thought i’d start the debate….
Quarter/partial squats
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as a jumper, for last couple of years i’ve used quarter squats as a follow on from deep squats in the winter. so from October through till March/April i’ll squat heavy and deep and then a month or so out from outdoors i’ll drop down to quarter squats with the emphasis on speed and more specificity. I figure that quarter squats are more specific to the kind of knee/hip angles that i’ll be hitting during jumping and also reduce the risk of soreness leading up to competitions. furthermore I feel like when squatting deep although the first part of the range is loaded, the latter part of the squat is too easy and so not being stressed which is the part of the range which you use when jumping (hip flexors/upper quads), whereas when you quarter squat you are able to lift heavier then you could deep squat and so are able to stress the upper/latter part of the squat movement. hope this makes sense….
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that said, a part of me thinks that if you do only deep squats, the overall strength gain will lead to improved quarter squatting ability anyway. also deep squats will develop strength through the whole range and reduce the risk of muscle imbalance that quarter squats could maybe cause. basically I don’t really know. Joe Steele does only deep squats and not a lot more and he’s achieved massive strength gains and has huge jumping ability. interesting debate
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I like partial squats for a variety of reasons. Firstly, partial squats can benefit the lifter by introducing him/her to heavier loads ultimately allowing the lifter to squat heavier in the half or full squat. I use bench press as an example. Almost any powerlifter worth his salt swears by some kind of of partial rep as key core training means for increasing full range bench press. Board presses, floor presses, chains, bands etc. are all designed to eliminate or reduce the load over the full range, concentrating the effort on the less portion of the rep. Everyone I know that uses board presses etc. believes that they have benefited tremendously from this practice. Benefits include reduced CNS load, ability to perform more work in a session, improved confidence in their ability to handle the big loads, etc.
Secondly, I like partials for working the explosive end of the velocity-time curve. As Matt mentioned, partial squats are slightly more specific. I really believe in trying to work the full velocity-time curve with a range of exercises, i.e. full squats, partial squats, the Olympic lifts, box jumps with weighted vest, unresisted box jumps, steep hills and sleds, plyos, bounds and finally sprinting. If you full squat and run only, with maybe a few plyos thrown in, there is a big gap between the exercise you use to improve force output and the exercises you use to improve power output. I like to connect the dots.
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I like partial squats for a variety of reasons. Firstly, partial squats can benefit the lifter by introducing him/her to heavier loads ultimately allowing the lifter to squat heavier in the half or full squat. I use bench press as an example. Almost any powerlifter worth his salt swears by some kind of of partial rep as key core training means for increasing full range bench press. Board presses, floor presses, chains, bands etc. are all designed to eliminate or reduce the load over the full range, concentrating the effort on the less portion of the rep. Everyone I know that uses board presses etc. believes that they have benefited tremendously from this practice. Benefits include reduced CNS load, ability to perform more work in a session, improved confidence in their ability to handle the big loads, etc.
Secondly, I like partials for working the explosive end of the velocity-time curve. As Matt mentioned, partial squats are slightly more specific. I really believe in trying to work the full velocity-time curve with a range of exercises, i.e. full squats, partial squats, the Olympic lifts, box jumps with weighted vest, unresisted box jumps, steep hills and sleds, plyos, bounds and finally sprinting. If you full squat and run only, with maybe a few plyos thrown in, there is a big gap between the exercise you use to improve force output and the exercises you use to improve power output. I like to connect the dots.
Sounds all great – but what about athletes……..
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ParticipantI agree fully with Star…he pretty much said what I was going to say….
Also o add, before I left Manhattan College I never did any squats below a partial. Back then I could partial squat 600 lbs but my deep squat max was only 270 or so. Now I could do no where near 600 lbs for a partial squat and can deep squat 340. A small gain in deep squat and a huge loss in partial squat over the years…
What does this suggest or mean do you think?
Deep, half and partial should be done all year in my opinion with switching emphasis a certain points…
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I agree fully with Star…he pretty much said what I was going to say….
Also o add, before I left Manhattan College I never did any squats below a partial. Back then I could partial squat 600 lbs but my deep squat max was only 270 or so. Now I could do no where near 600 lbs for a partial squat and can deep squat 340. A small gain in deep squat and a huge loss in partial squat over the years…
What does this suggest or mean do you think?
Deep, half and partial should be done all year in my opinion with switching emphasis a certain points…
Not trying to start conflict but I wonder how do you have a recomendation as to when partial squats should be done but do not know the implications in loosing the ability to partial 600lbs? Doesn’t make sense to me.
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My coach has coached jumps for 40 years and always used partials (as well as parallel) with his athletes. He doesn’t necessarily believe in the whole ‘specificity’ argument for including partials. Rather as a way to develop specific qualities related to withstanding impact forces, including core strength. The highest I’ve gone is 375k for partials… throw the stability ball out the window!
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as a jumper, for last couple of years i’ve used quarter squats as a follow on from deep squats in the winter.
This seems to be a popular approach in jump programmes. Although not one I personally agree with. Does anyone know the origin of this approach? And what are peoples thoughts on injury risks under super heavy loads, particularly the load on the spine.
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[quote author="Matt Morsia" date="1340807121"]as a jumper, for last couple of years i’ve used quarter squats as a follow on from deep squats in the winter.
This seems to be a popular approach in jump programmes. Although not one I personally agree with. Does anyone know the origin of this approach? And what are peoples thoughts on injury risks under super heavy loads, particularly the load on the spine.[/quote]
I’ve implemented quarter squats with the protocol i’ve gotten from Seagrave. These are done for speed emphasis with quick turnaround. Typically 1sec/1sec down..timed. Begning with body weight in say…4×6 and increase weight and reps for that cycle. The weight only gets as heavy as the athlete can still maintain the 1sec up/ 1sec down.
Its funny how you can say something like Partial Squat, Quarter Squat, and everyone have a different protocol…
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I’ve implemented quarter squats with the protocol i’ve gotten from Seagrave. These are done for speed emphasis with quick turnaround. Typically 1sec/1sec down..timed. Begning with body weight in say…4×6 and increase weight and reps for that cycle. The weight only gets as heavy as the athlete can still maintain the 1sec up/ 1sec down.
My coach also uses a similar protocol, the speed of the drop increases the eccentric intensity.
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[quote author="NickJumps" date="1340839218"]I agree fully with Star…he pretty much said what I was going to say….
Also o add, before I left Manhattan College I never did any squats below a partial. Back then I could partial squat 600 lbs but my deep squat max was only 270 or so. Now I could do no where near 600 lbs for a partial squat and can deep squat 340. A small gain in deep squat and a huge loss in partial squat over the years…
What does this suggest or mean do you think?
Deep, half and partial should be done all year in my opinion with switching emphasis a certain points…
Not trying to start conflict but I wonder how do you have a recomendation as to when partial squats should be done but do not know the implications in loosing the ability to partial 600lbs? Doesn’t make sense to me.[/quote]
You misunderstood. I was merely trying to create discussion. I asked that question, questioning the relevance and importance of a heavy partial squat as I jump further from all approach lengths now compared to back then. Again, for discussion that’s all. I am not stating they are not important, as I feel they are.
I was not asking why has my partial squat dropped, I am fully aware why that happened. I haven’t done them consistantly in years because of back issues, it’s that simple.
The way I would program with them was an ideal way only. Not something I have been able to do however.
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I always get itb problems when doing partial range movements.
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@UT- Definitely the demands of an athlete’s sport, including all relevant training, has to be considered. Much of this type of work begins in off season. I like complex and contrast training for most sub-elite athletes (less useful as status progresses) and of course I believe in periodization. I believe you progress from a non-specific training emphasis to specific training emphasis, and can cycle that emphasis (in terms of intensity of load and velocity of movement) at the microcycle, mesocycle and/or macrocycle levels, while still touching on all phases year round. You just have to work it in where appropriate and manageable. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t be on this board several times a week trying to figure it out.;’)
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The reason I do partial squats is more practical than theoretical.
I need a strong stimulus in order to maintain strength just before and during the competition season.
Since I only lift twice a week, I can’t handle large volumes of squatting without getting sore and impacting track and OL training more than desired, and that impact grows in significance as the season progresses.
So, I use partial squats, pretty much with the same weight as full squats, in order to both get sufficient training stimulus and not mess up the rest of my training. I might vary the speed of execution, but that mostly depends on how I feel that particular day.
Oh, also, if I do full squats throughout the whole year, I won’t be able to find jeans that fit at all. -
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The reason I do partial squats is more practical than theoretical.
I need a strong stimulus in order to maintain strength just before and during the competition season.
Since I only lift twice a week, I can’t handle large volumes of squatting without getting sore and impacting track and OL training more than desired, and that impact grows in significance as the season progresses.
So, I use partial squats, pretty much with the same weight as full squats, in order to both get sufficient training stimulus and not mess up the rest of my training. I might vary the speed of execution, but that mostly depends on how I feel that particular day.
Oh, also, if I do full squats throughout the whole year, I won’t be able to find jeans that fit at all.Your resaoning of stimulus..without the impact of full squating…mirrors why I do them and why most programs do it in SPP/Comp phases.
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Also, in terms of load during partials, I’m not a huge fan of super maximal loading in a partial squat. For max strength development it’s useful to load at 105-110% and go as deep as possible, maybe 2-3″ above parallel, and we might even go 125-150% 4-5″ above parallel with bands from the top reducing the load at bottom. All of this is done with spotters and in a cage. These are all on the slow, high force end of the curve and may not be suitable for all athletes except possibly during off season if max strength is a key weakness.
We also use very shallow (quarter squat or less), really explosive squats and jump squats. The loads are much lighter, 30-60% of 1RM. This is somewhere in the middle of the force-velocity curve, and blends into loaded (vest) box jumps, which is even a little further down the curve.
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If it were that simple, we wouldn’t be on this board several times a week trying to figure it out.;’)
Or several times per day, haha.
The times i’ve used heavy partials I have always placed them immediately after accel and max strength development. It becomes my heavy squat stimulus but I find it doesn’t tighten up my lower back as much as parallel or deep squats and allows mobility to stay high so it doesn’t impact the newly introduced maxv work.
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From experience, I have found partials excellent at maintaining strength, this of course is du to organism strength!
Further partials if used correctly are the same as doing chain or band squats to improve RFD I know star you like a focus on RFD.
This for me aids that exact thing -
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@UT- Definitely the demands of an athlete’s sport, including all relevant training, has to be considered. Much of this type of work begins in off season. I like complex and contrast training for most sub-elite athletes (less useful as status progresses) and of course I believe in periodization. I believe you progress from a non-specific training emphasis to specific training emphasis, and can cycle that emphasis (in terms of intensity of load and velocity of movement) at the microcycle, mesocycle and/or macrocycle levels, while still touching on all phases year round. You just have to work it in where appropriate and manageable. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t be on this board several times a week trying to figure it out.;’)
I don’t have much time – but the only time we have used any type of lower body partial movements is when we are in the teaching phase and the athletes may have mobility issues etc that keep them from reaching proper depth…… I don’t see much usage of partial movements – floor press etc for sprinters and maybe partial squats over the final month of the season… Bol with your weightlifters training….
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maybe the answer is to do both all year round? one of the main issues with full squatting is the soreness it creates which inhibits other aspects of training but surely if you do it all year round you will quickly adapt and avoid the soreness whilst still achieving massive strength gains. i’m pretty tempted to try it next year
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Since i was the one who got you thinking about it i’ll add in.
Train all parts of the time/power curve, people agree on that. Powerlifters strengthen partial movements when they stop improving on the full thing and we wont need to go that far. Seeing as weights are the slowest part of the curve, theres no need to complicate it. Just do the things that will get you the most bang for your buck and that would be clean, FULL squat and bench (i do push press). There are much more health benefits for doing full compound movements over small ones.
I guarantee, reguardless of what Nick said about his own experience if you get stronger in the full squat, your quarter will be stronger. Your muscles contract too slow still for quater squats so it’s not a good enough reason to say they are working on another part of the curve, and if you want fast then standing up from a power clean, or doing a push press will be much faster, but still much slower than plyos, throws or sprints.
Full squats are easier than half. This is why olympics lifters can lift very heavy everyday. It’s healthier on the knee joints, less stress on your spine and core, and you get used to them quite quickly so you shouldnt ache after a couple of weeks.
Go on google images, type “baby squat”. This is how we naturally squat, before we develop our brains enough to overcomplicate it.
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Actually im gonna throw the whole isometric stuff into this boiling pot!!
basically what im going to refer to is the use of EMS, no one can deny the strength gains and the sprint cross over achieved from this when used correctly.
This is obvioulsy not full range (just like the quarter squat) achieves a full muscle contrction (just like the QS)
You need a full hard contraction to ensure all fibre types are hit, and this is very raely achived with a full squat, as already stated certain ranges are harder then others. whereas with a ‘heavy’ partial and it has to be heavy, this is negated as all the fibres are activated.so in essence what im elluding to is these can be used in place of EMS.
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Joe that is not correct. A full squat wouldn’t overload the top end of the squat because it’d be way too light. Its actually obvious why the partial wouldn’t improve if it is never stressed.
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Joe that is not correct. A full squat wouldn’t overload the top end of the squat because it’d be way too light. Its actually obvious why the partial wouldn’t improve if it is never stressed.
So you claim
Ok ill add more, but i know no one will ever change your mind on anything.
Full develops quads and glutes much more than quarter. More fibres to use for the little movement will mean stronger, it will just take a few weeks practice. Also, look at weightlifters. They can partial squat a hell of a lot, they do it everty time they jerk and that weight has to feel like nothing in the dip, and they dont do quaters.
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Please explain to me how you OVERLOAD a quarter squat while doing a full squat.
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Please explain to me how you OVERLOAD a quarter squat while doing a full squat.
I edited my post. Didnt you always say in the past that you dont need to overload to improve? You have stated many times you have got stronger on lighter weights. Not my belief but you contradict yourself if thats correct.
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Are you joking? Never have I ever said you don’t need to overload to improve.
Ill ask again how do you stress the partial range enough during a full squat for that to be best way to increase quarter squat loading?
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I find it very interesting that you are now being a prick towards me after all
the pm’s you’ve sent me over the years. Please stop Joe as this is going no where.Fact is the best way to increase quarter squat load is to do them heavy
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See, ive already told you. You create more muscle fibres in the SAME muscles used to quarter.
Ive never done quater, but my full would be about the same as your quater i would guess. Does this mean i would quarter squat less than my full squat??
This is only part of the debate though. Why would you need to be strong in quarter anyway? Its not specific
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Im not being a prick at all, im telling my beliefs as you do. If im coming across agressive or rude then i dont mean to be. The site has been too quiet and im just trying to stir it up abit.
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Quarter isn’t specific? It what way?
If you can full squat 500 lbs then well done. Your quarter would be more. That’s obvious. This isn’t the point.
The best way to increase the quarter wouldn’t be to only full squat.
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It’s over 500, but that doesnt matter.
The best way to improve quater would be to mix full and quarter. Full will give your body much more of a boost than quarter (testosterone, growth hormone levels). Quarter isnt specific because its far too deep. I dont think weights should be used for anything specific. Just to get the raw torque.
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I agree, as mentioned just above, the best way is to include both full reps and partial reps. And I normally write with all speed/power athletes in mind, not just sprinters. However, if athletes don’t personally have the time to partial squat or bench, ever, I understand. If its too much of a hassle to throw a couple of bands over the top of the rack or have a couple of spotters help you with board presses, I understand. If you feel you are already hitting enough points along the force-velocity curve, awesome. But partials work very well for building max strength, improving 1RM in the full range movement, and with lighter loads, as an explosive strength/RFD tool. Some people don’t like sleds, some people don’t like weighted vest jumps. They are bread and butter people. But that doesn’t mean partials are any less effective for building both strength and power for those that choose to keep a wider array of tools in their chest.
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Interesting thread…(hopefully everyone continues to play nice…)
I attended a high jump clinic where the coach advocated a pyramid approach to squats for high jumpers:
1) Full Squats (3-6) reps
2) Add weight – 3/4 squats
3) Add more weight – 1/2 squats
4) Add even more weight – 1/4 squatsSo basically he decreased the range of motion while adding additional load for each set.
Granted – this was a high school program – but thought it was a novel way to approach squats within the constraints (time and facilities) many HS coaches face.
Haven’t tried it with the kids I coach…
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Couple of thoughts for conversation.
What’s the carryover for eccentric strength? Everyone here is talking about concentric and the % effort of contraction needed for maximal fiber recruitment but eccentric strength is by far the more important ability when it comes to anything after 30m, imo. Shouldn’t the increased load be a good way to develop eccentric strength, especially in the joint angles experiences during post accel?
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Absolutely. That’s a key reason why a quarter squat is specific for the jumps certainly.
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I don’t get it…why does everyone think to run fast or jump far you have to lift heavy on this site. Why does the conversation always center around how many KG’s or LBS instead of focusing on achieving the goal/stimulus of the movement and letting that dictate everything else.
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There’s actually only a hand full of people that think lifting heavy often is the answer.
On the topic of heavy eccentric quarters while in Portugal I watched a slightly good jumper named Marian oprea performing quite a few of them
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Because a large amount of people who run fast can also lift heavy. Whether or not they can lift heavy because they run fast is a chicken/egg argument. They can do both so we need to talk about both. We’re talking right now about a specific means to increase qualities needed to run fast, such as eccentric ability. The title of the thread is partial squats so that is what we’re talking about right now.
Are squats the only means necessary to develop these qualities? Absolutely not. it can certainly be done with plyos, jumps, single leg work, etc.
We have conversations because that’s how ideas form, new methods are thought up, tested, and seen whether they work or not. Unlike other track sites, this one is founded by a scientist and that right there is why some of us get irritated when people come in with closed minds. We’re interested in the physiology behind why something does or doesn’t work and have conversations about it instead of just saying “it doesn’t work”. That’s how this site was started and that’s how I intend on going about my business here.
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Because a large amount of people who run fast can also lift heavy. Whether or not they can lift heavy because they run fast is a chicken/egg argument. They can do both so we need to talk about both. We’re talking right now about a specific means to increase qualities needed to run fast, such as eccentric ability. The title of the thread is partial squats so that is what we’re talking about right now.
Are squats the only means necessary to develop these qualities? Absolutely not. it can certainly be done with plyos, jumps, single leg work, etc.
We have conversations because that’s how ideas form, new methods are thought up, tested, and seen whether they work or not. Unlike other track sites, this one is founded by a scientist and that right there is why some of us get irritated when people come in with closed minds. We’re interested in the physiology behind why something does or doesn’t work and have conversations about it instead of just saying “it doesn’t work”. That’s how this site was started and that’s how I intend on going about my business here.
I certainly get it…my point behind the statement was to get folks to think outside of the box. Its not an accident that everyone on this site has similar methods (so focused on max strength) and consequently have similar undesirable results.
Not sure if you realize but most top athletes do not work with their sprint coach for weight training….they have strength and conditioning coaches that have the faintest clue of what the track athlete is doing on the track. More isolation that you realize. What does that tell us about partial squats?
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Most top athletes? ? ?
That statement is completely false.
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[quote author="Josh Hurlebaus" date="1340921321"]Because a large amount of people who run fast can also lift heavy. Whether or not they can lift heavy because they run fast is a chicken/egg argument. They can do both so we need to talk about both. We’re talking right now about a specific means to increase qualities needed to run fast, such as eccentric ability. The title of the thread is partial squats so that is what we’re talking about right now.
Are squats the only means necessary to develop these qualities? Absolutely not. it can certainly be done with plyos, jumps, single leg work, etc.
We have conversations because that’s how ideas form, new methods are thought up, tested, and seen whether they work or not. Unlike other track sites, this one is founded by a scientist and that right there is why some of us get irritated when people come in with closed minds. We’re interested in the physiology behind why something does or doesn’t work and have conversations about it instead of just saying “it doesn’t work”. That’s how this site was started and that’s how I intend on going about my business here.
I certainly get it…my point behind the statement was to get folks to think outside of the box. Its not an accident that everyone on this site has similar methods (so focused on max strength) and consequently have similar undesirable results.
Not sure if you realize but most top athletes do not work with their sprint coach for weight training….they have strength and conditioning coaches that have the faintest clue of what the track athlete is doing on the track. More isolation that you realize. What does that tell us about partial squats?[/quote]
This is a conversation for a different thread. Start a new thread on the importance of max strength in a sprinters training and we can continue it there.
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Most top athletes? ? ?
That statement is completely false.
Brauman, Mitchell, Kersee, Smith, Seagrave, Henry…do not manage the lifting.
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This is a conversation for a different thread. Start a new thread on the importance of max strength in a sprinters training and we can continue it there.[/quote]
*******************************************************************************************This is your opinion which…doesn’t govern how I conduct my business on this site…
Furthermore, it adds flavor to the discussion as most folks are looking at the conversation from a “lets do heavy partial squats” perspective. Why? Maybe the commonalities of eccentric strenghth in world class athletes are developed not by specific means but an inadvertent approach?I just gave a nugget where I posted the thoughts of a renowned coach and partial squats and no one even gave a thought to it. On to the next topic I guess.
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Bourne, Stanley, Moura, pfaff, Aston Moore, Reid, Fischer to name a few …do
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Bourne, Stanley, Moura, pfaff, Aston Moore, Reid, Fischer to name a few …do
Good now compare the results from this week and last…medal counts etc.
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This is a conversation for a different thread. Start a new thread on the importance of max strength in a sprinters training and we can continue it there.
*******************************************************************************************[b]This is your opinion which…doesn’t govern how I conduct my business on this site…[/b]
No, this isn’t. It’s how sites operate. A topic is chosen and a thread is started. Topics that deviate used to be split into new threads back when this site had active moderation. It no longer as active of moderation, ergo we have to take it upon ourselves to make this site operate efficiently and cleanly.
You have valid thoughts and ideas. Start a new thread and you will have active participants.
Furthermore, it adds flavor to the discussion as most folks are looking at the conversation from a “lets do heavy partial squats” perspective. Why? Maybe the commonalities of eccentric strenghth in world class athletes are developed not by specific means but an inadvertent approach?
I just gave a nugget where I posted the thoughts of a renowned coach and partial squats and no one even gave a thought to it. On to the next topic I guess.
That is completely plausible but entirely irrelevant to the discussion in this thread, which is the role of partial squats, NOT whether max strength plays a role in training. Start a new thread and keep this one clean for discussion of partial squats.
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[quote author="the_chosen_one" date="1340923272"]This is a conversation for a different thread. Start a new thread on the importance of max strength in a sprinters training and we can continue it there.
*******************************************************************************************[b]This is your opinion which…doesn’t govern how I conduct my business on this site…[/b]
No, this isn’t. It’s how sites operate. A topic is chosen and a thread is started. Topics that deviate used to be split into new threads back when this site had active moderation. It no longer as active of moderation, ergo we have to take it upon ourselves to make this site operate efficiently and cleanly.
You have valid thoughts and ideas. Start a new thread and you will have active participants.
Furthermore, it adds flavor to the discussion as most folks are looking at the conversation from a “lets do heavy partial squats” perspective. Why? Maybe the commonalities of eccentric strenghth in world class athletes are developed not by specific means but an inadvertent approach?
I just gave a nugget where I posted the thoughts of a renowned coach and partial squats and no one even gave a thought to it. On to the next topic I guess.
That is completely plausible but entirely irrelevant to the discussion in this thread, which is the role of partial squats, NOT whether max strength plays a role in training. Start a new thread and keep this one clean for discussion of partial squats.[/quote]
Your response is laughable..you can’t seriously think you yourself determines what’s relevant…
Given I think its very relevant….reasoning for me inserting it in this thread and NOT starting a new one.
Anyway…back on topic Junior please
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Chosen One,
Start a new topic for an open discussion as Josh has already said. I’ve read a few of your posts and every one of them basically says that you’re right, everyone else is wrong. Just start a new topic and lets see what everyone has to say.I don’t do an eccentric squat or partial squat but I am interested to see what others think about the correlation between max strength and sprint training.
It’s a lot easier to come on here and rip guys for their thoughts and opinions when you don’t have your name listed as your handle.
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Participant
[quote author="Josh Hurlebaus" date="1340923795"][quote author="the_chosen_one" date="1340923272"]This is a conversation for a different thread. Start a new thread on the importance of max strength in a sprinters training and we can continue it there.
*******************************************************************************************[b]This is your opinion which…doesn’t govern how I conduct my business on this site…[/b]
No, this isn’t. It’s how sites operate. A topic is chosen and a thread is started. Topics that deviate used to be split into new threads back when this site had active moderation. It no longer as active of moderation, ergo we have to take it upon ourselves to make this site operate efficiently and cleanly.
You have valid thoughts and ideas. Start a new thread and you will have active participants.
Furthermore, it adds flavor to the discussion as most folks are looking at the conversation from a “lets do heavy partial squats” perspective. Why? Maybe the commonalities of eccentric strenghth in world class athletes are developed not by specific means but an inadvertent approach?
I just gave a nugget where I posted the thoughts of a renowned coach and partial squats and no one even gave a thought to it. On to the next topic I guess.
That is completely plausible but entirely irrelevant to the discussion in this thread, which is the role of partial squats, NOT whether max strength plays a role in training. Start a new thread and keep this one clean for discussion of partial squats.[/quote]
Your response is laughable..you can’t seriously think you yourself determines what’s relevant…
Given I think its very relevant….reasoning for me inserting it in this thread and NOT starting a new one.
Anyway…back on topic Junior please[/quote]
So go ahead and laugh. Your personal attacks remove any weight whatever argument you are making would have as you seem to be unable to defend a position without resorting to emotion.
You entered this thread by attacking a training method (which is fine and to be encouraged to some extent for discussion) but when pressed immediately began attacking the people on the site who use those methods (which you have also grossly misrepresented).
Like Danny said, you don’t have a name attached to you so everything you say is also immediately taken with a grain of salt and your post in the extending acceleration thread shows your bias. You bring up peak elite athletes and use them as examples of training when the majority of sprinters can glean little from their training as they are genetically more gifted and are able to train full time with a range of recovery and training modalities we simply don’t have.
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Has anybody increased strength whilst maintaining the same body weight and got slower? Assuming you don’t change what you do on the track.
I think in regards to partial versus full squats it depends a lot on the development stage of the athlete. I switched from partial squats to full squats and seen a lot of improvements in terms of my running mechanics. However, the long jump take off is different to sprinting.
Also, how deep are we talking?
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Participant
[quote author="NickJumps" date="1340923472"]Bourne, Stanley, Moura, pfaff, Aston Moore, Reid, Fischer to name a few …do
Good now compare the results from this week and last…medal counts etc.[/quote]
Shall we look at the history of the above coaches as well?
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Participant
This deep for me Callum. I just mean Full depth or ATG.
This is more about jumping than max speed though because the OP is a jumper. I actually do a very slow eccentric movement when i do back squat, but i finish it instead of dumping the bar. I never used to do any form of eccentrics, only this year and i only had 2 weeks to jump this year but it seemed to improve.
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Participant
Saying that, when people are talking about deep here, is it actually olympic lifter deep or powerlifter deep? Ive only ever stuck to olympic style and never looked back. But have just mixed pausing at the bottom with slow eccentric.
And when people say quarter, is it actually quarter (which i think is deep if your trying to mimic jumping) or just a slight knee flexion?
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Participant
When I say deep I mean ATG, half is parallel/90 degree, 1/4 is ~45degree angle
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Participant
This is a conversation for a different thread. Start a new thread on the importance of max strength in a sprinters training and we can continue it there.
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This is your opinion which…doesn’t govern how I conduct my business on this site…
Furthermore, it adds flavor to the discussion as most folks are looking at the conversation from a “lets do heavy partial squats” perspective. Why? Maybe the commonalities of eccentric strenghth in world class athletes are developed not by specific means but an inadvertent approach?I just gave a nugget where I posted the thoughts of a renowned coach and partial squats and no one even gave a thought to it. On to the next topic I guess.
Charlie Francis was one of the most respected track coaches around. From every video I have ever seen with Charlie’s sprinters, including Ben, they did partial squats (well above parallel)almost exclusively and certainly included very heavy squats, with Ben doing reps with 600+.
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Participant
Nick: one way to overload the partial squat while doing a full squat is to use dungeon equipment (chains, bands, whips during the second half of the ascent).
Why do all people here think they need heavy lifting? I doubt it’s all, but some of us – the ones on the heavier side and with longer limbs (which leads to longer contact times) – need that strength in order to push the ground.
A half squat isn’t 90°. And the ATG thing causes me to utilize muscles in a weird way while coming out of the hole. I think OL lifters are forced to go ATG because they catch the bar in that position on account of it being too heavy to pull to a greater height. And they bounce their hams off their calves 🙂
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Participant
Agreed the discussion is pro and cons of partials either heavy or light, let’s keep it there please (if you wanna discuss max strength there is a wicked thread still available called Bear strength or something not sure if still available tbh)
We have to remember the force time curve and also apply this to muscle mechanics! The reality is a full squat will never be able to fully cross over with full contraction either eccentric or concentric at the top end of the range where the muscles are strongest.
It is within this range that we are in contact with the ground either when jumping or at top sprint speed
Also worth considering the tendon actions within heavy partial :-/
I can’t change my I’d name but my twitter is there lol haha
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Participant
Nick: one way to overload the partial squat while doing a full squat is to use dungeon equipment (chains, bands, whips during the second half of the ascent).
Why do all people here think they need heavy lifting? I doubt it’s all, but some of us – the ones on the heavier side and with longer limbs (which leads to longer contact times) – need that strength in order to push the ground.
A half squat isn’t 90%. And the ATG thing causes me to utilize muscles in a weird way while coming out of the hole. I think OL lifters are forced to go ATG because they catch the bar in that position on account of it being too heavy to pull to a greater height. And they bounce their hams off their calves 🙂
Understand but we were talking about regular full squats only.
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Participant
So is it worth saying ….
Full squats could/should be used with bands or chains in order effect RFD?
Star I know you may wanna jump in on this with your past
Actually, I personally am not a fan of chains for much of anything, although they have usefulness for max strength work. Lifters I work out with primarily use bands from the bottom that allow you to explode up with a fairly reasonable weight, but as you extend the weight increases rapidly, but again that’s max strength. I personally like bands from the top, which effectively increases load as you rise (like bands from the bottom) but also help guide you straight up and are not so oppressive. Again, all the above are max strength uses of bands etc.
Bands could be used for RFD, assisting the athlete at the lower end of the partial squat as he explodes up, but I personally have never used bands for any type of higher speed movement.
For RFD, I have used an explosive speed partial squat with enough weight so even when exploding up at 100% effort, you can’t leave the ground. I don’t like jumping with barbells bouncing on the shoulders, so the next progression after the speed partial squat would be box jumps with a weighted vest. If you are capable of doing a decent clean, you can substitute the clean for the high speed squat, but from my experience, most lifters don’t have the proper technique, hence speed partial squats and weighted vest jumps, which are both extremely easy movements.
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Participant
i know this has probably been explained loads of times but what’s the difference between a standard full squat and an olympic full squat? is it that a standard full is strict whereas olympic is more knees over ankles?
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Participant
going back to partials… if we’re saying that partial squats are more specific to jumping/sprinting, would partial jump squats not be even more specific? i’ve been partial squatting for the last 6 weeks ish and more recently have started taking off at the top of the squat. im still lifting heavy but by jumping i feel like the squat becomes much faster and is surely much more specific to jumping performance? i see some people partial squat and the end of the movement becomes slow as they are trying to stop the bar from jumping up off their back. but…. by completing the squat with a jump it forces you to make the final (most specific) few degrees of the movement much quicker which surely then transfers to jumping performance even more
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Participant
and then… leading on from partial jump squats – surely single leg partial jump squats would then be even more specific? i think a lot of double leg stuff doesn’t necessarily transfer over to jumping performance because the load is reduced and the impact is unrealistic. an example of this would be depth jumping… i’ve seen a few guys who look great when doing two footed rebound jumps off a box but then when they try to land a hop (single leg) they just crumble and so don’t go anywhere. i reckon to achieve the ultimate specificity (for jumpers in particular), everything should be single leg, both in terms of weights and plyos. the only time i think double leg stuff is required is for younger athletes as an introduction to plyos and weights as going straight into single leg stuff would be pretty hardcore
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Participant
having said that… most of my weights and a lot of my plyos are double leg so i’m not really practising what i preach. i might just go all out next year with the single leg stuff and see what happens. surely you can still achieve all of the training outcomes you want with single leg stuff but also get the added benefit of hugely increased specificity?? yea yea??
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Participant
i know this has probably been explained loads of times but what’s the difference between a standard full squat and an olympic full squat? is it that a standard full is strict whereas olympic is more knees over ankles?
It’s the same I believe, the difference is between Olympic style squat and a power lifting style squat.
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Participant
and then… leading on from partial jump squats – surely single leg partial jump squats would then be even more specific? i think a lot of double leg stuff doesn’t necessarily transfer over to jumping performance because the load is reduced and the impact is unrealistic. an example of this would be depth jumping… i’ve seen a few guys who look great when doing two footed rebound jumps off a box but then when they try to land a hop (single leg) they just crumble and so don’t go anywhere. i reckon to achieve the ultimate specificity (for jumpers in particular), everything should be single leg, both in terms of weights and plyos. the only time i think double leg stuff is required is for younger athletes as an introduction to plyos and weights as going straight into single leg stuff would be pretty hardcore
And this is why weights arent meant to be specific, but to just gain the needed strength base. Which is so easy to do, only take 2 hours week, no assistants, no chains etc. Just to gain a little stength, THEN transfer it to the real specific stuff. Single leg squatting is somewhat of a skill and you would never do half the weight of your normal squat, and will not have the same strength gains.
Its the same reason people do planks, leg raises etc, its not specific but will help.
Isnt this what the Jamaicans are doing? Everything is general in the gym while everyone else is overcomplicating everything.
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Participant
[quote author="Matt Morsia" date="1340990227"]and then… leading on from partial jump squats – surely single leg partial jump squats would then be even more specific? i think a lot of double leg stuff doesn’t necessarily transfer over to jumping performance because the load is reduced and the impact is unrealistic. an example of this would be depth jumping… i’ve seen a few guys who look great when doing two footed rebound jumps off a box but then when they try to land a hop (single leg) they just crumble and so don’t go anywhere. i reckon to achieve the ultimate specificity (for jumpers in particular), everything should be single leg, both in terms of weights and plyos. the only time i think double leg stuff is required is for younger athletes as an introduction to plyos and weights as going straight into single leg stuff would be pretty hardcore
And this is why weights arent meant to be specific, but to just gain the needed strength base. Which is so easy to do, only take 2 hours week, no assistants, no chains etc. Just to gain a little stength, THEN transfer it to the real specific stuff. Single leg squatting is somewhat of a skill and you would never do half the weight of your normal squat, and will not have the same strength gains.
Its the same reason people do planks, leg raises etc, its not specific but will help.
Isnt this what the Jamaicans are doing? Everything is general in the gym while everyone else is overcomplicating everything.[/quote]
Thank you – always a certain group of people who overthink the strength training process. Let me stop before I go off on a rant….
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ParticipantAs the variables become more finite so does the decrease in impact in a program. I do think the details add up to the spectacular but if the primary variables are not in place we are focusing on things that have less transfer. Whatever the variable we must see if it has a major influence in isolation to training. Personally I believe the tiny variables are for individual prescription because of injuries or environment, not because it works for everyone.
Partials have benefits, but it’s likely to be a small percentage of a program, and we are talking on average of 2-3% improvements in time, how much are the above variable working? I think partials have some safe benefits during later season to keep things up without delaying recovery time, but I would spend 90% of my time going full range. (Just my opinion)
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Participant
[quote author="joe" date="1340992090"][quote author="Matt Morsia" date="1340990227"]and then… leading on from partial jump squats – surely single leg partial jump squats would then be even more specific? i think a lot of double leg stuff doesn’t necessarily transfer over to jumping performance because the load is reduced and the impact is unrealistic. an example of this would be depth jumping… i’ve seen a few guys who look great when doing two footed rebound jumps off a box but then when they try to land a hop (single leg) they just crumble and so don’t go anywhere. i reckon to achieve the ultimate specificity (for jumpers in particular), everything should be single leg, both in terms of weights and plyos. the only time i think double leg stuff is required is for younger athletes as an introduction to plyos and weights as going straight into single leg stuff would be pretty hardcore
And this is why weights arent meant to be specific, but to just gain the needed strength base. Which is so easy to do, only take 2 hours week, no assistants, no chains etc. Just to gain a little stength, THEN transfer it to the real specific stuff. Single leg squatting is somewhat of a skill and you would never do half the weight of your normal squat, and will not have the same strength gains.
Its the same reason people do planks, leg raises etc, its not specific but will help.
Isnt this what the Jamaicans are doing? Everything is general in the gym while everyone else is overcomplicating everything.[/quote]
Thank you – always a certain group of people who overthink the strength training process. Let me stop before I go off on a rant….[/quote]
Seems to be common to over think it all doesn’t it. Funny how the majority of the simple programs produce the most consistent results. My personal success has always been best with linear strength training, simple sprint progression, and then a reduction of volume for a test.
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Participant
I am in huge favor of specific and unilateral weight room exercises. I’ve had good results from them for myself and many of my athletes. From Sept-Jan I was able to do my idea progressions and periodization including a 6 week phase of specific lifts and from it I had my biggest gains including pr’s in flys, short approaches and also a meet PR. I am many progressions for them if your interested.
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Participant
I’m not sure what to think of the “over thinking it” comments. I don’t see how having a couple of squat variations is over thinking it. Are sleds over thinking it? Dumb over thinking Jamaicans. Are plyometrics over thinking it? Dumb, over thinking just about everyone.
Perhaps we should narrow it down for a moment and look at the literature. There are many articles comparing squats and sprinting only to squats and plyos and sprinting, explosive squats and sprinting, explosive squats and plyos and sprinting etc. etc. Anecdotal experiences are one thing, but if we want to have a real discussion, let’s collect all the pertinent articles and discuss the results.
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Participant
I’m not sure what to think of the “over thinking it” comments. I don’t see how having a couple of squat variations is over thinking it. Are sleds over thinking it? Dumb over thinking Jamaicans. Are plyometrics over thinking it? Dumb, over thinking just about everyone.
Perhaps we should narrow it down for a moment and look at the literature. There are many articles comparing squats and sprinting only to squats and plyos and sprinting, explosive squats and sprinting, explosive squats and plyos and sprinting etc. etc. Anecdotal experiences are one thing, but if we want to have a real discussion, let’s collect all the pertinent articles and discuss the results.
Star61,
With all of your options in your situation, what is the impact of the methodology you are having with quarter squats and specific improvements in sprinting? Since squats are more early block clearance and not max speed, what are the results with quarter squats? Where is that impacting the race? Some seem the partial range is mimicking joint angles, some like it for a general neuronal overflow, some like it because of soreness. What is the mechanism?
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Participant
[quote author="star61" date="1341025156"]I’m not sure what to think of the “over thinking it” comments. I don’t see how having a couple of squat variations is over thinking it. Are sleds over thinking it? Dumb over thinking Jamaicans. Are plyometrics over thinking it? Dumb, over thinking just about everyone.
Perhaps we should narrow it down for a moment and look at the literature. There are many articles comparing squats and sprinting only to squats and plyos and sprinting, explosive squats and sprinting, explosive squats and plyos and sprinting etc. etc. Anecdotal experiences are one thing, but if we want to have a real discussion, let’s collect all the pertinent articles and discuss the results.
Star61,
With all of your options in your situation, what is the impact of the methodology you are having with quarter squats and specific improvements in sprinting? Since squats are more early block clearance and not max speed, what are the results with quarter squats? Where is that impacting the race? Some seem the partial range is mimicking joint angles, some like it for a general neuronal overflow, some like it because of soreness. What is the mechanism?[/quote]First, I don’t like the term quarter squat, because it implies that you’re going half way to parallel. One way we employ a partial squat would be best described as a high box squat, short of parallel. It is simply a max strength variation that is easier on the athlete. Look a videos of Ben Johnson squatting heavy, and this is basically the type of squat I’m referring to there.
Another type of partial we do, which the one I think you’re asking me about, is similar to a jump squat. I don’t use the terms jump squat or squat jump because I don’t like my athlete’s feet leaving the ground for safety reasons, but the exercise looks like a jump squat that is overloaded to the point that the athlete comes up just short of leaving the ground. Each lifter descends to a comfortable depth and explodes up. Just as some descend deeper when doing a box jump, some descend lower than others when doing a partial explosive squat. Like all resistance work in the gym, the impact is in the general improvement of strength and RFD. In my mind, partial explosive squats fill the same roll that cleans do, at least as far as the posterior chain goes.
As far as what stage of the race it impacts, I would first say there is a lot of racing done between clearing the blocks and reaching Max V. This thread splintered off the acceleration thread, and there is abundant scientific data, and plenty of experiential data, to confirm the fact the explosive squats and/or olympic lifts can make a positive contribution to acceleration and show benefits out to 30m and beyond. A lot of races are won between 30m and 60m, and as our discussions have touched on in recent threads, acceleration is the process that ultimately controls Max V.
I’m not concerned about mimicking angles or pigeon holing an exercise into a theory of why it works. I’m much more a quantitative, empirical approach type of person and the empirical data from numerous studies indicates explosive partial squats have a positive impact on acceleration.
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Participant
[quote author="Carl Valle" date="1341025597"][quote author="star61" date="1341025156"]I’m not sure what to think of the “over thinking it” comments. I don’t see how having a couple of squat variations is over thinking it. Are sleds over thinking it? Dumb over thinking Jamaicans. Are plyometrics over thinking it? Dumb, over thinking just about everyone.
Perhaps we should narrow it down for a moment and look at the literature. There are many articles comparing squats and sprinting only to squats and plyos and sprinting, explosive squats and sprinting, explosive squats and plyos and sprinting etc. etc. Anecdotal experiences are one thing, but if we want to have a real discussion, let’s collect all the pertinent articles and discuss the results.
Star61,
With all of your options in your situation, what is the impact of the methodology you are having with quarter squats and specific improvements in sprinting? Since squats are more early block clearance and not max speed, what are the results with quarter squats? Where is that impacting the race? Some seem the partial range is mimicking joint angles, some like it for a general neuronal overflow, some like it because of soreness. What is the mechanism?[/quote]First, I don’t like the term quarter squat, because it implies that you’re going half way to parallel. One way we employ a partial squat would be best described as a high box squat, short of parallel. It is simply a max strength variation that is easier on the athlete. Look a videos of Ben Johnson squatting heavy, and this is basically the type of squat I’m referring to there.
Another type of partial we do, which the one I think you’re asking me about, is similar to a jump squat. I don’t use the terms jump squat or squat jump because I don’t like my athlete’s feet leaving the ground for safety reasons, but the exercise looks like a jump squat that is overloaded to the point that the athlete comes up just short of leaving the ground. Each lifter descends to a comfortable depth and explodes up. Just as some descend deeper when doing a box jump, some descend lower than others when doing a partial explosive squat. Like all resistance work in the gym, the impact is in the general improvement of strength and RFD. In my mind, partial explosive squats fill the same roll that cleans do, at least as far as the posterior chain goes.
As far as what stage of the race it impacts, I would first say there is a lot of racing done between clearing the blocks and reaching Max V. This thread splintered off the acceleration thread, and there is abundant scientific data, and plenty of experiential data, to confirm the fact the explosive squats and/or olympic lifts can make a positive contribution to acceleration and show benefits out to 30m and beyond. A lot of races are won between 30m and 60m, and as our discussions have touched on in recent threads, acceleration is the process that ultimately controls Max V.
I’m not concerned about mimicking angles or pigeon holing an exercise into a theory of why it works. I’m much more a quantitative, empirical approach type of person and the empirical data from numerous studies indicates explosive partial squats have a positive impact on acceleration.[/quote]
What research shows that squats/cleans help beyond 30m? As for RFD and explosive lifts, I think it would be good to show a video so we can see a better idea of what is going on.
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Participant
For those who don’t agree with quarter squats – Do you guys power clean/snatch or full clean/snatch?
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Participant
For those who don’t agree with quarter squats – Do you guys power clean/snatch or full clean/snatch?
Power nearly all the time. But this doesnt have any relevance. No one does p.cleans for the squat movement, it’s just another tool for RFD at a different point of the curve. The idea is to throw the bar as high as you can.
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Participant
Oh so the clean is all concentric then. No importance the eccentric part. Why do you catch the bar at all if its all about the pull?
Or you were talking about fiber recruitment with deep squats so why not pull high and catch low? Surely that’s the ultimate exercise no?
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Participant
[quote author="star61" date="1341203329"][quote author="Carl Valle" date="1341025597"][quote author="star61" date="1341025156"]I’m not sure what to think of the “over thinking it” comments. I don’t see how having a couple of squat variations is over thinking it. Are sleds over thinking it? Dumb over thinking Jamaicans. Are plyometrics over thinking it? Dumb, over thinking just about everyone.
Perhaps we should narrow it down for a moment and look at the literature. There are many articles comparing squats and sprinting only to squats and plyos and sprinting, explosive squats and sprinting, explosive squats and plyos and sprinting etc. etc. Anecdotal experiences are one thing, but if we want to have a real discussion, let’s collect all the pertinent articles and discuss the results.
Star61,
With all of your options in your situation, what is the impact of the methodology you are having with quarter squats and specific improvements in sprinting? Since squats are more early block clearance and not max speed, what are the results with quarter squats? Where is that impacting the race? Some seem the partial range is mimicking joint angles, some like it for a general neuronal overflow, some like it because of soreness. What is the mechanism?[/quote]First, I don’t like the term quarter squat, because it implies that you’re going half way to parallel. One way we employ a partial squat would be best described as a high box squat, short of parallel. It is simply a max strength variation that is easier on the athlete. Look a videos of Ben Johnson squatting heavy, and this is basically the type of squat I’m referring to there.
Another type of partial we do, which the one I think you’re asking me about, is similar to a jump squat. I don’t use the terms jump squat or squat jump because I don’t like my athlete’s feet leaving the ground for safety reasons, but the exercise looks like a jump squat that is overloaded to the point that the athlete comes up just short of leaving the ground. Each lifter descends to a comfortable depth and explodes up. Just as some descend deeper when doing a box jump, some descend lower than others when doing a partial explosive squat. Like all resistance work in the gym, the impact is in the general improvement of strength and RFD. In my mind, partial explosive squats fill the same roll that cleans do, at least as far as the posterior chain goes.
As far as what stage of the race it impacts, I would first say there is a lot of racing done between clearing the blocks and reaching Max V. This thread splintered off the acceleration thread, and there is abundant scientific data, and plenty of experiential data, to confirm the fact the explosive squats and/or olympic lifts can make a positive contribution to acceleration and show benefits out to 30m and beyond. A lot of races are won between 30m and 60m, and as our discussions have touched on in recent threads, acceleration is the process that ultimately controls Max V.
I’m not concerned about mimicking angles or pigeon holing an exercise into a theory of why it works. I’m much more a quantitative, empirical approach type of person and the empirical data from numerous studies indicates explosive partial squats have a positive impact on acceleration.[/quote]
What research shows that squats/cleans help beyond 30m? As for RFD and explosive lifts, I think it would be good to show a video so we can see a better idea of what is going on.[/quote]There is very, very little research that shows ANYTHING works from 30m on. I’m not talking about speed endurance here, just acceleration and Max V. But I don’t limit myself to tools and methods that only improve Max V. As far as a video, there is no human on this website or any other that can analyze an exercise and know empirically that it will or will not contribute to improvements in Max V. If you have an exercise or any other tool, other than sprinting, that has been documented to improve sprint performance after 30m, please share it with the group.
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Participant
For Joe…
You obviously have great technique in the Olympic lifts. But, if you developed an injury (shoulder etc.) that made it impossible to pull (no cleans, no jerks, no high pulls) or throw a medicine ball, what resisted exercise would you choose to hit that part of the curve and as a replacement for the Olympic lifts? Would you then even consider explosive squats or weighted jumps of any kind?
Thanks,
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Participant
[quote author="Carl Valle" date="1341211100"][quote author="star61" date="1341203329"][quote author="Carl Valle" date="1341025597"][quote author="star61" date="1341025156"]I’m not sure what to think of the “over thinking it” comments. I don’t see how having a couple of squat variations is over thinking it. Are sleds over thinking it? Dumb over thinking Jamaicans. Are plyometrics over thinking it? Dumb, over thinking just about everyone.
Perhaps we should narrow it down for a moment and look at the literature. There are many articles comparing squats and sprinting only to squats and plyos and sprinting, explosive squats and sprinting, explosive squats and plyos and sprinting etc. etc. Anecdotal experiences are one thing, but if we want to have a real discussion, let’s collect all the pertinent articles and discuss the results.
Star61,
With all of your options in your situation, what is the impact of the methodology you are having with quarter squats and specific improvements in sprinting? Since squats are more early block clearance and not max speed, what are the results with quarter squats? Where is that impacting the race? Some seem the partial range is mimicking joint angles, some like it for a general neuronal overflow, some like it because of soreness. What is the mechanism?[/quote]First, I don’t like the term quarter squat, because it implies that you’re going half way to parallel. One way we employ a partial squat would be best described as a high box squat, short of parallel. It is simply a max strength variation that is easier on the athlete. Look a videos of Ben Johnson squatting heavy, and this is basically the type of squat I’m referring to there.
Another type of partial we do, which the one I think you’re asking me about, is similar to a jump squat. I don’t use the terms jump squat or squat jump because I don’t like my athlete’s feet leaving the ground for safety reasons, but the exercise looks like a jump squat that is overloaded to the point that the athlete comes up just short of leaving the ground. Each lifter descends to a comfortable depth and explodes up. Just as some descend deeper when doing a box jump, some descend lower than others when doing a partial explosive squat. Like all resistance work in the gym, the impact is in the general improvement of strength and RFD. In my mind, partial explosive squats fill the same roll that cleans do, at least as far as the posterior chain goes.
As far as what stage of the race it impacts, I would first say there is a lot of racing done between clearing the blocks and reaching Max V. This thread splintered off the acceleration thread, and there is abundant scientific data, and plenty of experiential data, to confirm the fact the explosive squats and/or olympic lifts can make a positive contribution to acceleration and show benefits out to 30m and beyond. A lot of races are won between 30m and 60m, and as our discussions have touched on in recent threads, acceleration is the process that ultimately controls Max V.
I’m not concerned about mimicking angles or pigeon holing an exercise into a theory of why it works. I’m much more a quantitative, empirical approach type of person and the empirical data from numerous studies indicates explosive partial squats have a positive impact on acceleration.[/quote]
What research shows that squats/cleans help beyond 30m? As for RFD and explosive lifts, I think it would be good to show a video so we can see a better idea of what is going on.[/quote]There is very, very little research that shows ANYTHING works from 30m on. I’m not talking about speed endurance here, just acceleration and Max V. But I don’t limit myself to tools and methods that only improve Max V. As far as a video, there is no human on this website or any other that can analyze an exercise and know empirically that it will or will not contribute to improvements in Max V. If you have an exercise or any other tool, other than sprinting, that has been documented to improve sprint performance after 30m, please share it with the group.[/quote]
I don’t but I am not claiming anything is going on during extended acceleration.
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Participant
[quote author="star61" date="1341258474"][quote author="Carl Valle" date="1341211100"][quote author="star61" date="1341203329"][quote author="Carl Valle" date="1341025597"][quote author="star61" date="1341025156"]I’m not sure what to think of the “over thinking it” comments. I don’t see how having a couple of squat variations is over thinking it. Are sleds over thinking it? Dumb over thinking Jamaicans. Are plyometrics over thinking it? Dumb, over thinking just about everyone.
Perhaps we should narrow it down for a moment and look at the literature. There are many articles comparing squats and sprinting only to squats and plyos and sprinting, explosive squats and sprinting, explosive squats and plyos and sprinting etc. etc. Anecdotal experiences are one thing, but if we want to have a real discussion, let’s collect all the pertinent articles and discuss the results.
Star61,
With all of your options in your situation, what is the impact of the methodology you are having with quarter squats and specific improvements in sprinting? Since squats are more early block clearance and not max speed, what are the results with quarter squats? Where is that impacting the race? Some seem the partial range is mimicking joint angles, some like it for a general neuronal overflow, some like it because of soreness. What is the mechanism?[/quote]First, I don’t like the term quarter squat, because it implies that you’re going half way to parallel. One way we employ a partial squat would be best described as a high box squat, short of parallel. It is simply a max strength variation that is easier on the athlete. Look a videos of Ben Johnson squatting heavy, and this is basically the type of squat I’m referring to there.
Another type of partial we do, which the one I think you’re asking me about, is similar to a jump squat. I don’t use the terms jump squat or squat jump because I don’t like my athlete’s feet leaving the ground for safety reasons, but the exercise looks like a jump squat that is overloaded to the point that the athlete comes up just short of leaving the ground. Each lifter descends to a comfortable depth and explodes up. Just as some descend deeper when doing a box jump, some descend lower than others when doing a partial explosive squat. Like all resistance work in the gym, the impact is in the general improvement of strength and RFD. In my mind, partial explosive squats fill the same roll that cleans do, at least as far as the posterior chain goes.
As far as what stage of the race it impacts, I would first say there is a lot of racing done between clearing the blocks and reaching Max V. This thread splintered off the acceleration thread, and there is abundant scientific data, and plenty of experiential data, to confirm the fact the explosive squats and/or olympic lifts can make a positive contribution to acceleration and show benefits out to 30m and beyond. A lot of races are won between 30m and 60m, and as our discussions have touched on in recent threads, acceleration is the process that ultimately controls Max V.
I’m not concerned about mimicking angles or pigeon holing an exercise into a theory of why it works. I’m much more a quantitative, empirical approach type of person and the empirical data from numerous studies indicates explosive partial squats have a positive impact on acceleration.[/quote]
What research shows that squats/cleans help beyond 30m? As for RFD and explosive lifts, I think it would be good to show a video so we can see a better idea of what is going on.[/quote]There is very, very little research that shows ANYTHING works from 30m on. I’m not talking about speed endurance here, just acceleration and Max V. But I don’t limit myself to tools and methods that only improve Max V. As far as a video, there is no human on this website or any other that can analyze an exercise and know empirically that it will or will not contribute to improvements in Max V. If you have an exercise or any other tool, other than sprinting, that has been documented to improve sprint performance after 30m, please share it with the group.[/quote]
I don’t but I am not claiming anything is going on during extended acceleration.[/quote]Nor am I, really, but I do feel that improving 0-30m, if anything, will improve 30-40m, and so on and so forth. I’m not claiming their is data to show that anything improves late acceleration or improves Max v, I have always, in several threads extending literally years back, held the position that there is little to no evidence that actually shows a direct correlation between a specific training means and late acceleration. But again, my comments are not limited to late acceleration or Max V. That’s not what this thresd is about. Its about using partial squats in some aspect of training. Having said all that, I recall a Charlie Francis comment that, greatly paraphrased from memory, was something like, “making an improvement on any point of the force-time curve has positive benefits at many other points along the curve.”
Can I prove that means that result in improvements in the first 30-40m of a sprint will have positive returns by the time you reach 100m? No. But I think an improvement in your 30-40m time is much more likely to result in an improvement in 100m times, than it is for an improvement in your 30-40m time to lead to a decrease in your 100m performance. Again, I have no data to back that up other than the fact that those with the best 100m times usually are among the best at 30-40m. I know he converse is not always true, but there is certainly no correlation that says the fastest 100m sprinters are always the last to 30m. I know that isn’t true.
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Participant
Oh so the clean is all concentric then. No importance the eccentric part. Why do you catch the bar at all if its all about the pull?
Or you were talking about fiber recruitment with deep squats so why not pull high and catch low? Surely that’s the ultimate exercise no?
So basically do a power clean then go into a full squat. For me the squat would be too light to be useful, for others…maybe ok but for most, clean and squat is their bread and butter in the gym and will be better quality done seperate. The ultimate exercise…. lets not make this crossfit.
Power cleans and full squats. They are 2 completely different tools. Its like comparing SLJ to sprints.
The eccentric part of the clean is usefull, but not needed if you squat controlled. I catch it because of my ego
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Participant
For Joe…
You obviously have great technique in the Olympic lifts. But, if you developed an injury (shoulder etc.) that made it impossible to pull (no cleans, no jerks, no high pulls) or throw a medicine ball, what resisted exercise would you choose to hit that part of the curve and as a replacement for the Olympic lifts? Would you then even consider explosive squats or weighted jumps of any kind?
Thanks,
You havent seen my videos then…I shift big weight but its not pretty. I tore my pec a few years back at xmas time so couldnt clean until april.
I was happy as long as i could squat big, sprint 90% witrh 1 arm and do sleds. I Jumped a pb in April or May
My knee tendons wouldnt like explosive squats or weighted plyo. But if i could i would do them. I dont like to do too many things around the same part of the curve.
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Participant
Where do you get your strength and conditioning knowledge from? Who in particular do you admire?
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Participant
Where do you get your strength and conditioning knowledge from? Who in particular do you admire?
No one. Like you it’s been general research/trial and error for a long time. As you know i’ve had an ankle injury ever since i started jumping, so distance relies on my strength and conditioning.
I’m almost ready to have double ankle surgery, afterwards i’ll be working with a coach, so things will change. I’ll keep up my strength and power stuff though
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Participant
Like me? Again…that’s not right. Not like me at all.
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Participant
Like me? Again…that’s not right. Not like me at all.
Again i’m not right? I didn’t realise you had disproven me so far, infact you wanted to end this early on but then i had some support. And the comments you come back with aren’t very good or are just dismissive.
Ive read your journal over the years. You change things each year…trial and error. You studied this sport, you are self coached. Similarites right there.
The way you are on here, you see yourself as better than everyone else, your knowledge is absolute. Where are the results to show it? Until then, you cant dismiss me so easily.
And there i was trying to help someone with something that actually works.
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Participant
I said you were wrong about me Joe…
Go back and read the posts YOU’VE written over the past couple of years and stop being a hypocrite.
What works? The training that you’ve done has worked? Where are my results? Well i’ve improved ever year so far but injuries can’t always be helped.
To say I think my knowledge is absolute is incredible. ANYONE who actually knows me knows that is so far from the truth. Come on Joe, YOU are the most combative person on here.
Ugh!
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Participant
I dont need to waste my time reading into the past. You call me a hyocrite but back it up with nothing.
“What works?”
The way i make the strength and power phase of a long jumpers training very simple, yet effective.Injuries cant be helped no, but i’ve done pb’s with minimal training, barely able to sprint and just doing 1 jump, because i know how to train the basic power qualities needed to jump. Reading your journal, at the times of your injuries you are still able to do everything in training (plyo, speed, lj). You’ve even said youve been ready for over 8m this year with your 2nd foot landing, injury can’t be that bad. So is it the program?
I am combative as you say, i admit it. You like to argue but for some reason you don’t see it. You even tried to argue with Fabrice Lapierre on his youtube, because you could read some data.
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Participant
Back on topic. Matt, few of us agree here, full squats are superior. Keep everything simple otherwise you’ll do your head in for no reason.
Unnecessary things that Nick and other people would think about.
Cleans – should i catch? how should i catch? should i do hang? Does 50%,70%,80%,90% = best power?
Squats – should i do ecentric? isometric? half? full? quarter? front? single legged, jump? -
Participant
Back on topic. Matt, few of us agree here, full squats are superior. Keep everything simple otherwise you’ll do your head in for no reason.
Unnecessary things that Nick and other people would think about.
Cleans – should i catch? how should i catch? should i do hang? Does 50%,70%,80%,90% = best power?
Squats – should i do ecentric? isometric? half? full? quarter? front? single legged, jump?I love it…..
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Participant
The art of keeping things simple is very difficult……but making it complex for brain candy purposes is foolish. Make decisions based on impact, not coolness. I agree with Joe as things will get naturally complex with real life, just use complexity of the brain to solve complex problems with simple solutions.
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Participant
What would you think about a program without full squat? Only partials, never go lower than you do while sprinting/jumping.
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Participant
Great topic (or at least one that interests me a lot).
As has been alluded to in this thread already far as partial squats go, there are [at least] 2 very different types.
First, is the type with supramaximal loads (relative to full squats); the other, less common, is a more explosive method with same as [or even much less weight] as a fuller squat, resulting in a quasi-jump squat.
When I gave up track at the end of my high school years to focus on football, and also began to play a lot of basketball & volleyball, I began doing a lot of very heavy partials (>2x the weight I had ever used for regular squats) as an ego / posturing competition thing that was part of a game some of the much bigger linemen were doing in our football team. We also often had informal 100 yard races piggyback-carrying 300lb linemen, which seemed to similarly tax the musculature in the same limited range of motion as the partial squat. (In hindsight, that was just begging for a Franco Columbo style injury for a 175 pound DB.) I made the most impressive gains in my athletic life during this brief 4-5 month period. (Granted, I was 18-19 too, so my potential for gain from ANY exercise was at it’s greatest, so “spurious conclusion alert” noted.)
Granted, this is anecdotdal (be very wary of correlations using a 1-subject repeated measure with no controls!) but in those few months my 100m dropped from 10.8 to 10.55 and my VL went from 31ish to 38. Not to say decisively that it’s all from the partial squats (or the 300lb piggyback sprints), but there’s a certain face validity to the presumed specificity of angle of contraction that was worked. Anyway, that’s just a ‘FWIW’ because that’s no substitute for real research, but I am intrigued by more study into the possibility of it.
Now that I’m nearly 50, and having almost lost my running career entirely to a badly mangled knee meniscus 8 years ago, I find that ATG are not something my knees care to do with a lot of weight anymore. I still do some ATG with lighter weights (generally 150 lbs or less) but usually only working it in as part of a front squat / composite. I ‘cheat’ more and more with range of motion, simply because I prefer to be able to have another hard sprint workout within a couple of days, rather than wait a week for the knee pain to subside. A heavier partial squat gives me the ability to return to exercise much more quickly than a full heavy squat does.
BTW, I am a big fan of the reverse pyramid approach someone else posted on here already: starting (after a warmup) with a normal heavy full squat, then adding weight while decreasing range of motion for subsequent sets. The post-workout feeling of “trashed legs” from just 4 brief sets (especially after a sprint workout) is very intense. That superset of Full -> 3/4 -> 1/2 -> 1/4 produces that same “OMG, wow!” feeling you get from doing bodybuilder style dropsets, extending a set way beyond failure/sticking by dropping the weight and continuing.
Now, does it help performance — or just make me feel drained the rest of the day? I don’t know. I would like to see more research on it all. I really enjoy seeing the contributions / perspectives from all of you on this.
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Participant
this is the problem with specificity…. i think that if you look to make all aspects of training completely specific then you would end up cutting most things out. logically quarter squats are more specific than full squats. but… I think that if you have a bigger full squat then someone else then you’re almost certain to have a bigger quarter squat than them. therefore improving full squat ability is gonna improve quarter squat ability which will improve jumping performance. im already experimenting with full squats anyway so will see how it goes!
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Participant
Maurice Greene and squats: https://msn.foxsports.com/video/shows/athlete-village-hub?vid=e683a84b-9795-4006-aff5-7f525651d1e2
He has some weird opinion on how to do squats.. what do you think? -
Participant
If i could only do one strength exercise a week it would be full squats, we are not just talking about muscular benefits but also the CNS, also the extra challenge of balance and the control of eccentric force.
Just too much bang for your buck to be missing out on.
If i want to increase the velocity i just lower the load but keep the squat deep (past 90)
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Participant
If i could only do one strength exercise a week it would be full squats, we are not just talking about muscular benefits but also the CNS, also the extra challenge of balance and the control of eccentric force.
Just too much bang for your buck to be missing out on.
If i want to increase the velocity i just lower the load but keep the squat deep (past 90)
Agree 100% right up to the last sentence. Explosive squats are usually meant to be more specific, akin to jump squats, and there is no need to drop that low with light weight. No real benefit that is realized beyond quarter or partial explosive squats, IMHO.
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Participant
The main benefit of the full squat is the ability to produce maximum force through floor,and engaging the maximum amount of muscle through its full range of motion. Plus i think that when it comes to sprint acceleration the movement angles are more specific to the full squat. Also Some serious core activation at the bottom of the squat helping your force transfer.
like other people have said sometimes specificity can over complicate things. Most of the time i boil things down to putting force through the floor.
But i do like your point, you need to fill those gaps on the force velocity curve.
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