[Matt Norquist]

Matt Norquist on April 24, 2009 at 8:17 am #15657

Something I’ve been thinking about for a long time (since I was a HS track guy)… Why do athletes do the events they do??

Some examples:

Bryan Clay – 10.50, 21.4, 7.50, 13.90 HS marks – went to Decathlon rather than playing out his career as a 100, LJ, or Hurdles guy – with his build, seems like a big risk. Obviosly made the right call.

Thing is, most people with his marks, or even a step down, go after the 100 or LJ, or Hurdles…

Example 2, Andre West, a HS basketball teammate. 6’3″, 205 lbs. Broke a backboard dunking in HS. 6’4″ HJ, 22’5″ LJ, 11.2 100m. 345 BP. Never did anything except 100, and the 2 jumps. Never amounted to anything athletically.

The question is —- How many potential superstars spend their early (and subsequently college) years doing the wrong event? When I’ve coached age group kids, my strategy has always been to move people in the following directions:

1 – from simpler to more complex events – IE – Best Long Jumper(unless he’s a genetic freak) move to TJ – reduces competition, and increases odds for success, college scholarship, etc.

2 – From shorter to longer – IE – 100-400 – or more often 400 to 1600m+

3 – From single event to Multi-event – Take guys who are fast and “jumpy” and get them learning multi events as soon as possible.

My contention is that your freshman who comes in running a 51.2 400m, Long Jumping 21′, or running the 100m in 11.4 etc – will probably never be a 45.x, 26’+ or 10.2 guy. Possible but unlikely. However, that 51.x 400m guy might very realistically be able to crank out 4:15 something in the mile and get a college scholarship; the 21′ long jumper might have a 50′ TJ in him by graduation (with a 23′ long jump) and the 11.4 100m guy could definitely get in position to be a low 14. hurdler by graduation.

How many coaches look to actively steer athletes away from the popular events and toward events where they have a better chance at victory and college scholarships.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on April 24, 2009 at 10:15 am #82177

I don’t subscribe to this theory. I think you have to take physical maturation into consideration. I prefer that kids do multi-events. I would prefer kids be taught stuff like hurdles and obstacle negotiation at young ages, 7-12 years of age, in physical education. In fact I want kids to be multi-sport capable for as long as possible. I have made the following observations in my life, physical maturation and when it is completed is the largest governor in development of speed. If you mature early and aren’t running 10.8s for 100m then you are looking at a 10 year span to possibly get to 10.5s range if you are a 10.9s 100m runner. However, a kid running 11.4s for 100m who hasn’t physically developed by any age has potential for sub 10.5s range.

Also, I still wouldn’t take a 51s guy and make him a 1600m runner, he’s a 400/800 runner and not a miler at worst. A 51s 400m automatically is a potential 1:52 guy at 800m. There is also a little caveat I have seen with 51s 400m runners since there are so many of them. They are being trained wrong to begin with limiting 400m potential. Personally, I am a better miler and 100m runner than I am a 400m runner or 800m runner with training that resembles most HS track and field training. If you profiled the HS coaches who use Clyde Harts 400m training or something similar you would find almost all don’t alter his prescription for 46-47s 400m runners when he gets them for their HS athletes who come in out of Jr. High running 53-56s for 400m. So why is these same runners max out at 49-51s for 400m regardless of maturation, but others can get their kids under 49s by not adhering to large training volumes. I try to see how my athletes respond to speed and lifting in training. I like to see how they learn by experimentation with hurdles, high jump, and discus. I use those as my movement screens to understand the abilities my athletes have. When I couple those technically demanding events with speed/power events like the 100m, Long Jump, and Shot Put I have an idea of what events fit them and have introduced them to other events. Most of my athletes don’t like the 600m or 1K time trials i put them through. When I see time and space awareness coupled with high speed and power numbers and decent endurance. I know I have a multi-eventer. When I see good speed and power with good endurance, I have a mid which can do sprints or jumps, When I see time and space awareness along with good endurance I have a long hurdler, maybe a decent discus thrower and high jumper. When I see an athlete is only good at one of these areas, I know have work to do.

I think you have to balance steering them and them having fun. If they aren’t having fun then its likely they won’t perform and when they don’t perform well they will likely quit.

[B Hobbs]

B Hobbs on April 24, 2009 at 10:39 am #82180

All I did in HS was HH 14.10 HJ 6’10” LJ 22’10” and turned into a 5600+ hep and 7400+ dec.

I agree that physical maturation or athletic age is a BIG factor in determining an athletes future. I look at an athletes grasp of the biomotor abilities which usually comes from like Daniel said being a multi-sport athlete.

I don’t want to get to many projects: which to me isn’t teaching a new event, but teaching biomotor abilities and fundamentals movements vital to that event.

I think the bigger question would be: “How amazing would this sport truly be in this country without loosing athletes to the likes of football and basketball?”

[Matt Norquist]

Matt Norquist on April 24, 2009 at 11:20 am #82183

All I did in HS was HH 14.10 HJ 6’10” LJ 22’10” and turned into a 5600+ hep and 7400+ dec.

I agree that physical maturation or athletic age is a BIG factor in determining an athletes future. I look at an athletes grasp of the biomotor abilities which usually comes from like Daniel said being a multi-sport athlete.

I don’t want to get to many projects: which to me isn’t teaching a new event, but teaching biomotor abilities and fundamentals movements vital to that event.

I think the bigger question would be: “How amazing would this sport truly be in this country without loosing athletes to the likes of football and basketball?”

Great Point, TrkNFld. Right, how good could it be?? “All you did was 14.1, 6’10” and 22’10” 🙂 ! I would have guessed you’d go bigger than 7500, to be honest.

Totally agree re: Physical maturation. Am not saying that should not be considered. Hence my point that, “unless they’re a genetic freak”. You can also tell the difference between if you have a 14 year old who is 6’1″ 135 lb, with limited muscular development who is already running 11.4 and jumping 21′ – it is a very different story from a 5’10”, well developed kid who’s been lifting already. That’s where judgement comes in.

My point is that a normally developing 11.4 freshman will probably never be a 10.5 HS 100m guy, but could very well get down to 10.8-10.9 and be a sub 14.0 hurdler – earning college $, and scorin better at district and state meets.

The times I posted were somewhat arbitrary – being used t emphasize that it seems like we often steer people towards events in which they may do well in dual meets, when they may have the physical potential to be state champions and scholarshiped athletes in completely different events (most often, either more complex events, longer distances, or multis).

As to having fun, tell me who has more fun: a 10.9 100 guy who goes undefeated through league champs, but doesn’t make it out of prelims at state, or a 13.7 guy who wins state, gets a scholarship and gets through college without student loans?

[B Hobbs]

B Hobbs on April 24, 2009 at 11:31 am #82186

I agree with you completely. You ask any athlete and they will say winning is more fun. Those who want to have fun are those who have never tasted victory. Those who say they want to have fun are those that are “playing” track and field instead of competing in it.

Ohh and FYI you don’t get a lot of points for running a 3:00 1000m and 5:10 1500m PRs

[Matt Norquist]

Matt Norquist on April 24, 2009 at 11:35 am #82191

I agree with you completely. You ask any athlete and they will say winning is more fun. Those who want to have fun are those who have never tasted victory. Those who say they want to have fun are those that are “playing” track and field instead of competing in it.

Ohh and FYI you don’t get a lot of points for running a 3:00 1000m and 5:10 1500m PRs

🙂 500 points doesn’t do you many favors. Trade Bryan’s 5:00+ times for 4:30’s and he’d have had WR in the bag a couple times!

[B Hobbs]

B Hobbs on April 24, 2009 at 11:39 am #82193

tell me about it. There was nothing worse than knowing every time out that if I wasn’t ahead by over 200 points I wasn’t going to win conference or be an all-american

[aivala]

aivala on April 24, 2009 at 1:25 pm #82210

What if you have a guy like this?

18 y.o., 6-1 tall, can barely squat 1.5x bw, very poor upper body strength yet good span, 7.30 LJ, 2m HJ, 10.90fat and 50.x off no speed endurance, decent hurdles and discus tech, would you make him a multi?

[B Hobbs]

B Hobbs on April 24, 2009 at 1:38 pm #82211

I would have recruited him with that intent. I graduated highschool at 6’3′ 165 lbs with obviously no weightroom experience. I would continue to redshirt him and bit the bullet and give him a year to adjust. You would have a stud on you hands in 2 years.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on April 24, 2009 at 1:47 pm #82213

” date=”1240559750″]What if you have a guy like this?

18 y.o., 6-1 tall, can barely squat 1.5x bw, very poor upper body strength yet good span, 7.30 LJ, 2m HJ, 10.90fat and 50.x off no speed endurance, decent hurdles and discus tech, would you make him a multi?

I’d make you a multi if you could vault decently(3.5m). Without a decent vault, there is no way you could make up deficiencies in shot or the relatively low hurdles score (600 points). You’d be a decent/good first day decathlete just like every other decathlete. However, you’d still likely lose points hand over fist to the strong, powerful, technical monsters.

I’ll take my way over TrkNFld’s any day of the week. I can make anyone competitive at the High School level if they are willing to do the work required for the events they want to do.

If Clay runs a 4:30 he’s going to have to give up points in other events, a whole lot more than the 300 or so points he does now. It’s a bad trade off. That’s like spending more time to make someone throw the javelin farther as a multi.

[aivala]

aivala on April 24, 2009 at 2:07 pm #82218

I’d make you a multi if you could vault decently(3.5m). Without a decent vault, there is no way you could make up deficiencies in shot or the relatively low hurdles score (600 points). You’d be a decent/good first day decathlete just like every other decathlete. However, you’d still likely lose points hand over fist to the strong, powerful, technical monsters.

Let’s say in less than 4 months I will be able to vault over 4m and hurdle in <15.5. Then?

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on April 24, 2009 at 2:13 pm #82220

Then yes because you are a 7000 point decathlete who can’t shot put very well most likely. As long as you can run sub 17s hurdles and throw the discus around 40m. I would use you as decathlete. We’d see in the first 2 years how you progress, but I would not try to put weight on you. I’d let the training mold you into stronger and more powerful athlete. No redshirt required.

[B Hobbs]

B Hobbs on April 24, 2009 at 3:02 pm #82228

Then yes because you are a 7000 point decathlete who can’t shot put very well most likely. As long as you can run sub 17s hurdles and throw the discus around 40m. I would use you as decathlete. We’d see in the first 2 years how you progress, but I would not try to put weight on you. I’d let the training mold you into stronger and more powerful athlete. No redshirt required.

I assume we are talking about a Frosh in College not High School with those marks.

Aren’t you basically talking about what I am “see in the first 2 years how you progress.” Is that not MY advice. I however am giving the option of not wasting a year of eligibility it the process.

Most multies do redshirt their first year of college for the reason Daniel mentions with having difficulty vaulting and conditioning the upper body.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on April 24, 2009 at 3:14 pm #82231

The part about you TrkNFld is about subjects earlier in the thread about development.

I don’t see a reason to redshirt him for being weak in likely one event area and only decent in 3 others. I assume with his frame and 400m time a 4:40 1500m wouldn’t be hard to obtain and I would like to keep that 4:40 1500 intact as much as possible by not adding weight because of upper body deficiencies.

There is no reason to redshirt him in my opinion. He’d likely be point scorer in Decathlon and LJ in most DI conferences. He’s not going to get better without competition and multis need to travel distances to make meets and stay overnight longer periods of time. I’d save the redshirt for injury reasons.

Francisco:

Then I would definitely make you a multi if you can hurdle in sub 16 and vault 4m with those speeds and distances you listed earlier. Your decathlon score potential is higher than any one of your specialties.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on April 24, 2009 at 3:24 pm #82235

Maturation not withstanding, I actually am of the same belief as Matt. This is why I think any smart high school coach will invest time in the throws….because it’s relatively easy to score a ton of points even if you don’t have supreme talent. I straddle the fence between saying someone is ‘not talented enough for such and such event so they should move up / switch events’ and saying ‘ this person is best suited to another event.’ They seem to be just semantics differences but really they’re not.

As for the original question…I personally try to put someone in the event that they will have the most success at regardless of what their initial personal preference is. As was stated, most will fall in love with their new event as soon as they start having more success. I actually used to use a run test battery to come up with an individualized prediction regression to where I could determine where a person was best suited for success. It worked out perfectly and the only glitch was that in group settings you may have to move people outside of their truly best event because of depth (or lack of) in certain areas on the team and / or conference level.

ELITETRACK Founder

[B Hobbs]

B Hobbs on April 24, 2009 at 3:33 pm #82239

I agree with you on the point of not gaining weight but it will be inevitable with a solid weight training program focused toward multi event athletes. He and you would have to agree that he would be much more valuable year 5 than he would year 1.

Vault was my toughest event to learn and never did master it. My PR was 15’1. My first year it was 13 feet.

WITH ZERO EXPERIENCE in HH and PV I would redshirt for sure. Those are not 2 events you want to learn as you go or on the fly. Many mental problems can arise. Also without these events you will not have a chance.

You poll most coaches on here and they will tell you the key events in the Dec are the PV, HH, and 400. You need a year to level the playing field.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on April 24, 2009 at 3:52 pm #82251

I agree with you on the point of not gaining weight but it will be inevitable with a solid weight training program focused toward multi event athletes. He and you would have to agree that he would be much more valuable year 5 than he would year 1.

Vault was my toughest event to learn and never did master it. My PR was 15’1. My first year it was 13 feet.

WITH ZERO EXPERIENCE in HH and PV I would redshirt for sure. Those are not 2 events you want to learn as you go or on the fly. Many mental problems can arise. Also without these events you will not have a chance.

You poll most coaches on here and they will tell you the key events in the Dec are the PV, HH, and 400. You need a year to level the playing field.

I think there are 4 key events, PV, HJ, HH, and Discus. If someone is considering being a multi they have to be able to sprint and jump to begin with. I can live with low throw scores to start with. Just the volume and intensity change in his training would likely cause a gain in mass. Like I said save the redshirt for the inevitable injury stretch that is bound to hit your multi’s. I would agree with a redshirt for indoor if you can’t hurdle or vault, but by the end of indoor and 2 unattached meets I would like to see a sub 17s 110H and 3.5m vault and decide then before big relay meets to redshirt outdoors. In fact I would making sure my multis went unattached in meets every season until they did their first multi. You are more likely to gain a redshirt year for medical reasons if you haven’t used it.

3 of those 4 events I listed are Day 2 events. Day 1 decides who still is in the competition, but day 2 decides who wins it.

[aivala]

aivala on April 24, 2009 at 3:57 pm #82252

I am not from USA so issues with NCAA rules are not a problem! I will be actually living in southern Germany. I was lucky enough to get introduced to almost all events during HS, my discus tech is ok but I lack the necessary strength to deal with heavier implements. The same is for the javelin and the shot. It’s a shame that I had to PV into a sand pit though, so for love of my knees I never vaulted. I now have the chance to work with a 5.30 pole vaulter and a close friend of him (great coach btw) so I won’t waste the chance. And for the hurdles a coach in my former school was south american champion in the hepta so she has some clue about it.
I have never been able to transfer the force of my legs to the javelin anyway so I believe I could be throwing 40 / 45m if I mastered the technique. Nowadays just 35 with arm only throwing.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on April 24, 2009 at 4:04 pm #82253

Once you listed the 7.3 LJ I knew you were listing your numbers, but remember great athletes don’t always make great coaches. At least in the US that statement is true. Not that I am a great coach, I am decent, because I’ve never had a kid regress in my training from year to year. My multis regress from their HS specialty in the summer, but we mainly focus on event introduction and having fun and only train about 3 or 4 times a week. I am not one to stand in the way of kid having fun in the summer on their vacation from school.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on April 24, 2009 at 4:08 pm #82254

…but remember great athletes don’t always make great coaches

This is overwhelmingly supported by motor learning research. In fact the opposite may more likely be true.

ELITETRACK Founder

[aivala]

aivala on April 24, 2009 at 4:08 pm #82255

Once you listed the 7.3 LJ I knew you were listing your numbers, but remember great athletes don’t always make great coaches. At least in the US that statement is true. Not that I am a great coach, I am decent, because I’ve never had a kid regress in my training from year to year. My multis regress from their HS specialty in the summer, but we mainly focus on event introduction and having fun and only train about 3 or 4 times a week. I am not one to stand in the way of kid having fun in the summer on their vacation from school.

I listed what I know I am phisically capable of right now, the 400 could even be faster than that. I am a strange case since I am very young yet know what kind of training works well for me, yet was hampered by lots of injuries (track and non track related). Autodiscipline isn’t a problem if I know I have some talent, if I knew I wasn’t going anywhere I would give up right now.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on April 24, 2009 at 4:33 pm #82259

[quote author="Daniel Andrews (dbandre)" date="1240569278"]…but remember great athletes don’t always make great coaches

This is overwhelmingly supported by motor learning research. In fact the opposite may more likely be true.[/quote]

I am pretty sure your statement is meant to agree or concur with mine, but it seems painfully obvious through observation and even through personal experience. I have had decent success sprinting and distance running, my jumping prowess has always been my strongest suit, but when it comes to coaching the events I have had most success at have been the middle distances and high jump, events I think I should have been good at, but I have always been mediocre with them. I used to be a crappy sprint coach and crappier horizontal jumps coach (compared till now) until I became interested in motor learning and development. Since that time, I have become better at both horizontals and sprints (above average or decent compared to the rest of my peers at the same level). Some day I will apply what I learned with distance/xc runners at high school or college, coaching jr. high kids and having it translate in 2 years time is hard to judge. Once I figured out every athlete is not me, and their experiences haven’t been mine, my outlook changed on how to coach them.

I think I am a pretty good athlete, was guided into distance running too early which I was and probably (lose about 35 pounds) could still be good at, but I have always been able to run fast and jump high and far. Which is why I hate when coaches think they should move kids back. I don’t think moving kids back is a problem it is most common thing I hear next to fixing a kids form to make him better from mouths of coaches at all levels. So I think coaches are more apt to move an athlete back than we are giving them credit for.

[Matt Norquist]

Matt Norquist on April 24, 2009 at 11:50 pm #82266

Great discussion here… In terms of key events for decathlon potential – I’d look at the following:

100m
HH
LJ
PV

If I had to give up one of the above, it would be the PV. It is easy to get someone to decent (4.30) multis levels of vaulting.

Then I’d look for natural aptitude in shot put and javelin. Shot put, bc it shows aggression and explosiveness, Jav, bc as Daniel says, it is hard to teach – if you don’t do it fairly well naturally, you will not ever throw very far. I’d also see how they do in 400m.

[B Hobbs]

B Hobbs on April 25, 2009 at 1:39 am #82268

400
110HH
PV
Discus

The HH and 100m hurdles are at the same distance (almost). You can always assume that a good fast High Hurdler can also run a relatively fast 100m.

So throw out the 100m.

Pole Vault is a discipline that takes years to full develop. Most decs never fully master it. A good vaulter requires speed, upper body strength, and heightened body awareness to clear anything big.

Tools he will need to training in the throws.

400m- Test of ATP CP.

If I had to go another it would be disc.

Shot put is more of as one of former athletes says “strapping on a pair” (of things between your legs) and throwing. Which I except because he is pretty strong. Discus factors seem to be pretty different as it relys on much more balance, rotational forces, and keeping a wide radius which is not required in many other track and field diciplines

[Garrett121]

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