Posted In: Sprints
I plan on working with some of my athletes during the off season (summer, fall). Would my short sprinters (100, 200, 100H) have to do different things than the 400 runners during the off season, or can they all do the same things?
Secondly, does anyone have any advice on how to train them during off season?
Any info that is needed about my athletes, just ask.
[i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
I plan on working with some of my athletes during the off season (summer, fall). Would my short sprinters (100, 200, 100H) have to do different things than the 400 runners during the off season, or can they all do the same things?Secondly, does anyone have any advice on how to train them during off season?
Any info that is needed about my athletes, just ask.
I liked to have the off season off to do absolutely nothing other than lift and do other things for fitness. The thought was, you are pounding your body for 9 months out of the year day in and day out. You can use that time to rest and recovery.
DT-
The thing is, as a high school T&F athlete, you are pounding less than as a college athlete (total months) so Gov's h.s. athletes could train in the summer, fall… just as if they were competing in another sport. I agree with you on the lines of a college T&F athlete…needing that volume of rest following a looong season!
In that case if they are in HS, I would carry their training as long as they would have a competition once in a while or they could feel that they are training without a reason. If you have summer meets, I would have them take time off from their final competition, which I would guess is the state meet until they feel totally fresh again which would probably be a week or so. After that time do two weeks of base work followed by speed and then carry the training as you normally would in a season.
So I would not need to completely start over regarding base work, longer tempo volume, etc.?
No, you wouldn't Gov just as long as when they begin their work after their big competition they feel fresh during the workouts.
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
I would start over with a new base, etc. simply to refresh the athlete. If you try picking up where you left off, you might scare off the athletes and they might start picking up bad habits….like not showing up to practice 😛
[i]Originally posted by drivephase1015[/i]
No, you wouldn't Gov just as long as when they begin their work after their big competition they feel fresh during the workouts.
Interesting contrast of thoughts. Anyone else wanna add anything to this?
mike, could you please repost what you had on here again.
Also, I don't remember whather I posted this or not.
Can you give me an example week of training in the off season for short AND long sprinters?
Is there any difference in what kind of training I should be doing in the summer and fall?
My suggestion would be based on what the athletes were intending on doing over the summer (no summer track vs. competing in summer track) and when the next time they would be able to resume sprint training (ranging anywhere from immediately to nine months later at the start of the next year's track season). If they are intending on running summer track, then I'd probably setup a double periodization model where they essentially go through another cycle of training starting with higher volume and gradually progressing to a second peak in late summer. If they weren't going to compete over summer, my recommendation would be based on when they would next be able to do sprint training. If they otherwise wouldn't do any sprint training until next year's track season, I might keep them running some track workouts just to minimize the down time between formal sprint training. If they were able to resume training in the fall, I'd probably suggest they take 1-2 weeks off and then begin on a lower intensity program with gradually increasing volume to prepare them for fall sprint training.
ELITETRACK Founder
[i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
My suggestion would be based on what the athletes were intending on doing over the summer (no summer track vs. competing in summer track) and when the next time they would be able to resume sprint training (ranging anywhere from immediately to nine months later at the start of the next year's track season). If they are intending on running summer track, then I'd probably setup a double periodization model where they essentially go through another cycle of training starting with higher volume and gradually progressing to a second peak in late summer. If they weren't going to compete over summer, my recommendation would be based on when they would next be able to do sprint training. If they otherwise wouldn't do any sprint training until next year's track season, I might keep them running some track workouts just to minimize the down time between formal sprint training. If they were able to resume training in the fall, I'd probably suggest they take 1-2 weeks off and then begin on a lower intensity program with gradually increasing volume to prepare them for fall sprint training.
State meet is June 4, 5. . . so they'll take a couple weeks off after that then start again.
They will not compete at all until January of next year (the start of our indoor season). However, they will be training during the summer and fall seasons to prepare.
Questions. . . .
1. How do I determine when they can next do sprint training? I thought you'd do that year round?
2. Could you give me a sample microcycle and/or mesocycle as to what it would look like?
I personally think you shouldn't start again until the start of the next school year if they're not running summer. Give the kids a break. Tell them if they wanna do anything go take a long jog or do a fartlek or something, but the kids train for months out of the year, so why not give them a break of some sort? I believe on the East Coast school starts in September, so why not start like 2-3 weeks before school starts and just let them sit and enjoy their summer?
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
I personally think you shouldn't start again until the start of the next school year if they're not running summer. Give the kids a break. Tell them if they wanna do anything go take a long jog or do a fartlek or something, but the kids train for months out of the year, so why not give them a break of some sort? I believe on the East Coast school starts in September, so why not start like 2-3 weeks before school starts and just let them sit and enjoy their summer?
I thought about that as well 400. I don't really know what I should do. That's why I'm asking you guys. Anyone else wanna add to this?
A couple more questions to add to this. . .
1. Am I understanding correctly that speed work is done year round, or only at a certain point in the season?
2. I usually go short-to-long with my program, although with 400m runners i'd prefer to go long-to-short. However, long-to-short is a pain to peak someone. Is it possible I could maybe go high in volume during the fall possibly even summer (long-to-short I suppose you'd call it?), then decrease volume the closer I get to January (indoor). From there, maybe I could work more on acceleration development and MaxV and increase volume until the Comp. phase (short-to-long I guess you'd call it?), which at that point I'd begin to get MORE specific in training (SE, Speed Endurance, etc.). Could and/or would this work?
1) Yes, speed work is usually done year-round, it just depends on what type of speed work we're talking about.
2) That program you suggests looks like a pyramid-hybrid. Start long, go short, reload, then start short and finish long. I don't really know if that'd work. However, now that I think about it, I'll proly be doing something like that next year. I'll be doing endurance first and speed second…..a pretty basic long-to-short program. But, my only question is, why is it so hard to peak in a long-to-short if the volume is steadily decreasing anyways?
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
1) Yes, speed work is usually done year-round, it just depends on what type of speed work we're talking about.
Can you elaborate more on this 400?
2) That program you suggests looks like a pyramid-hybrid. Start long, go short, reload, then start short and finish long. I don't really know if that'd work. However, now that I think about it, I'll proly be doing something like that next year. I'll be doing endurance first and speed second…..a pretty basic long-to-short program. But, my only question is, why is it so hard to peak in a long-to-short if the volume is steadily decreasing anyways?
That's just it 400. It's steadily decreasing, so when it's time to "taper" the workouts and cut back volume, you have already done so since day one. . . and as a result there is no "supercompensation" effect.
Why don't you think this "pyrymid hybrid" would work?
1) Speed work = Acc. Dev., MaxV, Short Speed. At least one should be done at any given point in the season.
2) How about this for a long-to-short setup…..Yes, you're cutting volume all year, but like 4 weeks before the peak meet increase the volume a lot and start cutting again to get that supercompensation effect during the peak meet? Anyone think that would work?
3) I didn't say I didn't think it would work, especially seeing as how I'm doing something similar. I just don't know if it would work. I'm driving myself crazy right now trying to plan it all out cos it gets complicated. But anything can work….it just takes planning.
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
1) Speed work = Acc. Dev., MaxV, Short Speed. At least one should be done at any given point in the season.
I thought that's what you meant. So I'd do acc. dev. . . . MaxV. . . . Short Speed.
This is how I have been doing it in the program that's in my journal correct?
2) How about this for a long-to-short setup…..Yes, you're cutting volume all year, but like 4 weeks before the peak meet increase the volume a lot and start cutting again to get that supercompensation effect during the peak meet? Anyone think that would work?
mike, what do you think of this setup?
I had a post in here somewhere that got lost during the updates.
A possible summer plan that could be pretty low key:
1) Day 1 acceleration dev. 10-20meters of acceleration efforts. Followed with some general lifts.
2) day 2. tempo oriented. 100 meter repeats @ 70%, increasing volume and/or also playing with rest intervals.
3) Day 3. Tech day, utilizing sprint specific drills to allow you to teach what you would like to see mechanically. Finish with general lifts.
As freshman and soph. many of issues may take care of themselves as they grow stronger.
2) How about this for a long-to-short setup…..Yes, you're cutting volume all year, but like 4 weeks before the peak meet increase the volume a lot and start cutting again to get that supercompensation effect during the peak meet? Anyone think that would work?
No. There are numerous reasons this would not work, the most general I can think of being that, increases in volume would require decreases in intensity, which is a key component of any plan, especially during comp phase. Trying to do maintain both would be inviting injury along with causing an overtraining affect. Neural development is lost with heavy loads of volume. your 'supercompensation' may actually be more of a mask of actual performance. you fatigue the body with high loads of volume, perform below what you are capable of, rest and then perform at the level you are capable of all the time thinking you "peaked".
My disclaimer- I'm not a big fan of long to short.
[i]Originally posted by todd[/i]
No. There are numerous reasons this would not work, the most general I can think of being that, increases in volume would require decreases in intensity, which is a key component of any plan, especially during comp phase. Trying to do maintain both would be inviting injury along with causing an overtraining affect. Neural development is lost with heavy loads of volume. your 'supercompensation' may actually be more of a mask of actual performance. you fatigue the body with high loads of volume, perform below what you are capable of, rest and then perform at the level you are capable of all the time thinking you "peaked".My disclaimer- I'm not a big fan of long to short.
After this season, neither am I. I had a 400 runner that I experimented long to short with, and it did EXACTLY what you just described above. From this point forward, I am going short to long with everyone, regardless of the event.
Here's the problem I had/have with that. If you are a 400m runner I feel that you need higher volume in the fall/off season. If you go short to long, how do the 400m runners get this much needed off season volume?
What about looking at short-to-long and long-to-short in a general sense? Instead of manipulating volumes with the plan, why not just manipulate what you are actually training.
Ex: Short-to-long – early emphasis on speed and strength (weights) development. Start low on volume and increase as time goes on. Move from one component to the other, etc. etc.
Long-to-Short – Early emphasis on endurance and strength (not necessarily weights) moving into speed work much later in the year.
With both you can start with low volume and increase as time goes on and then decrease towards peak.
Why not look at programs in this manner?
Gov, you can have higher volumes of tempo (both kinds) in the off-season with both setups. Just, short-to-long the emphasis will be on ext. first and vice versa with long-to-short.
Thoughts?
P.S. – Todd, thanks for the explanation.
The setup I had for the athletes is similar to what I have in my journal. It went in this order. . .
1. Fall season (GPP) – high volume (600-800m reps of extensive tempo), with a 4 week phase of intensive tempo; acceleration development training as well.
2. SPP – highest amount of TOTAL volume of the year (2200-3000m of TOTAL volume per ext. tempo session); starting to include some MaxV work.
3. Pre. Comp – slowly/gradually decreasing TOTAL volume of ext. tempo; starting to include Special Endurance II
4. Comp. Phase – TOTAL volume of ext. tempo continuing to decrease; introducing Special Endurance I
5. Introduction of Short Speed Endurance
Isn't what I described the same as what you are saying? If not then please correct me on whatever needs correcting.
600-800m reps seems really excessive for a short sprinter. Why not drop the rep distance (to no more than 250m) and increase the total reps. That way you don't get lots of sloppy foot contacts as the kids fatigue from the long reps.
ELITETRACK Founder
[i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
600-800m reps seems really excessive for a short sprinter. Why not drop the rep distance (to no more than 250m) and increase the total reps. That way you don't get lots of sloppy foot contacts as the kids fatigue from the long reps.
I apologize, I was referring to a 400m runner. I know this is a thread for short sprinters, but could you reply to what I had, except direct it toward 400m runners.
I have another question regarding off season training in addition to what I have posted in the above post. . .
I have 2 sprinters who play Volleyball in the fall and Basketball in the winter. I was telling them that if they could get some off season work in that their times will drop substantially next year. I was thinking of maybe doing something with them 2-3 days a week after their basketball/volleyball practices until they get back to track in the spring. They could go to volleyball/basketball practice right after school, then after they are done I was thinking I could go Monday/Wednesday/Friday with them and give them some accel. development one day, and intensive tempo the other one or two days. Would this be too much for them since they play another sport, or could I get away with it?
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
Let them play the other sports and have fun. Track isn't their life (yet :P) and they're still young and in HS. Let them enjoy their seasons and when they come out then train them. Unless they come to you asking for additional help, then just let them be.
They did come to me asking for additional help. 😀
So back to the question. . . . . can it work? Thoughts?
Well you didn't say that they came to you and asked for help 😛
My only beef is that I don't think someone should train for 2 sports simultaneously. I think it can have negative effects on one of the two being trained for. Also, look at what they're getting from each sport….
Basketball – Acc. Dev. and Plyos
Volleyball – Plyos
They're getting a good base in doing two sports, so I don't see the purpose in trying to train for another. If anything, get them in the weightroom and let the other sports take care of themselves. I think that'd be best rather than doing extra running.
Ok, here's the thing. The reason they came to me asking for help is because track and field is the only sport at this school that is actually good. I hate to say this, because it is a fellow coach, but they suck. ALL of the coaches except track (and that is NOT a biased statement by the way). No one has their athletes do any weight work, no plyos. All they do is play everyday (and even that is suspect – seriously). And my two sport athletes know this. So that's why they came asking for help. Because if I don't give it to them, they won't get any of this work in again until next March when they come back to me. Thoughts?
Ha ha. 400 we think alike. 😀
But these are young teenage girls I am dealing with. They tend to be rather fickle with things like that. I already suggested this to them a LONG time ago. They're weird. I don't know. . . .
Anyway, IF I WERE to try it (hypothetically speaking), what do you think? Mike you can add to this as well.
Ex: Short-to-long – early emphasis on speed and strength (weights) development. Start low on volume and increase as time goes on. Move from one component to the other, etc. etc.
I don't know if I agree 100% with this as a short to long approach. The length of reps will increase, but the total number will be cut back. If anything total training volume would decrease.
Long-to-Short – Early emphasis on endurance and strength (not necessarily weights) moving into speed work much later in the year.
Please explain "strength".
I think what he meant with the short to long approach todd is volume PER REP will increase, not necesarilly TOTAL volume.
When he says strength I think meaning strength endurance (high rep volume – 600-800m reps).
Todd – My short-to-long approach is that volume per TYPE of workout would increase weekly and then of course unload. Speed work (albeit acc. dev., maxV, etc.) would start at like 150m (hypothetically) at 15 reps of 10m and then move to 180m of MaxV (2x90m SFS). That's what I'm referring to. Obviously number of reps and total micro volume would decrease, but I'm looking at the intricate details, not the big picture.
As far as strength (not weightroom), I'm referring to intervals, int. tempo, long hills, things like that….i.e – strength endurance.
[i]Originally posted by drivephase1015[/i]
No, you wouldn't Gov just as long as when they begin their work after their big competition they feel fresh during the workouts.
drivephase,
Could I use the Wisc. Lx GPP program for my short sprinters (100-200 runners who do not run the 400), if I were to adjust some of the distances in the sessions to fit a 100-200 runners needs? Or would I be better off doing something completely different?
That's what I was thinking 400. I just wanted to get everyone's opinion on this. Thanks.
Any other thoughts?
Anyone else?
Well then back to my original question.
Can someone propose an offseason (summer AND fall) setup for a 100m/200m sprinter?
i just looked at your original question dagov, ehich was whether or not your 100/200 runners could do the same thing as your 400 runners. could you post what you plan for your 400 runners?
[i]Originally posted by cockysprinter[/i]
i just looked at your original question dagov, ehich was whether or not your 100/200 runners could do the same thing as your 400 runners. could you post what you plan for your 400 runners?
Go to CLASSICS, then click on the "Hypothetical Thought" forum. You'll see it there.
For my short sprinters during the summer (July, August, September), I was thinking about possibly doing some kind of training Monday through Friday but actually run only twice a week (Tuesday/Thursday), doing speed work only. The other three days (Monday/Wednesday/Friday) I plan on having these lifting days only.
What is everyone's thought's concerning this setup? My thinking was I could follow this setup, then in the fall begin my GPP with accel. dev., hills, tempo, etc. Anyone have an opinion?
[i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
For my short sprinters during the summer (July, August, September), I was thinking about possibly doing some kind of training Monday through Friday but actually run only twice a week (Tuesday/Thursday), doing speed work only. The other three days (Monday/Wednesday/Friday) I plan on having these lifting days only.What is everyone's thought's concerning this setup? My thinking was I could follow this setup, then in the fall begin my GPP with accel. dev., hills, tempo, etc. Anyone have an opinion?
If you followed this setup you'd probably want to make 1-2 of the weight lifting days low intensity circuit style work.
ELITETRACK Founder
[i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
[quote][i]Originally posted by DaGovernor[/i]
For my short sprinters during the summer (July, August, September), I was thinking about possibly doing some kind of training Monday through Friday but actually run only twice a week (Tuesday/Thursday), doing speed work only. The other three days (Monday/Wednesday/Friday) I plan on having these lifting days only.What is everyone's thought's concerning this setup? My thinking was I could follow this setup, then in the fall begin my GPP with accel. dev., hills, tempo, etc. Anyone have an opinion?
If you followed this setup you'd probably want to make 1-2 of the weight lifting days low intensity circuit style work. [/quote]That's exactly how it was going to be setup 400. One of the days (Wednesday perhaps) would be a gen. strength/core type session. So what do you think about this weekly setup, with speed work only during the summer as I suggested?
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
DaGov – You have Danny's other short sprinter programs. Have you thought about using those?Murai – Those short programs are exactly as you stated…lower volume, higher intensity.
I don't think I ever got Danny's program for short sprinters. You know where I can get it?
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
He's posted two of his own on the boards already, plus I have his workouts from this past season on my hardrive as well.
I have the 400m workouts. Could you pass along the short sprinter sessions please. Thanks in advance.
yeah id like to see those too
alright i sent it to the address that it shows on the email button.
thanks 400
