Periodization

    Posted In: Strength & Conditioning

        • Participant
          comando-joe on August 25, 2011 at 3:47 am #17780

          Edited question.

          Why do a lot of people periodize the way they do, eg start the year as a bodybuilder in the gym and doing alot of enurance at the track?

          Some of the top weightlifters do not periodize and they get it right in competiton. I dont understand it, we do a lot general things in off season that make us worse at our events (GPP). In this time we put on weight, have more endurance etc, but these qualities are pretty much gone when we are mid-season because they are useless for a power/speed event.

          So why not do more intense weights in the winter, getting stronger without adding any weight, from the get-go? Why not do more sprints instead of loads and loads of tempo runs?

        • Participant
          comando-joe on August 27, 2011 at 12:29 am #110184

          ?

        • Participant
          Mccabe on August 27, 2011 at 12:37 am #110185

          Work capacity.

        • Participant
          comando-joe on August 27, 2011 at 1:05 am #110186

          Work capacity.

          For you its important doing 400’s, but for a jumper, or thrower, 60m sprinter? The only elite guys training ive seen is the few months Edwards put up, and it doesn’t look like there’s any donkey work in there like ive seen from every sub-elite guy.

        • Participant
          burkhalter on August 27, 2011 at 1:06 am #110187

          My assumption is you have to have somewhere to intensify from. Even the Bulgarians intensify and reduce volume they just don’t do as dramatically as others.

        • Participant
          Mccabe on August 27, 2011 at 1:33 am #110188

          I thought for jumping and throwing it was for preparing the body for the impacts/stresses/loading whatever you want to call it. That is only my assumption though.

        • Participant
          star61 on August 27, 2011 at 1:49 am #110190

          Also, while some training results, such as strength and power via lifting in the gym, may prepare you, and even better enable you to perform, the actual training means themselves interfere with other important training means more specific to your event. You have to ‘periodize’ those training means out of your training to accomodate more specific training means into your plan.

        • Participant
          Josh Hurlebaus on August 27, 2011 at 2:20 am #110191

          Also, just because it doesn’t seem specific that doesn’t mean there aren’t desirable training adaptations that happen from said training that when carried over to more specific work will yield better results than just the specific work alone.

        • Participant
          comando-joe on August 27, 2011 at 3:33 am #110192

          Also, while some training results, such as strength and power via lifting in the gym, may prepare you, and even better enable you to perform, the actual training means themselves interfere with other important training means more specific to your event. You have to ‘periodize’ those training means out of your training to accomodate more specific training means into your plan.

          Take my case, my strength will only now go up if i put on some muscle. Im already as big as i would like to be. I would guess quite a few guys are in the same boat as me.

          Why not go right to the more specific things and have much more time to prepare? Would most people break down without the general prep before this?

        • Participant
          Mccabe on August 27, 2011 at 4:20 am #110194

          There is the peaking issue also.

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on August 27, 2011 at 5:19 am #110196

          Joe,

          So let’s say you jump from a full approach, you do fly sprints, you clean singles and doubles @ 90% of your max, do you depth jumps from high heights, you do speed bounding etc etc ALL from day 1 of the training. What do you think will happen to the athlete by indoor competitions and/or outdoor competition time?

        • Participant
          comando-joe on August 27, 2011 at 5:32 am #110197

          Joe,

          So let’s say you jump from a full approach, you do fly sprints, you clean singles and doubles @ 90% of your max, do you depth jumps from high heights, you do speed bounding etc etc ALL from day 1 of the training. What do you think will happen to the athlete by indoor competitions and/or outdoor competition time?

          I guess you wouldnt make it to a competiton, or you would break records if you could hang on? How do you coach yourself Nick? I change my mind/program every other week.

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on August 27, 2011 at 5:43 am #110198

          Joe, i’ve studied this subject for 10 years…all of my education is about sport performance and athletic development. Plus i’ve contacted virtually every major jumps coaches in the world. AND, there’s a lot I still don’t know and i learn something new everyday.

          There is a reason most athletes are not coaches too.

        • Participant
          rcfan2 on August 27, 2011 at 6:53 am #110199

          If I understand Joe’s original question…and could take the liberty to re-phrase it…

          Why do a lot of people periodize the way they do, eg start the year as a bodybuilder in the gym and doing a lot of en(d)urance at the track

          In two parts….

          Why is there emphasis on hypertrophy type weight lifting (aka “bodybuilding”) vs. focusing more on strength and power (speed/strength) development during the pre-season/general prep? With the concern of building unwanted muscle/mass with higher reps/lower weights as well as slower bar movements. Assuming the traditional “Hypertrophy” > “Strength” > “Power” progression.

          and…

          Why is there often so much emphasis on long, slow aerobic running (assuming we’re talking short sprinters/hurdlers and other speed/power athletes) during this training phase as well?

          And that traditional answer to both of these is “building a base” (and Dan Pfaff would reply “a base of what?).

          I don’t know that Joe is questioning the need for progressive overload type training – but seems to be questioning why the training appears to be so non-specific and in some ways counter-indicated (building unwanted body mass, emphasis placed on non-event specific energy systems, bio-motor abilities, etc.).

          Often it can appear that it’s a period of de-training as there is often little emphasis on the event specific qualities (speed, power, nervous system/coordination, etc.).

          I’ve heard interviews (available on the Canadian Athletics Coaching Centre[/url] website) where Loren Seagrave questions the use of hypertrophy type weight training for sprinters (because of where it falls on the force/velocity curve) as well as Vince Anderson questioning the wisdom (I think he uses the term “insane”) that fall/pre-season training has to start with slow, jogging, runs, etc. He claims he introduces speed (posture, mechanics, accelerations) from day one – with the key that intensity is high – but volume and density are low (and progresses from there throughout the season).

          Not sure that helps…

        • Participant
          comando-joe on August 27, 2011 at 7:03 am #110200

          rcfan2 – Thanks, that deffinately helps. But, how do you progress if you are doing speed from day 1?

          I re-read Edwards program. Example here, 85kg p.clean 3×6. 2-3 weeks later he does 4×4 with 110. This makes me think he had a lot to spare and could have been working purely on bar speed instead of general conditioning.

          I did a session last week, 120×8 p.clean. I just thought, what am i doing this for?

        • Participant
          rcfan2 on August 27, 2011 at 7:15 am #110201

          My understanding from listening to Vince Anderson’s interviews (I think there are two parts) – he feels it takes the whole pre-competition (he’s a college coach – so we’re talking from Sept until indoor starts in Dec/Jan) to instill sprint technique, mechanics, etc.

          His point is that there is no reason a sprinter can’t go out and run a 100% the first day of practice. He regulates this by limiting the distance (say 30 meters) and reps (maybe 6-8 reps). And 100% velocity the first day of practice isn’t the same as 100% velocity in May.

          He seems to question the benefit of just going out and “running” and “grinding”.

          So the progressions would be in reps, distance, total volume, etc.

          I always take pause when I hear a coach use the terms “sprinter” and “mileage” in the same sentence 🙂

        • Participant
          star61 on August 27, 2011 at 7:56 am #110202

          [quote author="star61" date="1314389991"]Also, while some training results, such as strength and power via lifting in the gym, may prepare you, and even better enable you to perform, the actual training means themselves interfere with other important training means more specific to your event. You have to ‘periodize’ those training means out of your training to accomodate more specific training means into your plan.

          Take my case, my strength will only now go up if i put on some muscle. Im already as big as i would like to be. I would guess quite a few guys are in the same boat as me.

          Why not go right to the more specific things and have much more time to prepare? Would most people break down without the general prep before this?[/quote]If your body composition (weight, fat%) is now optimal, then you’re right, a bodybuilding (hypertrophy) phase may not be needed. I doubt that you are as strong as you can be, however. You can still make strength gains, along with improvements in power that can hopefully be utilized later. If you haven’t been working out much lately, check your bodyfat. You may be able to add a few pounds of muscle while dropping a few pounds of fat. This hypertrophy phase could be part of a short GPP phase preparing you for more specific work later.

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on August 28, 2011 at 12:06 pm #110231

          Joes issue is not strength or explosive power…it is speed…simple as that. The 3 are not linked nearly as much as some people seem to think. Technique is also a major issue which is separate.

          You are over thinking weights way too much in my opinion and i think it’s largely because you aren’t sure what to really do and how to periodize it. Get a coach, Attoh from your list would be best. Even if it was just a program through email.

        • Member
          Working4Track on September 1, 2011 at 7:56 am #110350

          I know that Olympic sprinters change up their routine every year.. this is because they are so advanced that they perform better on some training, yet can not get consistent gains without mixing it up.. it’s all highlighted in the science and practice of strength training

          for us mortals though, I do not think I should ever change my workout.. consistency is something I fail to do and so do many other people..boredom is another reason why I think people mix it up

          only for pro’s should this take effect in my experience

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