[Carl Valle]

Carl Valle on August 15, 2009 at 12:56 pm #16074

I’m lucky enough to be able to work with a large group of pro and amateur fighters from Ground Control MMA Baltimore. O lifts help the fighters train to explode into opponents, lift them up, and take them down. Because MMA is a weight-class sport, the weight used during O lifts should be roughly the same as the weight class the fighter competes in. If a fighter can clean 1.5 times his body weight

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[Derrick Brito]

Derrick Brito on August 15, 2009 at 3:48 pm #87583

Interesting perspective.

[star61]

star61 on August 16, 2009 at 2:43 am #87598

I agree with the majority of your post; I’ve always thought it best to hit as many possible points on the force/time curve as possible. But there is some truth to the specific load being used when improving power endurance. Those training for combine-like tests for bench press know that you need a lot of reps around the weight you’ll be tested at. If testing at 225, you should have a majority of you reps in the 205 to 245 range.

However, as you pointed out, even when training for an endurance test it would be best to spend the least amount of time required to build that endurance, and the remainder of that time building limit strength. A 405 bencher will outperform a 315 bencher in the 225MR test almost everytime, regardless of power endurance issues.

And as your quote at the end mentioned, none of this is new. Training becomes more specific and focused as the plan progresses.

[__me]

__me on August 16, 2009 at 9:12 pm #87661

In the comment section to the article where the quote comes from, Nick Tuminello says

I utilize a power endurance phase as the last phase of training before competition or regular season.

So, for an MMA fighter, we would go into a Power Endurance Phase shortly (2-5 weeks) before a fight. My fighters take the week before the fight off of all strength and conditioning training . They only focus on technical and tactical work in the final week.

[Carl Valle]

Carl Valle on August 17, 2009 at 12:30 am #87662

Thanks for the post but his power endurance is more power outage endurance so 2-5 weeks is just loosing what he MAY have developed. Perhaps he could post 205 athlete cleaning 275?

[Derrick Brito]

Derrick Brito on August 17, 2009 at 6:31 pm #87726

Thanks for the post but his power endurance is more power outage endurance so 2-5 weeks is just loosing what he MAY have developed. Perhaps he could post 205 athlete cleaning 275?

This seems dubious to me. Which fighters have you trained and how many 3×5 and 5×5 decisions have they won?

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on August 18, 2009 at 3:22 pm #87819

I agree with the majority of your post; I’ve always thought it best to hit as many possible points on the force/time curve as possible. But there is some truth to the specific load being used when improving power endurance. Those training for combine-like tests for bench press know that you need a lot of reps around the weight you’ll be tested at. If testing at 225, you should have a majority of you reps in the 205 to 245 range.

However, as you pointed out, even when training for an endurance test it would be best to spend the least amount of time required to build that endurance, and the remainder of that time building limit strength. A 405 bencher will outperform a 315 bencher in the 225MR test almost everytime, regardless of power endurance issues.

And as your quote at the end mentioned, none of this is new. Training becomes more specific and focused as the plan progresses.

Star:

I don’t know why Carl quoted me at the end. I am sure their others that have pointed this out. The problem as I see it, is we get stuck in a numbers game and I know Vern blogged about the numbers game topic a while back, Endurance is a by product of the cumulative effect of training we gain more endurance the longer we train. Maximum Strength and Power while certainly affected by cumulative training have a bit of variance to them while endurance either stays baseline or increases. I think Carl hit the nail on the head when he discussed someone starting their PE sessions 5 weeks out. Why? PE should be thought of an integral part of each training cycle or session. If you are training your athletes properly their test numbers should improve throughout the season as well as their performances. If you are an MMA or Boxing athlete, your max power is going to take a hit by that 5th week of the sole concentration on PE which in most cases won’t be specific enough to provide the endurance benefits they desired in the first place. If you don’t have the PE to keep punches and kicks at 75% of max power into the 2rd round of an MMA fight 5 weeks out from competition why waste 5 weeks of training on the possibility of the fight going into the 2nd or 3rd rounds?

[Derrick Brito]

Derrick Brito on August 18, 2009 at 4:28 pm #87822

[quote author="star61" date="1250370848"]I agree with the majority of your post; I’ve always thought it best to hit as many possible points on the force/time curve as possible. But there is some truth to the specific load being used when improving power endurance. Those training for combine-like tests for bench press know that you need a lot of reps around the weight you’ll be tested at. If testing at 225, you should have a majority of you reps in the 205 to 245 range.

However, as you pointed out, even when training for an endurance test it would be best to spend the least amount of time required to build that endurance, and the remainder of that time building limit strength. A 405 bencher will outperform a 315 bencher in the 225MR test almost everytime, regardless of power endurance issues.

And as your quote at the end mentioned, none of this is new. Training becomes more specific and focused as the plan progresses.

Star:

I don’t know why Carl quoted me at the end. I am sure their others that have pointed this out. The problem as I see it, is we get stuck in a numbers game and I know Vern blogged about the numbers game topic a while back, Endurance is a by product of the cumulative effect of training we gain more endurance the longer we train. Maximum Strength and Power while certainly affected by cumulative training have a bit of variance to them while endurance either stays baseline or increases. I think Carl hit the nail on the head when he discussed someone starting their PE sessions 5 weeks out. Why? PE should be thought of an integral part of each training cycle or session. If you are training your athletes properly their test numbers should improve throughout the season as well as their performances. If you are an MMA or Boxing athlete, your max power is going to take a hit by that 5th week of the sole concentration on PE which in most cases won’t be specific enough to provide the endurance benefits they desired in the first place. If you don’t have the PE to keep punches and kicks at 75% of max power into the 2rd round of an MMA fight 5 weeks out from competition why waste 5 weeks of training on the possibility of the fight going into the 2nd or 3rd rounds?[/quote]

While that might be true for power sports, it seems ridiculous to apply the same philosophy to fighting. MMA less about power endurance and more about muscular endurance and aerobic endurance. A fighter probably attempts 50-100 techniques per round, which can accumulate to 250-500 in a five round fight. I probably wouldn’t be doing cleans with bodyweight five weeks out from a fight, but I sure as hell wouldn’t be working above 85%. Carl said that you can develop fight conditioning in six weeks and you should be working on developing power when you aren’t less than six weeks out. So why would he say try to develop power during the last 2-5 weeks? Aerobic endurance and power aren’t complementary qualities. At best strength and power should be on maintenance.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on August 19, 2009 at 2:54 pm #87910

Derrick:

Aerobic Endurance and Power Maintenance (read endurance and maximal production) are complementary and on fight night those qualities need to be expressed optimally. As I stated Maximal Strength and Power are highly variable when not worked. The problem typically is in the design of the program as Carl pointed out. Most of the work done in the Power Endurance phase as described by most is not specific enough for preparing someone for competition (not to mention most applications of PE are wrong IMHO). When working with weights, the power endurance gained from weight sessions focusing on long periods (>20s) of wattage don’t help maintain maximal power. While on the other hand working with weights to maintain or increase max strength and power does keep those power producing capabilities while leaving the specific work being done as conditioning work. Contrary to what you wouldn’t do and I haven’t trained a fighter but I would want a fighter to work specifically @85%+ intensity of what the average fight intensity is going to be 2-3 days a week up until the final two weeks before a fight in the last 5 to 8 weeks, recover and tune the last two weeks, fight, take a week off with minimal conditioning, then start another 8-12 week cycle which starts out with shorter higher intensity bouts which get longer the longer we are in the cycle and high intensity weightlifting for the first 6-7 weeks with training days last 5-8 hours in duration gradually getting that down 2-3 hours 4-5 weeks out from the competition.

A single workout session should not be thought of as a power endurance session, all workout sessions directly effect power endurance. A phase or cycle of training should not be thought of as a power endurance phase or cycle as every phase of training affects power endurance. Power Endurance should be thought of as a tool to guide in training and conditioning an athlete, ie what are physical demands of the sport to compete not only competently, but also competitively every time we wish compete, how long between competitions, how long is the competitive season, how long a single competition last, the intermittent rest to competition ratio of the sport.

[Derrick Brito]

Derrick Brito on August 20, 2009 at 6:42 am #87962

Derrick:

Aerobic Endurance and Power Maintenance (read endurance and maximal production) are complementary and on fight night those qualities need to be expressed optimally. As I stated Maximal Strength and Power are highly variable when not worked. The problem typically is in the design of the program as Carl pointed out. Most of the work done in the Power Endurance phase as described by most is not specific enough for preparing someone for competition (not to mention most applications of PE are wrong IMHO). When working with weights, the power endurance gained from weight sessions focusing on long periods (>20s) of wattage don’t help maintain maximal power. While on the other hand working with weights to maintain or increase max strength and power does keep those power producing capabilities while leaving the specific work being done as conditioning work. Contrary to what you wouldn’t do and I haven’t trained a fighter but I would want a fighter to work specifically @85%+ intensity of what the average fight intensity is going to be 2-3 days a week up until the final two weeks before a fight in the last 5 to 8 weeks, recover and tune the last two weeks, fight, take a week off with minimal conditioning, then start another 8-12 week cycle which starts out with shorter higher intensity bouts which get longer the longer we are in the cycle and high intensity weightlifting for the first 6-7 weeks with training days last 5-8 hours in duration gradually getting that down 2-3 hours 4-5 weeks out from the competition.

A single workout session should not be thought of as a power endurance session, all workout sessions directly effect power endurance. A phase or cycle of training should not be thought of as a power endurance phase or cycle as every phase of training affects power endurance. Power Endurance should be thought of as a tool to guide in training and conditioning an athlete, ie what are physical demands of the sport to compete not only competently, but also competitively every time we wish compete, how long between competitions, how long is the competitive season, how long a single competition last, the intermittent rest to competition ratio of the sport.

I think we are mostly in agreement. I would maintain strength and power with loads around 85% up to a week out. I just take issue with the idea of developing power towards a fight (and thus the assertion that fighting is a power sport, it’s not). I also take issue with the implication made in Carl’s original post that endurance only needs to be developed close to a fight. I have trained with a number of professional fighters, inculding former and current world champions. I can tell you that the differences between the strength in them and track athletes is quite remarkable, but it just has to do with fighting being an endurance sport.