[dalnet22]

dalnet22 on March 28, 2004 at 4:08 am #9047

Yesterday I ran the 4×200 and 4×400 at indoor state. With a torn groin, strained hamstring, strained patellar tendon, and a strained ankle tendon (not as bad as it sounds), I was able to run the starting leg of the 4×200 in 24.01. I know I can run sub 23 by the time we reach outdoor state, so I'm not worried about that.

However, in the 400, I got out fairly fast but not at the 200 speed. When I got to the 250, however, I felt like I hit a major wall. It was all I could do to just barely stay on my feet, and I had no kick whatsoever. I came in about 54.2, but I'd never felt that dead at the 250 in my life. The past two months I've been doing no more than 12 x 200s for workouts at about 26s with 2 minutes rest. This past week I started to increase my endurance by running 8 x 400s at about 70.

First of all, how can I stop hitting the wall so badly and so early? I went in with the mindset of getting out quickly for the first 6 seconds, keeping a decent pace, then moving the arms a lot the 3rd 100, then going all out, exaggerating my technique the last 100. Are my coach's workouts not enough, and if so what should he change? Here's what I've been running for an average week of practice:

Mon: 10 x 200s – 26s w / 2 min rest
Tues: 40 min long run, 6 x 30m lunges
Wed: 8 x 150s – 15s w / 3 min rest
Thurs: 40 min long run, 6 x 30m lunges
Fri: 8 200s – 25s w / 3 min rest
Sat: 40 min long run, 6 x 30m lunges
Sun: light run about 15 minutes

The only drills we do are skips, high knees, butt kickers, and zombies (keep your arms out and exaggerate your walking)

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[Jay Turner]

Jay Turner on March 28, 2004 at 5:56 am #26688

It seems like you are just another athlete in a long line of athletes that seem to not run ANY QUALITY workouts. You are doing distance training. . . . . or base training, depending on how you look at it. Either way, get some quality work in there.

[dalnet22]

dalnet22 on March 28, 2004 at 7:50 am #26689

What would you call a quality workout? My coach has always said we train for state in May, not for meets in March… in May our workouts will drop to 8 x 200s full blast with a minute rest. What should I change or do so I can run the 400 as well as possible? My coach is an All American in the 400, so I'm surprised to hear that his workouts aren't very good..?

[Jay Turner]

Jay Turner on March 28, 2004 at 8:24 am #26690

I am not saying whether his workouts are good or bad. I am saying that they MAY be inappropriate. You should have 2-3 days a week doing workouts that are high in intensity and long on rest. You don't have any of that.

[dalnet22]

dalnet22 on March 28, 2004 at 8:39 am #26691

You don't think 8 x 150 full blast with 2 min rest is high intensity and long rest? I've heard that doing 4 sets of 2 200s with 30 second rest between reps and 5 minutes between sets helps with the 400, is this true?

[alex]

alex on March 28, 2004 at 9:18 am #26692

I am highly skeptical of your workouts.

"Mon- 10*200 26s w/2 minutes rest"

Really? Even if you did this workout in spikes (which you probably shouldn't be doing with a workout this high in volume), you would have nearly World Class speed endurance/fitness. I do a similar workout in 29 seconds with 3-4 minutes rest, and my PB's are very close to yours.

"8*150's 15s w/3 min rest

Haha. A 15 second 150 is a world class time. We're too believe that you can do 8 of these with 3 minutes rest in between? If you could do ONE! 150 in 15 seconds you would run sub 21 without much difficulty.

"8*200's 25s w/3 min rest"

Again, you're pretty much doing 95% speed work with only 3 minutes rest. I do a workout like this in 28s with 4-5 minutes rest.

So to summarize you either:

a) Have the lactic tolerance of a world class distance runner (which seems as likely as you struggle at the end of the 400).

b) Aren't actually running the distances you say

c)Aren't actually running the times that you say.

d) Are taking more rest than you say.

Look, I'm not trying to accuse you of being a liar, nor am i saying that just because I can't do a workout that you can't either. However, we have almost identical PB's yet you somehow manage to do your workout's at a full 3-4 seconds faster than me with shorter rest over 200 meters. And I consider my fitness pretty good. Something doesn't add up.

[dalnet22]

dalnet22 on March 28, 2004 at 9:48 am #26693

26s for 200s and 15s for the 150s are goal times. I have run 8 x 200 workouts at 26-27 seconds each, but the 15s for 150s is tough. One time I ran 14.9 for the first two and then started coming in about 17 for the rest of them.

Again, I still am not sure what to do differently so I can run a faster 400. I ran 56 my freshman year, and as a senior my best is only 54… my best 200 as a freshman was 25.6, and my best 200 now is 23.6… I find it extremely irritating that my times haven't progressed much at all relative to my other teammates.

One of my teammates uses Endurox I believe right after workouts. Does this stuff really make much a difference in the recovery process?

[400stud]

400stud on March 28, 2004 at 10:42 am #26694

You're in my boat! I was in the exact same position….

Regardless, you need to start doing more real work (like SE and speed) and less "gut work" (10×200@26 with that short of rest is suicide). You might also wanna try to get some tempo in there to keep the CNS fresh. With all that work you're doing, your CNS is getting absolutely 0 rest.

Running 56 as a Frosh, you should've easily been able to go <50 by now.

[trck400mrnnr]

trck400mrnnr on March 28, 2004 at 11:12 am #26695

I ran a 55.2 as a frosh and as a sophomore i ran 52.5…and then after not running a 400m since august i came out and ran a 52.6 with only 8 days of practice. Now…i feel that few of my workouts are actually good workouts. My head coach told me i have the guts…and the endurance will come with the season…so now i should work on my speed to break 50.00. Does everyone agree with that? I mean…i ran a 52.5 and my fastes 200m time was a 23.4…which is much slower than the rest of the guys running 400s around my time.

What should i do? 100s, 80s…or less…to work on my speed?

[400stud]

400stud on March 28, 2004 at 11:43 am #26696

Lots of SE1 (150-300m reps).

[dalnet22]

dalnet22 on March 28, 2004 at 8:52 pm #26697

400stud, thanks for the help. What do you consider "real work real work (like SE and speed)"?

And what is an example of tempo that will keep my CNS fresh? I'm sorry, I learn best with examples.

It really hurts for you to say I should be sub 50 now… it makes me so mad that I haven't gotten any better.

[silentscream]

silentscream on March 28, 2004 at 10:36 pm #26698

That's strange, we've got a sophomore on our team who runs it sub 50, and all of the varsity quarter milers do the exact same workout, but I never see any of these "quality" workouts you guys talk about. All of our workout involve Medium Fartleks, Hills, lots of 200's, 2-5 mile jogs and strides, that sort of thing. We never do any distance less than 150 meters for our sprinting workouts. Are we not getting the kind of workouts that we need?

[400stud]

400stud on March 29, 2004 at 3:58 am #26699

Dalnet –
SE work and lots of it. SE2 (300-600m reps), SE1 (150-300m) and SE (80-150m….towards the end of season). These are like the staple workouts of 400m runners. These are run at very fast pace with long rests, but the quality is what counts. You may only do 2 or 3 reps in a given session, but if you can hit them all at a given, FAST, pace, then you'll gain more than doing 10 200's at 26 secs with little-to-no rest.

Tempo – Reps of 100-600m run at 65-75% with short rests (you can go short here b/c the only fatigue you'll really accumulate is muscular which is okay). Volume can get very high, but I wouldn't recommend starting high now.

Two example weeks with tempo and SE work…

Monday – SE1
Tuesday – Tempo
Wednesday – Recov/Regeneration
Thursday – SE2
Friday – Tempo

or:

Monday – SE1
Tuesday – Tempo
Wednesday – Hills or SE
Thursday – Tempo
Friday – SE2

The second example probably isn't the best, but some people like doing 5 days a week, Monday-Friday, so it's an example.

Don't worry about not being <50 yet. I should be around 51/50 right now myself, but injuries and poor training history have kept me at no faster than my measely 54.42. You'll get there in time, don't stress. Just be patient and after you finish high school, if you don't run for a college, you can always train with a club or alone and try to get your times down.

SilentScream – The kind of program you are describing is similar to one by Clyde Hart (coach at Baylor). It's a good program, but one thing you have to be weary of is that fact that athletes tend to burn out very quickly with that type of approach….Example – Darold Williamson. Absolutely outstanding 400m prospect out of HS, does big things Frosh year and since then is always up among the best, but can never reach #1 quite yet…and he's a Jr. now. Everyone has their own approach to the 400m, it's just a choice thing more than anything. But, typically you'll want to do more SE work and less "base"-like work (what you're doing).

[dalnet22]

dalnet22 on March 29, 2004 at 5:44 am #26700

Thanks for the info. I wish I could put this information to use, but even mentioning this stuff to my coach would piss him off. I've tried doing my own stuff in practice, but he just gets mad and says I'm only going to hurt myself.

[400stud]

400stud on March 29, 2004 at 8:03 am #26701

Tell him to sign up for the boards so we can talk to him 😀

[dalnet22]

dalnet22 on March 29, 2004 at 8:06 am #26702

Bahaha, yeah then he'd say he doesn't need to talk with anyone about his workouts. He's not very easy to negotiate with, especially when his workouts have worked over the past 16 years.

[400stud]

400stud on March 29, 2004 at 9:05 am #26703

They're obviously not working that well with the minimal improvement his athletes are seeing.

[dalnet22]

dalnet22 on March 29, 2004 at 9:08 am #26704

I've seen all of my other teammates significantly improve time wise each year. Juniors who ran a 57 freshman year are running 50-52 seconds now, while I've only improved by two seconds. I feel like it's only me who has never improved… very frustrating.

[400stud]

400stud on March 29, 2004 at 6:51 pm #26705

Then they need to individualize. For example, if you come from an 800m background and they come from a 200m background, and they revolved around training for the speed for the 400m, you're going to see minimal improvement and them significantly more b/c their strengths are being trained, while your weaknesses are. Possibility, maybe?

[dalnet22]

dalnet22 on March 29, 2004 at 7:07 pm #26706

I'm not sure I fully understand you, but the everyone I'm talking about did cross country or soccer in the fall. I've never run an 800 and have always run the 400 on down in track. The others have done the 800, 400, and 200.

[400stud]

400stud on March 30, 2004 at 2:43 am #26707

That's what I'm talking about. You're a speed-based 400m runner compared to the other strength-based 400m types (the 800m runners).

Speed-Based 400 runners – Rely on speed to get them through the race. They're the ones who go out extremely fast and then hold on for dear life at the end. Their strength is the beginning of the race and so they train the first 200-300m of their race as getting faster for this distance will be their keys to success. (Ex: Michael Johnson…he recognized his weakness as being his finish, but his tremendous start and 200m speed (19.36) is what boosted him to a WR time).

Strength-based 400 runners – They work the end of their race. They're the ones who are going to go out in about 24/25 and finish exactly the same. They have that tremendous "kick". They work the last 200m of the race as they know they may not have the speed to get you early, but they know they can pass in the end b/c of their tremendous strength and endurance.

These are the two-types of 400m runners (there's also 400mH types, but they're more a hybrid of the two and a special exception). Seeing as how you never run over 400m, you are the first type (more than likely) so you should train like the 1st type. The kids on your team who run the 800m as well should train like the second type.

Here is wherein the problem lies. Many coaches don't recognize the difference in the type of 400m runner, thus they train either one way or the other and hope that everyone gets better. By the looks of your workouts, you seem to be in the same predicament I was in. You're the "type-I" 400m runner being trained like a type-II. Your coaches seriously need to reconsider how they train ALL 400m runners on the team, rather than only a couple cos it's hurting you more than helping you.

[dalnet22]

dalnet22 on March 30, 2004 at 3:08 am #26708

I agree with your information, thanks. It's kinda odd because I was a very good cross country runner and feel better when I'm running an endurance race, yet I'm terrible at running the 800. In track I feel better when I'm sprinting a 100 or 200.

Today, my coach had me run with the other 400m runners. The workout was 6x300m with 2 1/2 minutes rest. The first 200 we had to come in at 30 seconds and then blow out the last 100. What do you think of that workout? I felt absolutely dead when I reached the 200, which makes no sense since two weeks ago I was running 200 workouts at 26-27 with little fatigue…?

[400stud]

400stud on March 30, 2004 at 4:01 am #26709

You're getting burned out. The workouts aren't suited for you. You should be doing 150-300m reps at a much higher pace but with much longer rests as well. These "kamikaze" workouts your coach has you do are pretty worthless in my opinion.

[dalnet22]

dalnet22 on March 30, 2004 at 4:14 am #26710

Is there any way I can reverse the burnout? Will eating better and not putting as much effort into practice help?

[400stud]

400stud on March 30, 2004 at 4:28 am #26711

Eating better will help with recovery, but not putting much effort into workouts will be pointless. Been there, done that.

I'd recommend you seriously sit down and talk to your coach, one-on-one, alone, and tell him your worries. If he's any kind of coach he'll be open-minded enough to listen and not just blow you off.

[dalnet22]

dalnet22 on March 30, 2004 at 4:36 am #26712

Alright, thanks again for the help. Lately my legs have felt tired constantly, like I'm always fatigued. I've worked too hard to go down due to burnout.. so hopefully I haven't lost it yet.

[400stud]

400stud on March 30, 2004 at 4:48 am #26713

I have faith that you haven't.

[silentscream]

silentscream on March 30, 2004 at 6:52 am #26714

What exactly is burning out?

[400stud]

400stud on March 30, 2004 at 9:45 am #26715

It's the result of doing too much too soon without giving your body any rest. It's basically a "plateau" or "stalemate" in your training.