[scottyo]

scottyo on June 16, 2004 at 4:03 am #9419

Instead of doing my short to long 200/400 approach next year, on advice from my coach and others ive decided to do 400/800. As i am (and my coach) relatively inexperienced in 800m prep im looking for some advice on combining the two, not wanting to commit myself fully to a middle distance program and losing sprint speed.
Ive looked up 400/800 threads and tried to research it but not found enough to enable me to plan anything. If anyone has any info/links or a suggested set up for the year that would be great.

Stats : 20yr old (training age of 1 and a half),PRs200m- 24.0 400m-51.9, height- 6'1, weight- 172

[crazy400]

crazy400 on June 16, 2004 at 6:54 am #29453

I kinda am in the same predicament because i am a 2/4 guy but everyone tells me that my 800 could be sick so i ran it for the first time sunday in 1:59 and now i want to run it but my i do not want to lose speed for my 400 because I absolutely love that race
400-49.7

[scottyo]

scottyo on June 23, 2004 at 1:42 am #29454

Train as 400/800 although im changing my mind all the time. It really sucks that im so indecisive!! Anyway, my basic objective is to run a fast 400m and have a second event as the 400m is not always available in meets on the local circuit. Problem is my 200m sucks- 24.0 but my endurance is good. Any thoughts 400st ?

[400stud]

400stud on June 23, 2004 at 1:53 am #29455

Dude, your 200/400 times are right on. As a 24.0 runner you should be running 51/52 (frown on me :(), so I think you should focus on speed development as it would best help your 400 time come down. Work the 100/200 speed and speed endurance while doing one endurance-maintenance session a week to keep the 400 time down.

[scottyo]

scottyo on June 23, 2004 at 2:29 am #29456

I see. Yeah, my speed does seem to suck probably cause my technique is bad and i dont feel like im goin too fast. Anyway, another reason for wanting to do 800s as well is due to the fact that it fits in with my coaches training (ridiculous, hard intensive tempo) but seeing as though all the other athletes are leaving im thinking of going on my own too so 800s are probably gonna be chucked.

The only concern i have is losing fitness, the short to long speed heavy approach seems awesome for short sprinters but am not convinced about its effectiveness for long guys. Nonetheless i am willing to give it a good shot;

GPP (so far);

Monday- Acc. dev. & Weights
Tues- Tempo
Wed- Int tempo- 10*200 @ 29 &weights
Thurs- Tempo
Fri- (no idea?? Suggestions?) & weights

[400stud]

400stud on June 23, 2004 at 3:53 am #29457

For Friday stick in hills or bleachers.

As for the short-to-long approach for long guys, it works out beautifully if you're in a situation like you are….ok speed, great endurance. In fact, you really don't have to do a short-to-long approach moreso than an ends to middle approach.

Acc. Dev. –> MaxV –> Short Speed

and at the same time…

Int. Tempo –> Split Runs/Depletions (if wanted) –> SE2 –> SE1 –> SE

This would allow you to attack speed while maintaining endurance and fitness, plus with this approach, being in your situation, it'd be perfect becuase your endurance is already good as it is, and so towards the end of the season when you're focusuing on SE/SE1 and Short speed your 200m time should really come down and subsequently your 400m time will come down as well.

I know from experience that short-to-long or ends-to-middle training is only good for more developed athletes. Ones like myself (good speed, poor endurance) should go long-to-short (as I will be this upcoming season) to address their weaknesses first.

Go ends-to-middle…you'll see it works.

[scottyo]

scottyo on June 29, 2004 at 12:13 am #29458

Cheers 400,

my indoor 2005 set up looks something like this (please critique);

GPP:4-6 weeks- As above (although not sure what sort of workout to do for hills..distance/ rest etc)

SPP: 8 weeks

Monday: Max Vel.
6*30 fly ins, 4*20 fly ins,
plyometrics;
standing long jumps- 5*2
standing triple jump- 3
Single leg hops-3*6
Bounding- 3*30m
Weights: Bench, Squat, Clean- 3 sets of 3-5

Tuesday: tempo

Wed: Split runs- 2*450 (150+200+100)
Weights: Hang clean, Push press, Front squat- 3 sets of 3-5

Thursday: tempo

Friday:???Hills again or could i do speed endurance or speed??? Plus weights and plyos as monday

Saturday:30 mins general activity

Criticism is more than welcome..cheers

[400stud]

400stud on June 29, 2004 at 1:13 am #29459

1) Your GPP is fine. As for hills, I'd probably do long hills for the lactic tolerance / strength work and if you decide to do them during SPP (which is probably a good idea since indoor season isn't nearly as important as outdoor and so you should use it more for conditioning than for competitive training) start in with short hills for that quick burst and acceleration development.

2) Your SPP is OK….You're doing WAY too many MaxV reps to be of any good. With MaxV it's quality over quantity. A good session will only have 2-3 (maybe 4 if you're REALLY good) reps total. And seeing as how you're a more underdeveloped sprinter (as most are), you should stick to flying 20's, not 30's. You don't have the speed yet to be messing with 30's. Too much volume on plyos.

3) Weights looks good, except exactly what are you trying to accomplish? Are you doing hypertrophy (hopefully not) MaxS, maintenance, power-speed? 3-5 is usually MaxS, but it depends on the weight used.

[Danny Tutskey]

Danny Tutskey on June 29, 2004 at 1:32 am #29460

I agree that the plyos would be too much. If you do them, just do them 1x a week for the plyos that you have listed. You could maybe look at including some box jumps, hurdles, stadium stairs on another day. For flying runs I would start with 10m-20m. I would look at some more variation in the oly. lifts. Maybe some high pulls with a clean or snatch grip, cleans off an 18' in. box. Maybe some snatch and hang snatch, DB snatch, snatch off 18 in. box.

As far as your GPP I would include some hills, sleds, stairs in part of some acc. dev. You can do those exercise 3x per week if you'd want.

Monday – Acc. dev. (sled pulls)
Tuesday – 1000m of work like 2×500
Wednesday – 1200m of work like 6x200m
Thursday – Acc. dev. (hills)
Friday – Acc. dev. (sleds)

[CoachKW]

CoachKW on June 29, 2004 at 1:38 am #29461

My thoughts on your program are most likely biased toward the endurance side. That being said, my opinion is that people make jumps in the 400 because their special endurance improves not because their top end speed improves. Top end speed improvement can surely help, but you don't run much of the 400 at top end speed. The key is to run right below that red line as efficiently as possible (both biomechanically and metabolically).

I like to see long sprinters who aspire to run the 800 (which is just a longer sprint really) do 2-3 mile tempo runs during GPP. This will help you to do what most sprinters moving up dread and that is to add volume to your extensive tempo sessions without sacrificing speed or biomechanical efficiency. I also like the hill sessions so long as you keep the quality high.

To address the SE needs, I want to know what you can run a 600 in. You have the right idea with split runs, but you can make them more 800 specific by doing 500-300-150 or 600-200. This will help you learn how to carry your speed because lets face it, if you can run 51 for 400 and only 1:58 for 800 you need SE, but to build that, you need to combine speed endurance and development with aerobic threshold work. The threshold work will allow you to work at higher and higher speeds before you significantly incur high levels of acidosis. So, what you are doing is staving off the point at which it really hurts while also working on tolerating it when it does get to that point. Your toleration will be both psychological and physiological. We've all been to that point of no return in races when we've gone out too fast.

Your speed development sessions can still be short, but I like to do speed endurance with 60's, 70's and even 80's at times. To throw them a bone, I have them do these out of blocks into a turn to keep in touch with the 400 side of things.

I hope this was helpful

:tumble:

[400stud]

400stud on June 29, 2004 at 3:23 am #29462

Nice thoughts KW. My only argument is that thought top-end speed may not be necessary for the 400m in the fact that you'll never reach MaxV (or shouldn't anyways), isn't speed reserve a key? In other words, the faster you're ABLE to go, the faster you will be going at a "slower" speed? Make sense?

[CoachKW]

CoachKW on June 29, 2004 at 4:11 am #29463

I totally agree with the speed reserve thing. The difference is probably our thoughts on how it's boosted. I don't think that working the PC energy system boosts it, but rather it's the SE work that boosts speed reserve in the 400.

Mike, JJ, KT?

[400stud]

400stud on June 29, 2004 at 4:25 am #29464

For the 400m, I think SE is the staple of any program. The only thing is, how can you expect to develop great speed reserve if your speed isn't there to begin with? That's why my thoughts are that (unless speed is not the issue but rather strength, like in my case) that speed (in the form of Acc. Dev. and maybe some MaxV later on down the line) should be addressed during summer and fall periods to start developing that speed necessary for a fast 100m, which, with the help of SE, translates to fast 200 and 400m times.

Thoughts?

[scottyo]

scottyo on June 30, 2004 at 1:35 am #29465

Thanks guys..awesome help.

Ok, in light of the above my SPP will look something like this;

M- Max vel. 4* flying 20s, standing LJ* 5, single leg hops 2*6 and 2*30m bounds
T- Tempo
W-Special end. (as above)
Th-Tempo
F- Hills- 6* 30m ok???

Weights on CNS days with more variation (high pulls, snatch etc) (max strength is the aim btw..weights will be heavy)

As for 800m ive decided to work on my speed this year and shoot for 200/400. Thanks for the advice KW, i really hope to be doing 800m somewhere along the road so i will bear all that you said in mind.

I would also like to throw in some A &B drills as well as core mobility and strength.

Cheers:cool:

[CoachKW]

CoachKW on June 30, 2004 at 5:57 am #29466

Scottyo, as a part of your 200/400 program, why don't you consider running a leg on your team's 4 x 8 just to get some strength work in. It's a good way to work on SE in a fun way. We did that with our sprinters and it couldn't have hurt their speed too much as one was Ohio hs DI 100 meter champion this year.

Good luck with whatever you race

[400stud]

400stud on June 30, 2004 at 8:36 am #29467

I agree. Use meets as SE and have fun with them. It's a good way to get good work in, in a way you can enjoy.

[scottyo]

scottyo on June 30, 2004 at 11:26 pm #29468

4 by 800??? I had no idea these existed!!..im not sure if these are run in UK. Thanks for suggestion though.

As far as the set up above is concerned is this ok?? Im really concerned about the results as ive never really done anything like this in terms of quality. To give you a contrast as to what i was doing before, here is my coaches set up (feel free to destroy)

Tuesday- 6*450 (5 mins)/ 3*2*300s (walk between reps rest)
Thursday- 5*300 (6-8 mins)/ 3*4*200 (1 min between reps)
Friday- Weights- Bench, Squats, Cleans (all 5,4,3,2,1)
Sunday- 6*150 (5 mins)

Could someone also explain to me what i should think about working on during pre-comp and comp periods as im a little confused. I get the impression that the emphasis is on maintaining gains so would i be right in saying that all volume is reduced??

Sorry to burden everyone with endless questions but i really appreciate the advice.