posted on 7-6-2002 at 03:29 AM by flight05
Triple Jumping
Hi im new to this board..so be kind
i know mike has a lot of expretise in this area so im going to throw it out there. Im only 16 and am wondering:
what are the best tips you can give a triple jumper?
how can i preserve all my speed and complete a successful triple jump without losing any speed?
what are the best exercises/drills for TJ?
(bounding, depth jumps)
the coaches in my region are useless and i would have to drive 5 hours away to toronto to get decent coaching most likely!
Thanks a lot!
Rob
================================================================
posted on 7-6-2002 at 08:49 PM by flight05
follow up question…
Follow up question…
Do you include a lot of 200 metre sprints in your training at LSU? I heard that 200’s create that same rhythm for TJ.
ALSO: I use a double arm swing on my hop phase, is this the best technique? I’m not sure. (I have a jumping style similar to Julian Kapek, [check his hop phase]except i dont jump nearly as far…)
THANKS
rob
================================================================
posted on 7-7-2002 at 02:47 PM by Mike
Some TJ suggestions
For the list, here is a response I sent to Rob. General suggestions:
-Don’t do any distance running stuff- a lot of high school age kids do
this and it does them no good if they want to be their best in a power
event such as TJ.
-Get a good coach. As I’m sure you’re well aware of, TJing is one of
the most technical events in T & F.
-Get faster!
-Learn to run a smooth and consistent approach.
-Often times what you think is the problem is not really the
problem…the problem is really caused by something else earlier on,
so keep your mind ticking to figure our what may be at the root of
your problems.
More specifically:
-Try to distribute effort equally during the 3 phases. This doesn’t
mean = distances, but as I’m sure you realize, you don’t want to burn
all your fuel in the hop and sputter out on the step & jump. Speed
maintenance is very key.
-Don’t be in a rush to cycle the leg through. This is opposite to what
a lot of coaches teach but we’ve had excellent success with this.
-Feel like you are projecting your hips beyond the takeoff foot. Do
this for each takeoff. It will actually feel slower because you’ll be
keeping your foot contact on the ground fractionally longer. The
benefit is that you will get far greater horizontal displacement and
better speed maintenance.
-It sometimes helps if the first two phases have a flatter takeoff
angle. This will help speed maintenance also. Take a look at Jonathan
Edwards (the world record holder)- he looks like he is skipping across
the ground like a rock is skipped across the surface of the water. His
speed maintenance is unparalled in the event. He isn’t the fastest guy
out there but he sets up his phases and maintains his speed better
than everyone else.
-There are a billion TJ drills. I really don’t have any favorites. The
selection of drills should be dependent on your strengths and
weaknesses and as such I can’t really say too much for you since I’ve
never seen you jump.
I’ll write more in bit.
================================================================
posted on 7-8-2002 at 05:57 AM by Mike
TJ advice
Rob-
If you don’t have a coach and are looking to educate yourself on the TJ you may want to try getting a video. Boo Schexnayder is probably the best TJ coach in the world (multiple national champions in both the men’s and women’s TJ) and he has an excellent video out on the TJ. Here is a site that sells this video: https://www.sportsnationvideo.com/lonjumtripju.html
You may want to check out that video and it may also be helpful to get some of the better books on TJ and really learn your event. One mistake a lot of people make is just simply looking at elite athletes and assuming they are doing everything right. This is seldom ever the case. Yes, these individiduals are highly skilled but often times they may just be a one-in-a-million athlete that can perform well in spite of their technical deficiencies. If you understand the technique of your event first, then you can look at these elite performances and learn from their technical deficiencies as well as their proficiencies.
As for the use of the arms, I think it’s more of a personal thing. If it does not disturb postural integrity or drastically decrease your speed, than a double-arm takeoff can certainly be more beneficial than a single arm takeoff. The problem is that not everyone can handle it without losing too much speed or throwing off the timing and balance of their jump. Elite performances have been achieved with both arm swings and I think it would be hard to say that one is better than the other for all athletes. Just see what works for you.
As for 200s, yes we do them but it’s not for anything to do with the rhythm of the jump. We do them for the conditioning benefits. We do however do tons of runway work from short, medium and competition approach lengths. I think that this is the best way to develop the rhythm of the approach….if you want to be a better swimmer, don’t spend all your time on a bike….if you want to have a better approach…..practice the approach!
================================================================
posted on 7-8-2002 at 06:00 PM by Mart
Rob-
I don’t TJ myself, but a friend of mine was US youth champ and is one of the better jumpers in D. II. Our club coach attributes a lot of his success to impressive leg strength (650lb squat @ bw of 150) and great core (abs & back) strength. I guess these would be good things to especially focus on. Also, as Mr. Young said, TJ requires a great coach to work with you. I would suggest trying to find one in your area, because it takes so much correction to perfect your form.
================================================================
posted on 7-8-2002 at 06:34 PM by Mike
Good points Mart-
Strength is important, especially at the developmental levels. It’s good to think of strength as a foundation on which to develop power and speed.
Core strength is also particularly important to the TJ because of the extreme forces that are imparted to the athlete in every phase. The landings and subsequent takeoffs cause unbalanced forces (becauses they are transferred from the ground to the body through a single and unbalanced contact point–> a single foot on one side of the athlete’s body) that have the potential to destroy a TJer’s technique. The arm swing helps to counteract the twisting of the shoulders that results, but the effectiveness of the arm swing is not only related to the magnitude and force of the swing, but also to the transfer of this swing to the torso and lower body. Core strength and stiffness should aid in this transfer and make the arm swing more effective.
================================================================
posted on 7-8-2002 at 08:27 PM by flight05
THANKS
Thanks a lot all around!
Do you think i should focus more on speed or power?
because i thought speed was more important (jonathan edwards) so thats what im doing. Im doing short speed work like 20 metre sprints and 200 hurdle tempo runs @70% right now.
ALSO: should i jump from a board that i end up half way through the pit? Or should i just want to barely make it into the pit?
Thanks
PS- At my school there is not an intelligent coach available
(they’re too busy worrying about the distance runners and our scholarship 400m athlete (to Wisconsin) so jumps is not priority) At
all competitions (when they do watch me[we have 4 coaches in total]), they just tell me to try harder when im not in the lead!
PPS- i didnt become a triple jumper over time…it kinda happened over night!
One meet i just got a PB of 11.41 metres and then a week later
PPPS that story happened in June, like last month…
Thanks a lot for staying awake during my boring story…
~peace~
Thanks a lot
ROB
================================================================
posted on 7-11-2002 at 01:55 PM by flight05
1. Do you think i should focus more on speed or power?
because i thought speed was more important (jonathan edwards) so thats what im doing.
2. Should i jump from a board so that i end up half way through the pit? Or should i just want to barely make it into the pit?
3. Would balance/stabilizer training be beneficial? How would i do that?
4. How can i strengthen my ankles?
================================================================
posted on 7-11-2002 at 11:39 PM by Mike
1. Do you think i should focus more on speed or power?
because i thought speed was more important (jonathan edwards) so thats what im doing.
Speed maintenance is the most important thing. Jonathan Edwards is pretty fast, but far from the fastest guy out there. What separates him from everyone else is that he maintains the speed he has at the board through all the phases of the jump.
So to answer your question, yes, speed is very important but what you are referring to (Edwards) is speed maintenance. I don’t really think you can separate speed and power too much. Speed refers to doing things at high velocity and power is basically referring to moving some kind of load quickly (that load might even be your own body). I don’t necessarily think there is a need to emphasize one over the other unless there is a serious deficiency in one or the other.
2. Should i jump from a board so that i end up half way through the pit? Or should i just want to barely make it into the pit?
For the most part, I’d jump so that you easily make it into the pit. Not only is this safer, but when you’re always stretching to reach the pit it could cause serious problems with your technique.
3. Would balance/stabilizer training be beneficial? How would i do that?
Balance and stability stuff may be somewhat beneficial. If you did want to do it, you could do some single leg stands, physioball exercises, etc.
4. How can i strengthen my ankles?
Here are a few ideas: get a stretch band, put it around your foot, and then write the alphabet with your toes. You could also try walking in sand, doing various types of isometric contractions with you foot in different positions, or some of the stability stuff will also strengthen the ankles. Just as an aside- why do you think your ankles need strengthening?
================================================================
posted on 7-13-2002 at 12:06 AM by Mart
Mr. Young,
I was just wondering what kinds of drills (I hesitate to use this word here) you would use to introduce someone who doesn’t have much jumping background to long jumping and especially triple jumping? I have relativly good speed, but I have trouble translating this into distance in the LJ. I want to try and see if I can improve this before I decide whether I want to commit to serious jump training ( and spending less time on the sprints).
================================================================
posted on 7-13-2002 at 05:23 AM by Mike
Mart-
I think the most fundamental elements of the jumps are learning how to set-u
p a correct takeoff (penultimate step) and how to actually takeoff (takeoff foot mechanics and swinging segment usage).
You are experiencing a very common problem–> having difficulty setting up a jump while you are running at high velocities. Setting up a jump is indeed a natural movement, but doing so at high speeds is not. Jumping for height (as in HJ) or distance (as in TJ, LJ) while running at near max velocities is something most people will need time to acquant themselves with. The following set of drills are simple and should help to accomplish this goal:
run-run-jump, where you run a couple strides and then go into a penultimate step and takeoff
short approach takeoffs emphasizing proper penultimate mechanics as well as takeoff foot action and swinging segment usage
very low level single support plyos emphasizing the heel-midfoot-toe action of a proper takeoff
================================================================
posted on 7-13-2002 at 01:10 PM by Mart
Thanks very much!
================================================================
posted on 7-19-2002 at 01:06 PM by flight05
flat foot plant
during which phases should i use the flat foot plant?
I was taught to jump off of the balls of my feet?
Inside one of your articles it express that you should have a flat take off foot on your last phase. Why would a flat foot plant be beneficial?
thanks,
rob
================================================================
posted on 7-19-2002 at 08:20 PM by mike
takeoff mechanics
Every phase of the TJ should have either a flat foot takeoff (midfoot–>toe action) or a heel-midfoot-toe takeoff. In fact, every takeoff for every jump (LJ, PV, HJ, TJ) should be done in this manner. The reason for this is 2 fold:
1. This will increase contact time with the ground. This might sound like a bad thing but it isn’t. You want to increase contact time so that you will be able to impart sufficient vertical impulses to the ground. The purpose of the approach is to develop horizontal velocity. Just prior to takeoff the jumper should be near maximal velocity. Because you want to project yourself in the air, a purely horizontal vector is not sufficient, you will need a vertical component. This vertical component comes from the takeoff mechanics. At takeoff you want to be applying big vertical forces so that you can turn your body into a projectile and make it actually leave the ground. The problem is that the horizontal velocity you developed in your approach will limit your ability to apply vertical forces because as you get faster your ground contact time will get shorter and the movement of your center of mass will get faster. The flat footed or heel–>toe takeoff allows you to have more time on the ground to generate those vertical forces.
2. The second reason that a flat footed or heel–> toe takeoff would be advantageous is because the vertical forces needed to create a big takeoff would exceed the strength of most people’s gastroc-soleus (calve) muscles. As a result, even though you want to come down on your toe and take off of your toe, the forces you’d want to put into the board would make your heel hit the ground anyhow. In so doing, you’d lose the potential to impart maximal forces to the board. Here’s a simple exercise to illustrate this point: try to do heavy leg presses by pressing up through your toes instead of through your heels (flat footed).
================================================================
posted on 7-19-2002 at 10:10 PM by flight05
press
So which phase should I use a midfoot-toe take off and when should I use the heel-toe takeoff? I know i should use a heel-toe takeoff for LJ but what about TJ? heel-toe for all phases or just the last one?
When I do leg presses I generate more power using my toes as well…
thanks
rob
===============================================
=================
posted on 7-22-2002 at 07:11 PM by mike
Whether ou do flat footed or heel–> toe is a matter of preference and ankle/achilles tendon flexibility. Also, to go back to my leg press example…are you doing the whole movement up on the balls of your toes or are you pressing through flat feet and then coming up onto your toes when you’ve almost completed the movement. If you’re doing the former and still handling the same amount of weight, then either you are pretty amazing (very strong calves) or are not using enough weight. If it is the latter, then that would just be supporting my point since you’d be going from a flat foot and then pushing off your toes after you’ve already achieved almost complete leg and hip extension.
================================================================
posted on 7-22-2002 at 09:47 PM by flight05
later
it was the later, i generate more power when i execute the leg press using my calves AND quads.
so do reccomend one technique in TJ takeoffs over the other? Using the leg press info, i can push more with heel–>toe than i can flat footed, so maybe i should use heel toe all of the time in jumping?
Point me in the right direction Mike!
Rob
================================================================
posted on 7-22-2002 at 10:37 PM by todd
Rob
Flat foot or heel are both going to be different types of landings (but minimally different) that then lead into your takeoff. In the takeoff the toe will be the last thing to leave the ground as you push off.
What Mike is saying (correct me if I’m wrong Mike), is that you land either with a slight heel touchdown first which then rolls to flat foot to toe push off or you can land flat foot which then rolls to toe push off. The toe push off occurs in both.
so heel—> toe and flat foot—> toe
Either way the toe off occurs at near complete leg extension, after the more proximal joints of the leg have been used first.
Landing on your toes in each phase is like doing the leg press with just your toes and not using your quads. Use the big muscles.
Is one better than the other- like Mike said personal preference and ankle flexibility. Don’t confuse heel land with having your leg way out in front of you on landing though.
Use it for all phases.
================================================================
posted on 7-23-2002 at 07:34 PM by flight05
thanks!
rob
================================================================
posted on 7-24-2002 at 06:01 PM by Mike
Nice explanation Todd….that’s exactly what I meant. Every takeoff no matter how it is done will be finished with the athlete taking off of the toes at the point of hip and leg extension. The difference is that in the 2 landing / takeoffs that Todd and I are referring, to is that in these, you will land on either the heel or the midfoot BEFORE pushing off on the balls of the toes; rather than landing on the toes and taking off on the toes.
================================================================
posted on 7-25-2002 at 08:43 PM by Flight05
does anybody have video of jonathan edwards jumping in slow motion?
all i can find is what is on this site of his WR https://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~riceroo/media.htm
i cant view the other ones for some odd reason..
thanks!
================================================================
posted on 7-25-2002 at 09:26 PM by mike
This site has some video of Edwards:
< https://www.biomechanics.mai.ku.dk/triple.htm >
================================================================
posted on 7-26-2002 at 01:54 AM by flight05
cool, thanks!
any others?
================================================================
posted on 7-26-2002 at 10:02 PM by Daniel Fichter
triple Jump
r
My advice to a triple jumper is making sure they get plenty of prep work. Their body takes a pounding from constant jumping. Ease into it. We do a series of General Prep Work that strengthens areas in need. A good triple jumper is a healthy triple jumper!!!
Good Luck,
Dan Fichter
http://www.wannagetfast.com
NY
================================================================
posted on 7-27-2002 at 02:33 AM by flight05
what kind of GPP do u do with your TJ athletes? what exercises and cues do u have them do/learn?
thanks rob
================================================================
posted on 7-29-2002 at 07:15 PM by Mike
There’s no big secrets for GPP. Just keep your workouts lower in intensity/load, slightly higher in volume, and don’t do anything too specific. In essence, the purpose of GPP is preparing you to do the serious training that will take place later in the year. If you didn’t do some kind of GPP or include a GPP phase into your training you wouldn’t be able to jump right into intense training without getting injured. Some ideas for GPP are general strength circuits, dynamic mobility circuits, medball circuits, body building circuits, low-intensity plyos, longer intervals/repeats. or pool workouts. Get creative with it. GPP can be the most fun part of the training year.
posted on 8-5-2002 at 12:35 AM by Dan
Like Mike said GPP can come in a variety of different forms. I like body weight movements that strengthen joints and tendons to prepare you for the long season. Afterall, we are using our body and its support systems, why not get it ready! We raise the work capacity and prepare the body for jumping.
Good luck
Dan Fichter
http://www.wannagetfast.com
================================================================
posted on 7-29-2002 at 07:15 PM by Mike
There’s no big secrets for GPP. Just keep your workouts lower in intensity/load, slightly higher in volume, and don’t do anything too specific. In essence, the purpose of GPP is preparing you to do the serious training that will take place later in the year. If you didn’t do some kind of GPP or include a GPP phase into your training you wouldn’t be able to jump right into intense training without getting injured. Some ideas for GPP are general strength circuits, dynamic mobility circuits, medball circuits, body building circuits, low-intensity plyos, longer intervals/repeats. or pool workouts. Get creative with it. GPP can be the most fun part of the training year.
posted on 8-5-2002 at 12:35 AM by Dan
================================================================
Like Mike said GPP can come in a variety of different forms. I like body weight movements that strengthen joints and tendons to prepare you for the long season. Afterall, we are using our body and its support systems, why not get it ready! We raise the work capacity and prepare the body for jumping.
Good luck
Dan Fichter
http://www.wannagetfast.com
================================================================
posted on 8-16-2002 at 11:25 PM by Flight05
another q:
using carl lewis.com as my guide, i notice that carl displaces his leg to the side on his penultimate stride. i know that the second last stride is supposed to be longer, but to the side?
i use carl because he jumps off the same foot as me and starts in the sprints with the same foot as me also.
thanks
================================================================
posted on 8-19-2002 at 03:08 PM by Mike
I’m pretty certain Carl does this to lower his center of mass prior to takeoff. Planting a leg off to the side will accomplish this. If you have trouble seeing this, picture a folding table (the kind with legs that form an “X”). The closer the base of the legs get, the higher the table top will be. The further apart the legs get (much like a leg moving out and away from under the COM) the low
er the table gets. This is good in a table because it has two sets of opposing legs. One leg will offset the horizontal pushing of the opposing leg and the table will actually be more stable. In the case of a single support system however, moving the point of contact out from under the COM will make you lower, but because there is no counter-acting force (no opposing leg on the ground) the COM will be pushed away from where the foot contact was made. That is, if I place my foot way out to the right, my COM will move to the left.
I don’t think this would be the best way to do it by any means. It introduces new forces into the jump (sideways pushing) that do not contribute to the takeoff (I’m referring to the forces and not the advantageous lower body position). In fact, I would suspect that in most people it would seriously take away from the jump because it would slow down takeoff velocity and force the athlete to either correct the sideways pushing so that they can get their feet back under their COM, or takeoff from a position where their foot is not under the COM at any point during takeoff (TERRIBLE!).
Having said all that, who am I to say Carl Lewis is doing it wrong. He’s the greatest LJer of all time. Perhaps this was one of the ways he was able to manage his speed so that he could set up a good takeoff. I wouldn’t recomend it though unless you have Lewis-like speed. And if you have this kind of speed please give me a call. I’d love to coach you.
================================================================
posted on 8-25-2002 at 02:52 PM by Flight05
What seems wrong with Phillips Idowu’s form?
He seems to me like during his step phase his right foot flings to the side while its in the air…seems odd to me!
He also uses a one arm take off in his hop and step phases which is what i used to do..i get more distance using 2 arms though..
Phillips Idowu VIDEO
(click on masterclass broadband)
================================================================
posted on 8-27-2002 at 02:57 PM by Mike
I can’t seem to get the video but what I can tell you is this; during the flight phase, body part / segment position has virtually no effect on the flight parabola of the center of mass. As a result, body parts / segments that are strangely positioned while in flight are only a concern if one of the following results:
1. they shift the center of mass so dramatically that it causes rotations of the body around the center of mass which put the athlete into a poor position for takeoff, landing, the next footstrike, etc.
2. they deviate so far from where they should be that they can’t ‘recover’ to get back into a good position for effective takeoff, landing, footstrike, etc.
================================================================
posted on 8-27-2002 at 08:09 PM by Flight05
thanks mike, i mean it makes sense if he is jumping 17whatever metres because it sure isnt effecting his performance.
after reviewing jonathan edwards technique in his first two phases of his TJ he also uses a single arm takeoff technique…this puzzles me because i thought you generate more power using two arms…now i am wondering if you should use the single arm takeoff for the first two phases to PRESERVE SPEED? maybe this could help me (i dont know) but what if i used the single arm technique for just the hop phase and use 2 arms for the step phase….
i will try this out in my backyard right now!
thanks!
================================================================
posted on 8-29-2002 at 04:58 PM by Mike
Flight,
You’re right about the double arm takeoff generating more power. The drawback it that is can cause serious deviations from sprinting technique for some athletes. As a result, the speed they lose prior to takeoff (in the time period where they must ‘gather’ their arms for a double arm takeoff) may negate the extra l
ift they get from the double arm takeoff. Another advantage of a single arm takeoff is that it better balances the legs. In a single arm takeoff, as one leg goes forward, the opposite arm opposes this movement and better stabilizes the body.
I’ve seen great jumpers use all different kinds of arm swing patterns during the 3 phases of the TJ. I think ultimately it comes down to what works best for the individual.
================================================================
posted on 2-2-2003 at 05:10 AM by Mike
Stone Skipping & TJ
For those of us willing to put up with some elementary physics, this was posted to another list and could very well have some practical application to the TJ….
Most of us as children have thrown smooth flat stones across the surface of a
calm stretch of water to see how many times we could make it “skip”, but
nobody ever really explained to us how this all works. The following
interesting article from Physics Web addresses this issue:
< https://physicsweb.org/article/news/7/1/18 >
How do stones skip? 31 January 2003
A French physicist has revealed the science behind a popular pastime called
stone skipping. Lydéric Bocquet from the University of Lyon derived
mathematical expressions for what happens when a stone is made to skim across
a river or lake. He also derived a formula for the maximum number of times a
stone is able to “skip” before it finally sinks (L Bocquet 2003 Am. J. Phys.
71 150)
Intuition tells us that the best stones for skipping are flat and circular,
and that the should be thrown quickly. A stone should also be “flicked” to
give it a spin and should hit the water at a small glancing angle.
Bocquet considered the situation for a flat, thin stone thrown over a
perfectly uniform water surface. He found that the main factors that
determine whether the stone sinks or skims are the mass of the stone, its
angle with respect to the horizon, its angle with respect to the surface of
the water, its spin rate and its horizontal velocity. He calculated that
small angles combined with high spin rates are best.
According to Bocquet, a stone will only bounce if its initial velocity
exceeds a certain value. If the stone is also spinning, this introduces a
stabilizing torque that can maintain the initial angle at which it hits the
water — which helps the stone bounce again.
The maximum number of bounces depends on the rate at which the stone
decelerates — which is in turn directly related to its initial velocity. In
principle, a stone could be made to bounce many times by increasing its
initial velocity. In practice, however, the number of bounces are limited by
the angular destabilization factor — which is independent of the initial
velocity. This means that the all-important initial “flick” is crucial.
Bocquet believes that his results agree well with observations such as the
increase in the number of bounces at the end of a throw — known as
“pitty-pat”.
Ultimately he hopes that his calculations will allow someone to break the
world record of 38 bounces which, if Bocquet is right, is achieved by
throwing the stone at 12 metres per second with an initial spin of 14
revolutions per second.
ELITETRACK Founder
