https://www.elitefts.com/documents/pick_your_poison_db_hammer.htm
comments anyone?
OL's by DB
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Participant
no clue what hes`saying, but if hes dissing the olys… smack him.
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Participant
Have read again AMT training section again twice.
I think it’s a drop jump with the downwards portion accelerated by bands attached to the athlete that are released just as he/she makes ground contact.
Too me the same effect would happen if you just dropped off a higher box. Perhaps I’m missing something?
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Member
[i]Originally posted by Simon[/i]
Have read again AMT training section again twice.I think it’s a drop jump with the downwards portion accelerated by bands attached to the athlete that are released just as he/she makes ground contact.
Too me the same effect would happen if you just dropped off a higher box. Perhaps I’m missing something?
Nah, the bands will bring you down much quicker.
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Member
He said how OL’s are hard to learn. IMO with a proper instructor learning is very simple. Saying they are not specific to vertical jump is ridiculous. You know the Kevin Bacon thing. Well I can connect VJ and OL’s with one move. VJ—> (plyometric)Jump Squats—> OL’s. The similarities between these 3 is ridiculous. Many studies have found that the jump squats are better than depth jumps or regular squats at improving VJ. The same would go for OL’s. I think max jump squat (for height with 30-50% of BW) would directly correlate to clean max and VJ. OL’s work the accelerative part of the jump and jump squats work more of the reactive part
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Member
“It???s like this: a bunch of you pretty-boy Americans now have to put the boy band CD???s in the shoe box with the rest of your trendy items that ended up being not as cool as the media made them out to be. ”
Actually the boy bands were HUGE in Germany.
NSYNC’s first album was pretty tight though,
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Participant
[i]Originally posted by 800prince[/i]
855 raw squat? I also would like to see him add 5 inches to my vert in one session. I would like to see a clip of the AMT jumps.they have videos of them performing it at http://www.innosport.net , go to the media section
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KeymasterI’ve never had a problem teaching OLs to novices. The longest it’s ever taken to develop adequate technique is 2 weeks and the teaching progression actually seems to fall in line perfectly with what I’d be doing (teaching progression or not) with the phase in which it is ussually employed (GPP).
Also, one could achieve the same downward acceleration for jumps without the bands by increasing the height of the box. I’d imagine the box would have to be pretty high though to match the downward acceleration of the band.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
The big pile of crap that follows is a discussion that mirrors this thread a little. It started about 2 weeks ago, when a fellow college coach wrote me for help. He was having trouble with one of the school’s S & C guys who insisted that the track athletes working in the weight room land on the ball of their feet from drops.
…I???d suggest two 3 week cycles every 6 months or so, (NOTE – 2 cycles, using the first to adapt and the second to apply explosive work, out from the landings – see more on this below) with the fit around training / competition year needs. Loads vary with the strength level of the individual. Think volume / recovery from plyo or hurdle hop work as a rough guide. You can complex them with more SSC type elastic work for greater variation, the imagination is the limit.
Like I mentioned, rather than increase the drop height, I???d use a few things:
Change of landing surface, single or double foot land, side drops, backward drops to land, barefoot into sand from safe height, etc.All are ???stick the landing??? applications. If someone is consistently hitting the landing such that they start to show a quick flash of involuntary concentric, that is not a sign to raise the drop height, but rather it signals time to do something out of the landing. Like:
Sprint forward off the landing
Sprint to 90 degrees left or right of landing
VJ off the landing
2, 3 VJ’s off the landing
Bound out of the landing
TJ out of landing
Single leg land, then penult and then plant into a jump
Hurdle Hop(s) out of
And so on???
I am about to waist harness my wife (1.85m HJ) and have her drop to a landing with lateral and backwards leans similar to HJ penult (R L) and at plant (L L)
For jumpers, single leg landings marry well with doing a set working landings on the penult and one on the plant. Then how much do you want to / can you match the event specific postures at those phases, arm actions, etc???
I sense that you want hard answers but there just isn???t the data from years of training in this application to give you a solid response that has stood the test of time.
Keep the landings (and concentrics plus – performed out from landings) as specific to the individuals events, needs/weakness, and look for adaptation as well as transference to testing and event performance. Then adapt / adjust from there???
Hell, I???m the D III guy. You big-shots get in all the studs. I am waiting to hear back from guys like you to see what works and what doesn???t???
Have to admit, I did enjoy when you told me the guy sited Gambetta and Thibaudeau as reasons not to land flat. They were two of the first guys to commend the work I had done.
Dan’s responses are a tough read, but the more you look at them, the more they sink in / make sense. Keep in mind that SSC or yielding is not part of landings. It / they would defeat the isolation of the eccentrics at contact. Its strictly a landing til clear adaptation has taken place, then you can change things up. But ???ball of the foot??? is not prescribed.
Dave K.
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Participant
if you are willing to read my crap, I’ll keep spitting it out.
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Participant
I am about to waist harness my wife (1.85m HJ) and have her drop to a landing with lateral and backwards leans similar to HJ penult (R L) and at plant (L L)
sounds kinky!
in all seriousness and sorry to double shot you with email and now on the board- she drops with backwards and lateral lean and you support and then she penultimates and jumps? i’m trying to get the picture.
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Participant
Drop Landings for HJ with the correct leans, is what we are talking about. So by being tethered at the waist to a fixed object, she can land and freeze on her penult right and her plant left, each being a seperate drop landing exercise.
(Take the photo of her from the Trials I sent you, and magic marker a black line from her waist to the far standard)
Making sense?
Now as she adapts to the landings on penult, I am thinking about holding the other end of the cord rather than tieing it off. That way she can stick the penult and as she starts to involuntary concentric out of, I can drag her to the plant.
Eventually assuming adaptation and mastery, one could conceivablely jump to vertical out of all this but I dont invision this happening in real world.
Sticking the landing on penult, and stick landings on plant for “specific” strength is my goal. If she gets to where she nails the penult then the progression is like stated above.
All are ???stick the landing??? applications. If someone is consistently hitting the landing such that they start to show a quick flash of involuntary concentric, that is not a sign to raise the drop height, but rather it signals time to do something out of the landing. Like:This assumes alot, but is the logical progression to my mind.
(twisted as it might be)Could have some benefit to say kids that dont like to takeoff “too far away” from the bar. By getting tethered landing reps, with standards and a bar to look at while doing this, they might adjust to the depth perception???
Gotta keep thinking out of the box…
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Participant
[i]Originally posted by coachformerlyknownas…[/i]
All are ???stick the landing??? applications. If someone is consistently hitting the landing such that they start to show a quick flash of involuntary concentric, that is not a sign to raise the drop height, but rather it signals time to do something out of the landing. Dave K.All sounds very interesting, but… can you expand on what you mean by ???stick the landing??? and “a quick flash of involuntary concentric”. (Sorry to be stupid.)
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Participant
Yup,
“Sticking the Landing” Picture the gymnast on the otherside of the vaulting horse. Stick the landing, no knee flex, no instability / “shimmy”
“a quick flash of concentric” means just that.
All this landing stuff is eccentric isolation work. If and when one starts to adapt to the workload, whats the next thing that likely will follow a landing? With out even realizing, they will nail the landing and then start to come up (concentric) Concentric being an involuntary response. While flat footed landings, there is some flexion at the knee otherwise the muscles dont get hit and the forces at landing are transmitted skeletally (is that a word?) up the chain to hip, lower back, …People think of eccentric work like in the weight room (lowering the weight, “working the negative”) But that work while having its value in training, doesnt match the duration time of a sprinter’s ground contact or jumper’s plant contact to release. Landings more specifically target / work this area.
When adaptation has occured, those same people default to adding more weight or say dropping from higher heights (the More is Better school of coaching) I suggest that overlaod can be acheived, and more specific to event requirements, by performing an dynamic/explosive action out from a “stuck” landing.
Does that help? If so, then you are smarter than the 2 knuckleheads that run this site. They couldnt even get my post from yesterday on another thread !!!!
This subject has a tie in to GB. The first publisher of my paper on this topic was a sports site run by a university in Scotland, and when I first presented my paper to an audience, Calvin Morriss (former bio-mechanist for GB Field and Track now same for rugby’s national team) was a fellow speaker.
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Participantgreat stuff SuperDave
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Participant
run, go tell it on the mountain… Phoenix lives….
man, i’ve been trying to get a hold of you for like 3 weeks…
holla at your boy!
waffle house for life 🙄
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Participant
coachformerlyknownas…
Thanks for explanation. I know what your talking about now, makes plenty of sense to me! I use same type of landing during general prep. As well as eccentric work I think these are great for the stabilisers of the feet / ankle / pelvis as well as general propreception. I have to say that I don???t go as event specific as you mention (I also coach a good female high jumper) — although I may do now!
Are you aware that the Russian horizontal jumpers were very big on drop jumps with ???sticking the landing??? back in the 80???s? (and maybe they are still big on it?) I know that one of their coaches got the British jumps squad to attempt this off heights of 2m and 3m (6 to 9 feet) and implied that the Russians dropped even further. It never caught on here, probably due to number of injuries it caused to those that tried it. Maybe this ties back to the original subject of this thread?
Anyway???I am very interested in your progressions. I progress ???sticking the landing??? movements to general bounding (hops, steps, skips, etc.) then to what I consider true plyometrics (anything with a very quick and powerful stretch / shorten cycle) which mostly involves dropping off, jumping onto or jumping over objects.
I have resisted the progressions that you mention (drop / hold / explode out) especially for jumpers, because I worry that I am playing with the timing of the stretch / shorten cycle ??? lengthening (in time) something that I want to be as short and fast as possible.
Comments? Observations?
By the way, I know Calvin Morris very well. An excellent S&C guy with a strong academic sports background and very good people and practical skills (an unusual combination?). It was a big loss to T&F when he moved to rugby. Calvin did great work with Steve Backley, especially in the areas of functional stability and ankle-foot strength.
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Participant
Super Dave-
Could you comment on adjustments that are made in terms of the weightroom as you progress through the drops to singles to concentric activities. Percentages down, total reps down? anything?
I have now officially started a three ring binder with just your stuff in it.
Is KT’s office also known as Dagobah?:D
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