Charles Poliquin and Vern Gambetta integrated some of the work by Lois Klatt into assessing. Vern pointed out in his plyometric article that you can use plyometrics as more than training, but to show the competence of what the athlete could do. Poliquin shared many ways of gaging the weak points of an athlete using Klatt’s work. Note two very different coaches came up with similar conclusions wit
Poliquinetta, and the Usual Suspects
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Participant
I didnt have time to do some proper reasearch, but this explanation doesnt make sense:
The coach watches how the athlete attempts to stick the landing. For instance if the athlete’s:
– knee caves in = weak vmo
– hops forward = week hammies
– bends forward at the waist = weak glutes
– hops inward = weak adductors
– hops outward = weak abductors
– heel rotates in = weak hip rotatorsjust seems stupid, what about foot mechanics?
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Participant
Rune,
You can upload articles with the attachment section on the post tools. Feel free to share your assessment form so we are all on the same page. What do you use? I am sure you have a form correct? Attach what you use.
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Participant
How stupid is it? 50% correlation? 0%?
My point is that foot mechanics are important but how much? I am not using T-nation as a first hand source so I can’t speak for what people do.
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Participant
Hi Carl,
It was in relation to Katt`s assesment. I just googlede katts, its from the member forum T-nation (random post), so i have no ideer if its poliquins work. Hence the remark about not having time right now for any proper reasearch into the subject.
Thank you for mentioning correlations, its not either or.
Knee caving in from weak VMO = 0% i would guise.
Anyway i on agree fact that we need velocity specifik assesments, just not the reasoning behind pointing out specifik weak muscles. What happens if you tell the athlete do to a softer landing?
Wouldnt a double landing cut out balance issues and still giv away lots of info.
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Participant
Again, for the second time. Please upload your assessment form (pdf or word doc) of high velocity evaluation and joint/muscle dysfunction so we can see what you do. Perhaps you can help the profession with what you do?
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Participant
Why not share what you think doesn’t work about the FMS. You don’t have to have answers as I don’t have them myself but it’s ok to question things. You have some good points and I think European perspective would be nice.
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Participant
Carl,
Could you please expand upon this part of the post:“Even coach Francis said that speed work for a NFL athlete is not as maximal and lifts are often safer options.”
I don’t quite understand the statement or the desired outcome: Speed work doesn’t provide enough overload for an elite level NFL athlete? Lifting will provide the overload? Lifting is less likely to lead to injury than speed work?
Movement (linear or changing directions) at high speeds has to be part of teh preparation of an NFL athlete, correct? That is what their sport demands.
Thank You
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Participant
What earth shattering information will be picked up from these tests? Let’s say I skip the test and just program Olympic variations, squats, deadlifts, linear and lateral single leg exercises, RDL’s, back extensions, leg curls, various linear and lateral jumps, etc…
Won’t i be covering all the bases?
Perhaps a Klatt before and after might have the greatest value to gauge the effectiveness of a program.
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Participant
Carl,
Could you please expand upon this part of the post:“Even coach Francis said that speed work for a NFL athlete is not as maximal and lifts are often safer options.”
I don’t quite understand the statement or the desired outcome: Speed work doesn’t provide enough overload for an elite level NFL athlete? Lifting will provide the overload? Lifting is less likely to lead to injury than speed work?
Movement (linear or changing directions) at high speeds has to be part of teh preparation of an NFL athlete, correct? That is what their sport demands.
Thank You
We don’t know the level of transfer weights will have but the theory Charlie has that weights can be measured and the risks are low by meeting the previous years numbers. Sort of when Reggie Bush started to do treadmill ninja rolls and Charlie reminded us remember to do what got you there.
Another point is when do you actually get the system strength and power better when off-seasons look like in-season work.
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Participant
Carl,
Your reply makes good sense. At one point Bush had a trainer that had him doing some pretty ridiculous things. I do feel proper progressed movement has to be part of training in the offseason for team sport athletes. Different sports and different athletes will create unique training situations. Basketball players often find ways to play varying levels of organized ballyear round so they may need less movement training. For a football player OTAs will give some limited exposure to movement but I wouldn’t want to send them to training camp having only lifted during the offseason. I may be taking the Kobe Bryant / charlie Francis statements to an extreme. Thoughts.[quote author="Jason Roe" date="1277158425"]Carl,
Could you please expand upon this part of the post:“Even coach Francis said that speed work for a NFL athlete is not as maximal and lifts are often safer options.”
I don’t quite understand the statement or the desired outcome: Speed work doesn’t provide enough overload for an elite level NFL athlete? Lifting will provide the overload? Lifting is less likely to lead to injury than speed work?
Movement (linear or changing directions) at high speeds has to be part of teh preparation of an NFL athlete, correct? That is what their sport demands.
Thank You
We don’t know the level of transfer weights will have but the theory Charlie has that weights can be measured and the risks are low by meeting the previous years numbers. Sort of when Reggie Bush started to do treadmill ninja rolls and Charlie reminded us remember to do what got you there.
Another point is when do you actually get the system strength and power better when off-seasons look like in-season work.[/quote]
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Participant
This gets in the the need for patience as the athlete needs to be ready for the next week and so on. Mark Asonovich may not get love, but I do think his philophy hits the Vermiel and Francis thought process of being ready for the next phase or next week, not having forth quarter shape in March. What type of shape is necessary for OTAs vis preseason? I am not saying do nothing movement wise (people would label me sprint happy) but athletes need to lift to maintain power in their careers. You need to be ready for OTAs right before OTAs, not right after the superbowl. Those numbers I have no clue as I don’t coach in the NFL. Some combine prep and speed training is not development, so I have nothing to offer just opinions by consultants and coaches that make sense.
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Participant
What earth shattering information will be picked up from these tests? Let’s say I skip the test and just program Olympic variations, squats, deadlifts, linear and lateral single leg exercises, RDL’s, back extensions, leg curls, various linear and lateral jumps, etc…
Won’t i be covering all the bases?
Perhaps a Klatt before and after might have the greatest value to gauge the effectiveness of a program.
Most likely. I think the information is not earth shattering but small can be career shattering.
I think a test before and after shows if the test is effective. Remember the FMS is not a sign of performance but any full battery of tests that act as a spectrum such as the actual training will reveal the most information.
One of the biggest mystery’s if good technique done with contributions of muscle groups out of the natural ratios because of good skills…..then what?
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Participant
Excellent clarification, and I totally agree with that. It has to be a process that leaves the ready for specific demands at the right time. I wanted more info because the original statement about Francis could be mistakenly understood as meaning that NFL/NBA athletes needed lifting almost exclusively.
This gets in the the need for patience as the athlete needs to be ready for the next week and so on. Mark Asonovich may not get love, but I do think his philophy hits the Vermiel and Francis thought process of being ready for the next phase or next week, not having forth quarter shape in March. What type of shape is necessary for OTAs vis preseason? I am not saying do nothing movement wise (people would label me sprint happy) but athletes need to lift to maintain power in their careers. You need to be ready for OTAs right before OTAs, not right after the superbowl. Those numbers I have no clue as I don’t coach in the NFL. Some combine prep and speed training is not development, so I have nothing to offer just opinions by consultants and coaches that make sense.
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Participant
[quote author="mr glove" date="1277163985"]What earth shattering information will be picked up from these tests? Let’s say I skip the test and just program Olympic variations, squats, deadlifts, linear and lateral single leg exercises, RDL’s, back extensions, leg curls, various linear and lateral jumps, etc…
Won’t i be covering all the bases?
Perhaps a Klatt before and after might have the greatest value to gauge the effectiveness of a program.
Most likely. I think the information is not earth shattering but small can be career shattering.
I think a test before and after shows if the test is effective. Remember the FMS is not a sign of performance but any full battery of tests that act as a spectrum such as the actual training will reveal the most information.
One of the biggest mystery’s if good technique done with contributions of muscle groups out of the natural ratios because of good skills…..then what?[/quote]
Not sure I understand the last part of your post.
I agree that the actual training will reveal the most.
I think most tests are designed to hook an athlete by pointing out “weaknesses” and subsequently establish a need for the services of the tester. It’s like I’m going to break you down, show you where you’re failing, and then fix you with a magical exercise called The Split Squat which, by the way, I would have you use regardless if we tested or not.
Has anyone ever heard “Based on the results of my scientific testing procedure, you don’t need to do RDL’s?” or “Based on test results, you don’t need to do a Reverse Lunge?”
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Participant
What I mean is that sometimes visual observation is not indicative of what is really going on.
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