There is a lot of literature on various forms of recovery, and a great number of different modalities that can be used to recover. Perhaps most well known are the dreaded ice-baths, where athletes submerge themselves in very cold water (usually about 5 degrees Celsius) for a certain time period, in order to dampen inflammation post-training. Then there are also the new compression garments, which
Recovery – Too much of a good thing?
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Participant
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Participant
Craig, you pose an interesting question about recovery being too much of a good thing. We know there is research that shows that you have losses in strength gains after just a few short days on non activity and weeks off during a peak season can be detrimental.
I was recently having a discussion with a friend who works more jobs than I do and is training to return to pro football. I was explaining to him while I am am learning how to maximize recovery through nutrition the best way I recover is mentally. Unfortunately due to my schedule there have been days where I haven’t slept or slept only a few hours and still had to train. Of course this is not optimal, and during these when there is no time for sleep, ice baths, massages, etc I turn to the power of my mind.
When I’m feeling drained I know that I can always take 5 minutes out of my day, or before bed, or upon waking to sit and meditate. I usually picture myself in a dark room with no windows, no walls, no doors, no floor…when I’m not here I’m on the track in a large empty stadium on a clear day sitting on the in field. And I let my thoughts drift away and think only of the muscles that hurt. As I inhale I grab hold of the pain and exhale it out. I know once I learn how to combine this with nutrition and other modes of recovery I’ll have a winning combination.
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Participant
Thats interesting. Its funny because we are both on opposite ends of the spectrum. I dont have to have a full time job (for now) and I get regular massage and physio to aid recovery, and as I am not working I have the whole day to recover after training and just relax. However, because you are working, you have to focus even harder on specific recovery modalities because time is so sparse for you.
I too am a big believer in the power of the mind!
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Participant
Hi Craig,
I think in many cases athletes involved in high intensity sports need longer time to recover from CNS fatique vs. local muscular fatique. Massage, ice bath are great options for local muscular recovery but does it help to recover faster from CNS fatique wich is really complex thing?
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Participant
Craig,
I am looking forward to reading your blog – great first post.
Carl V. had previously hit on this issue as well (blunting the adaptation response): https://elitetrack.com/blogs-details-5168/
@Linas – There are several studies showing that heart rate variability (HRV) parameters can be somewhat reset via cold-water immersion (and thus helping with CNS fatigue issues); however this might be problematic if it is causing you to not reap the benefits of adaptation. There is one study I would like to reread(Influence of cold water face immersion on post-exercise parasympathetic reactivation – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19882167). This may have some CNS benefit without the down side mentioned in this post.…Tim
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Participant
Craig I remember you posting something about a year ago regarding post training nutrition, i think it was also a piece on the ucoach site it was along the lines of blunting adaptation.
I wouldnt count massage as something that would blunt adaptation though.
Though if were talking along the lines of recovery either by nutrition or other modalities blunting adaptation and being negative, how would you clasify the use of drugs?!? its stated that the use of drugs aid recovery to a point that the sessions can be of a harder nature and able to do so more often as ‘proven’ by many such as Ben Johnson et al.
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Participant
Only specific recovery nutrition aspects are negative. For example, eating after exercise to refuel glycogen stores probably isnt negative, and is more likely to be positive. Possible negative recovery nutrition examples would be taking 1000mg of vitamin C straight after training. So with nutrition, its about keeping the good and getting rid of the bad.
With drugs, lets pick steroids. I dont really know how they work, but if I had to guess I would assume that they increased muscle protein synthesis somewhat. This is EXACTLY what we want post-exercise, as it is “good” recovery. Steroids arent packed full of antioxidants, and dont cool the body like an ice bath.
My main point of my blog post (which may not have come across) is that you can take part in too much recovery methods, eventually blunting the adaptation response to training. Simple things like massage/physio and basic post-exercise nutrition are not going to blunt the effect of training compared to what I mentioned above. In addition to this, nothing is black and white. I ran 10.22 as a junior and had cold baths after EVERY running session I did!
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Participant
Linas – I agree with you, CNS regeneration is imperative, especially in the competition season. I would certainly utilise ice baths much more in the competition period to ensure adequate recovery.
Tim – do you have any experience with using HRV to measure recovery? I have very limited knowledge in this area, but from what I think I know it is quite expensive to measure?
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Participant
Tim – do you have any experience with using HRV to measure recovery? I have very limited knowledge in this area, but from what I think I know it is quite expensive to measure?
Craig,
My introduction to HRV started with an interest in looking at measures of overall risk of cardiovascular disease (better than Cholesterol numbers) as my Dad had a mild heart attack last spring. My intent was to measure my HRV parameters daily and see how they adapted (and hopefully improved) as a result of a more intense exercise program (going from mostly sedentary to CrossFit). More recently I have also been looking carefully at the daily numbers to see how well I am recovering from a bout of exercise.
My method for measuring is to use a Suunto T6d heart rate monitor/watch (I purchased it on Amazon for about $220 US). There is also a version of a Polar hrm watch that will allow you capture the interbeat r-r data needed to do analysis. In addition, I had to buy a software package from Firstbeat (called Firstbeat Athlete – about $80 I think) to pull the raw data from my watch. In hindsight, I should have purchased the Polar as this feature is built in. Finally, I downloaded a program from Kubios (freeware) that reads in the raw data and gives me very detailed charts and statistical HRV info.
Every morning, I take a 5 minute reading in a seated position and I then look at a 3 minute window within that 5 minute period. Specifically I am looking at the RMSSD parameter which provides an EXCELLENT view of parasympathetic tone within this short measurement.
What have I learned? (and remember I am in no way a well-trained/conditioned athlete)
– Looking at one individuals HRV numbers and comparing them to a population of people will probably not give you much insight about training/recovery (it may suggest an overall level of conditioning)
– Establishing a baseline set of numbers for each person (maybe over a month or so) and using that data to decide if one is overtrained (in need of recovery) seems to be quite doable.
– My personal experience is that on the morning immediately after a hard CrossFit workout, I may see as much as a 50% reduction in RMSSD, and only after 48 hours do I see levels come back to baseline. When I have had 3 days of rest, I have seen even more of a bounce. Also, SLEEP seems to be a big factor in the bounce of HRV numbers (i.e. if I don’t get good sleep on a recovery day/night, I don’t see the bounce).
– Resting heart rate seems to be highly correlated to the status of my HRV levels (on days when HRV is very low, I am seeing an average resting heart rate that is about 6-8 beats per minute higher than baseline).…Tim
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Participant
We know there is research that shows that you have losses in strength gains after just a few short days on non activity and weeks off during a peak season can be detrimental.
This is certainly the case with core work. I lose a lot of leg speed/power if I’m not keeping on top of it 4-5x per week. Hence it’s vital all year round for me.
Bruce Lee was correct in that regard.
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Participant
Ice baths?.
Take the top 10 sprinters on the planet right now.
Who takes them?. Links?.
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ParticipantCraig,
I am looking forward to reading your blog – great first post.
Carl V. had previously hit on this issue as well (blunting the adaptation response): https://elitetrack.com/blogs-details-5168/
@Linas – There are several studies showing that heart rate variability (HRV) parameters can be somewhat reset via cold-water immersion (and thus helping with CNS fatigue issues); however this might be problematic if it is causing you to not reap the benefits of adaptation. There is one study I would like to reread(Influence of cold water face immersion on post-exercise parasympathetic reactivation – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19882167). This may have some CNS benefit without the down side mentioned in this post.…Tim
Regarding HRV….make sure you do a morning wake test and track throughout the year and look for increases from phase to phase and perhaps over one’s career. The cold immersion doesn’t last very long because it’s a short response. From a practical point it’s good after SPP and once a week during comp. I have seen no post training data so far.
Static stretching and saunas work but the cryosauna research is minimal so no magic coming from it. Could you imagine an accident with a loose hose or similar? Could resemble the T-1000 from Terminator 2!
I personally have not seen anything beyond a minute sample form ithlete to be an investment. Anything beyond that is not proven by any means to be supported by the current research. Getting HRV scores in the morning or before training is great, but analyzing more is panning for gold. You might find something but it’s a pebble at best.
Nobody likes to do the boring and tedious so rotating flexibility training is important because coaches get bored as well.
Ice is great for trauma and forced overload (like post competition after PRs or near PRs) I do them 3-6 times a year max. Ice may decrease pain but the research shows that doing them can slow down myofibril repair.
Carl
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Participant
Ice baths?.
Take the top 10 sprinters on the planet right now.
Who takes them?. Links?.
The majority of top 10 sprinters all take “other” things for recovery.
Probably look at the guys and girls who do not have the $ to afford the other things or avoid getting caught with the other things, like jumpers or multis. Maybe they take something in the off season but if they are from USA, Canada, Europe I don’t see how they can, 1. afford the pharmaceuticals or 2. afford the docs to help them avoid detection.
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Participant
Any downside to protein/carb shakes immediately after exercise or ZMA for recovery?
No, they are fine!
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Participant
Thanks Tim and Carl for your comments re:HRV
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Participant
Linas – I agree with you, CNS regeneration is imperative, especially in the competition season. I would certainly utilise ice baths much more in the competition period to ensure adequate recovery.
If I understood right, when you trained with Arnold, your usual preseason weekely training schedule was like sprints – weights – sprints – weights – sprints – weights – rest. For sure there were variety on intensity and volume, but more or less these sessions were affecting CNS. However, you had great results on that weekely schedule (maybe many would think you could have even better or more consistent results) and I’m thinking how you was able to recover from CNS fatique. Do elite sprinters use simmilar schedule these days when there are many high intensity days in a row affecting CNS? I’m sure that rate of recovery is individual thing. As Charlie Francis said, that Ben Jonhson could recover faster than Angella. According to him Angella didn’t have great season in 1987 due to not enough recovery between high intensity days.
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Participant
As Charlie Francis said, that Ben Jonhson could recover faster than Angella.
I bet he could.
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Participant
[quote author="Linas" date="1304375395"]As Charlie Francis said, that Ben Jonhson could recover faster than Angella.
I bet he could.[/quote]
Both used steroids so rules were equal. Recovery rate is individual thing. Good coach should monitor those thigs, not like doing same weekely schedule for all group of athletes.
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Participant
Craig,
Great questions. This is a very valid discussion. I recently read a research article that showed post-workout ice baths actually decrease testosterone production in the body. This obviously would be detrimental to the adaptation and strength building for the athlete. I I agree with your theory of decreasing ice baths early in the season. I will have to search for that article and post it.
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Participant
Not recovery.
Athletic development over-complication in general IMO.
The Jamaicans?. No complication.
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Participant
[quote author="JC Cooper" date="1304368082"]Ice baths?.
Take the top 10 sprinters on the planet right now.
Who takes them?. Links?.
The majority of top 10 sprinters all take “other” things for recovery.
Probably look at the guys and girls who do not have the $ to afford the other things or avoid getting caught with the other things, like jumpers or multis. Maybe they take something in the off season but if they are from USA, Canada, Europe I don’t see how they can, 1. afford the pharmaceuticals or 2. afford the docs to help them avoid detection.[/quote]
Don’t mean to hijack and make this a conversation about drugs… Actually, I do – as when thinking about activities that drive recovery – drug use is certainly pertinent.
Brooke – re: detection – I agree it is a challenge that would face US elites who are using PED’s – but most below the top couple in their respective events are not tested with much regularity outside of competition.
Re: Affordability of docs and pharmaceutical aid. Any decent healthcare plan provides (somewhat) affordable access to physicians. Buying PED’s is cheap enough to border on ridiculous. Is hardly any more expensive than buying Multi-V’s, Creatine, Beta-Alanine, and Fish Oils.
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Participant
[quote author="Brooke Burkhalter" date="1304369647"][quote author="JC Cooper" date="1304368082"]Ice baths?.
Take the top 10 sprinters on the planet right now.
Who takes them?. Links?.
The majority of top 10 sprinters all take “other” things for recovery.
Probably look at the guys and girls who do not have the $ to afford the other things or avoid getting caught with the other things, like jumpers or multis. Maybe they take something in the off season but if they are from USA, Canada, Europe I don’t see how they can, 1. afford the pharmaceuticals or 2. afford the docs to help them avoid detection.[/quote]
Don’t mean to hijack and make this a conversation about drugs… Actually, I do – as when thinking about activities that drive recovery – drug use is certainly pertinent.
Brooke – re: detection – I agree it is a challenge that would face US elites who are using PED’s – but most below the top couple in their respective events are not tested with much regularity outside of competition.
Re: Affordability of docs and pharmaceutical aid. Any decent healthcare plan provides (somewhat) affordable access to physicians. Buying PED’s is cheap enough to border on ridiculous. Is hardly any more expensive than buying Multi-V’s, Creatine, Beta-Alanine, and Fish Oils.[/quote]
I honestly do not know how often US athletes are tested. I was basing it off of Mo Greene’s bank account which showed $30,000 or so for PED’s. I have never priced them other than looking at how much HGH cost, and it is a lot.
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Participant
I think its more relevant to have a good understanding of niggles and injuries in general
I think all the recovery modalities were all familier with are useful and should be used as often as possible but should be adapted around injury possibility.
Craig question regarding your junior years and use of ice baths, what was your injury record?!?
Point being if you survived injury free mostly, then any immediate possible blunting is off set by the long term athlete development! thoughts
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I did survive mostly injury free, but conversely I also survived injury free without them. But that is a very good point!
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I honestly do not know how often US athletes are tested. I was basing it off of [b]Mo Greene’s bank account which showed $30,000 or so for PED’s.[/b] I have never priced them other than looking at how much HGH cost, and it is a lot.
Maurice Greene says he’s clean (of the banned stuff) but forgets to mention he spends $30,000 or so for PED’s.
It’s an absolute joke.
Not impressed.
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Participant
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Participant
[quote author="Brooke Burkhalter" date="1304553204"]I honestly do not know how often US athletes are tested. I was basing it off of [b]Mo Greene’s bank account which showed $30,000 or so for PED’s.[/b] I have never priced them other than looking at how much HGH cost, and it is a lot.
Maurice Greene says he’s clean (of the banned stuff) but forgets to mention he spends $30,000 or so for PED’s.
It’s an absolute joke.
Not impressed.[/quote]
Not impressed with what, the documents showing where he wrote Heredia checks or the fact that Mo is a liar?
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