Posted In: Strength & Conditioning
Hi,
Would there be any benefits with running(not sprinting) while holding dumbbells? Athletes several years ago seem to do this?
Will it improve strength and endurance specific to running in the shoulders/forearms or be a good mean of adding intensity? Or is it completely a waste of time and there are more efficient ways of adding intensity to running?
lame
Hi,
Would there be any benefits with running(not sprinting) while holding dumbbells? Athletes several years ago seem to do this?
Will it improve strength and endurance specific to running in the shoulders/forearms or be a good mean of adding intensity? Or is it completely a waste of time and there are more efficient ways of adding intensity to running?
How about dumbell butt-bounces? Sit on a bench, or on the floor, and swing your arms as if sprinting. We do this every workout, 4 sets of 60 seconds…the weight varies. We usually do heavier dumbells on ME days, medium dumbells on RE days, and very light or no dumbells on DE days. Not for any specific reason other than just to mix things up.
My daughter used to complain about her arms and shoulders during and after a hard workout, such as a 6 x 200m at race pace with 2 minutes rest. I would get on her about her form, and she would complain about her arms/shoulders being tired, burning or later, being sore. After regularly doing the dumbell butt bounces for a few months, she has no issues with shoulders or arms during her workouts.
[quote author="klp2332" date="1192538622"]
Hi,Would there be any benefits with running(not sprinting) while holding dumbbells? Athletes several years ago seem to do this?
Will it improve strength and endurance specific to running in the shoulders/forearms or be a good mean of adding intensity? Or is it completely a waste of time and there are more efficient ways of adding intensity to running?
How about dumbell butt-bounces? Sit on a bench, or on the floor, and swing your arms as if sprinting. We do this every workout, 4 sets of 60 seconds…the weight varies. We usually do heavier dumbells on ME days, medium dumbells on RE days, and very light or no dumbells on DE days. Not for any specific reason other than just to mix things up.
My daughter used to complain about her arms and shoulders during and after a hard workout, such as a 6 x 200m at race pace with 2 minutes rest. I would get on her about her form, and she would complain about her arms/shoulders being tired, burning or later, being sore. After regularly doing the dumbell butt bounces for a few months, she has no issues with shoulders or arms during her workouts.
[/quote]
whats the point of going for 60sec?
lame
If it is possible to have a completely thorough and in-depth answer to the question at hand stated in one word this would likely be it.
ELITETRACK Founder
I could rationalize doing standing arm swings with a light weight but I'd never run with hand or ankle weights. Adding a load to the most distal point of a swinging segment will completely change its inertial properties and shift the focus from the musculature that would normally do most of the work to the more distal musculature. Also, you'll greatly increase impact forces at ground contact. This isn't necessarily bad but there are better ways to do it.
ELITETRACK Founder
I could rationalize doing standing arm swings with a light weight but I'd never run with hand or ankle weights. Adding a load to the most distal point of a swinging segment will completely change its inertial properties and shift the focus from the musculature that would normally do most of the work to the more distal musculature. Also, you'll greatly increase impact forces at ground contact. This isn't necessarily bad but there are better ways to do it.
i dont understand why 60sec?
I wouldn't personally use the exercise (although I could rationalize using it) and I wouldn't do it for 60 seconds. You'll have to ask star61 for that one.
ELITETRACK Founder
thanks,
I just wanted to see if it would be ideal for adding itensity to say a run of 6k. Never meant it to replace specific resistance training in the gym.
From the answers I got, seems like the question was stupid and akward. But people were doing this not a long time ago. Anyways Mike confirmed what I thought.
I could rationalize doing standing arm swings with a light weight but I'd never run with hand or ankle weights. Adding a load to the most distal point of a swinging segment will completely change its inertial properties and shift the focus from the musculature that would normally do most of the work to the more distal musculature. Also, you'll greatly increase impact forces at ground contact. This isn't necessarily bad but there are better ways to do it.
mike what about doing this type of exercise for a warmup only, with light dumbells (2.5/5lbs) for only 5-10 secs for 2 sets?
[quote author="Mike Young" date="1192597962"]
I could rationalize doing standing arm swings with a light weight but I'd never run with hand or ankle weights. Adding a load to the most distal point of a swinging segment will completely change its inertial properties and shift the focus from the musculature that would normally do most of the work to the more distal musculature. Also, you'll greatly increase impact forces at ground contact. This isn't necessarily bad but there are better ways to do it.
mike what about doing this type of exercise for a warmup only, with light dumbells (2.5/5lbs) for only 5-10 secs for 2 sets?
[/quote]
NO.
[quote author="Mike Young" date="1192597962"]
I could rationalize doing standing arm swings with a light weight but I'd never run with hand or ankle weights. Adding a load to the most distal point of a swinging segment will completely change its inertial properties and shift the focus from the musculature that would normally do most of the work to the more distal musculature. Also, you'll greatly increase impact forces at ground contact. This isn't necessarily bad but there are better ways to do it.
mike what about doing this type of exercise for a warmup only, with light dumbells (2.5/5lbs) for only 5-10 secs for 2 sets?
[/quote]
I have seen it done with some success this way, I prefer doing something like this in a pool, but stick with the lighter weight if you don't have access.
[quote author="senri" date="1192646669"]
mike what about doing this type of exercise for a warmup only, with light dumbells (2.5/5lbs) for only 5-10 secs for 2 sets?
NO.
[/quote]You might have just beaten Carl for having a completely thorough and in-depth answer to a question with as little letters as possible.
Senri-
You can do it, but why? What is it going to improve? What would the purpose be? In your example your using a low load and a short time interval….you'll get practically nothing from it. I don't really think there's any need to do weighted arm swings. While I think the arm swing plays an important role in sprinting, it is not a limiting factor for speed. Stick with the bigger, multi-joint lifts and you'll be plenty strong enough to run.
ELITETRACK Founder
What is everyone's opinion on doing the arm swing motion from a seated, standing, and running in place position while going through a progression of a jog, stride, sprint arm drive? The purpose of this would be to create efficiency in the arm drive and develop good mechanics. 15 seconds of each progression jog, stride, would be done with 2 sets at in each position, sitting, standing, and jogging in place. This would be done after the warm up before before any running.
I have a girl whose HS team did weighted arm swings (in the weight room) and she swears it helped their arms from getting tired in the 400m. This is coming from a pretty good (3:53) girls HS 4×4 team. A little 3:53…maybe a little placebo…hey, it works! :police:
I don't know if they still do it but the old Mel Rosen teams at Auburn used to do weighted arm swings. They also used leg extensions and leg curls as their primary lower body lifts. This was a loooong time ago though. I don't think it's going to hurt anything, I just think it's not really going to be a very effective means of developing strength.
ELITETRACK Founder
whats the point of going for 60sec?
Good question. She runs the 400…that's the race her arms/shoulders fatigue. The 60 seconds is a few seconds longer than her race, so there's a psychological benefit as well. If she can swing dumbells hard for 60 seconds, she can swing her arms hard for that or a little less.
I originally got this exercise from a Tom Green (Olympic sprinter) article. He calls them 'butt bounces' because he does them so vigorously his butt liteally bounces on the floor. I have heard, as Mortac8 mentioned, younger female 400 sprinters complaining of arm fatigue. This exercise seems to help.
As I mentioned, these are done with light or no weight…10lbs. (slowly and under control) on ME days, 5lbs. (quickly but smoothly) on RE days, and no weight (hard and fast, butt bouncing) on DE days. It has seemed to get rid of any arm fatigue, at least in my daughter.
i think Tom Green just qualified for the olympic trials.
another question Mike, would using a weighted backpack or weighted vest be ideal to adding intensity to a slow run of 20 min
I'm certainly not Mike, but I'd like to try and offer my perspective for you.
My opinion is that neither the backpack or vest would be ideal in any way. If your goal is to add intensity to a "slow run of 20 minutes" why not run it faster. Perhaps if faster is not the goal, extend the distance to increase the stress.
Why are you using slow 20 minute runs to begin with? Typically the use of slow running of short duration would have a goal of enhancing recovery and increasing the intensity of the session would be counterproductive towards that goal. I also see it possibly causing bigger issues in the long term as your ground contact would be much greater. The use of additional load in the form of a backpack also can lead to bigger problems in the future as well; particularly in the spine, shoulders and abdominal musculature.
-CB
Tom Green is an olympic sprinter?
Sorry…potential Olympic sprinter who was living/training at the U.S. Olympic Training Center in San Diego when he wrote the article I read. I don't believe he has ever actually made the Olympic team, although 10.1 is pretty quick.
I don't know if they still do it but the old Mel Rosen teams at Auburn used to do weighted arm swings. They also used leg extensions and leg curls as their primary lower body lifts. This was a loooong time ago though. I don't think it's going to hurt anything, I just think it's not really going to be a very effective means of developing strength.
– Here's one of passages I read that gave me the idea. In this version, he's doing them standing.
"The first thing you'll be doing is standing in place running arm swings. Sound simple enough? I thought so! You will be performing these with dumbbells, anywhere from 5lbs to 25lbs depending on gender and strength… DON'T cheat yourself. I use 20lbs and it's not easy! I do this 10 times, 60 seconds on with 60 seconds off. The first 40-45 seconds is at a brisk pace, the last 15-20 seconds is all out sprinting of the arms. Be sure to pump your arms without recruiting all of your major muscles, try staying up tall using good technique. Make sure you get FULL range of motion." – Tom Green
Mike, when you consider that the goal is to first improve arm swing endurance, and second to possibly improve arm swing power, and considering the SAID principle, what other exercises would you suggest?
Sorry, I did not mean "slow" but slower then race speed which is approx 15km/hr to make sure we are on the same terms.
Iam a 400m sprinter that will be following a long to short program, starting with some aerobic work later on in the year.
But before that I will need to train for just one race of 5k containing lots of hills.(dont ask me why i must race in it). Of course Iam not spending too much time on training for such long distances but i figured it will also help me with my aerobic side of things.
Iam not able to find enough hills to run on so iam trying to simulate it by using a weighted vest or similar. Are there any better ways of achieving this?
I could bench or do push ups for shoulder strength and do hills for direct arm work…..arm fatigue for the race seems a bit over specialized.
"The first thing you'll be doing is standing in place running arm swings. Sound simple enough? I thought so! You will be performing these with dumbbells, anywhere from 5lbs to 25lbs depending on gender and strength… DON'T cheat yourself. I use 20lbs and it's not easy! I do this 10 times, 60 seconds on with 60 seconds off. The first 40-45 seconds is at a brisk pace, the last 15-20 seconds is all out sprinting of the arms. Be sure to pump your arms without recruiting all of your major muscles, try staying up tall using good technique. Make sure you get FULL range of motion." – Tom Green
Mike, when you consider that the goal is to first improve arm swing endurance, and second to possibly improve arm swing power, and considering the SAID principle, what other exercises would you suggest?
As Carl said I think the weight room is best used for general (rather than specific) strength development. If you want to apply the SAID prinicpal to training the arms under fatigue when running, just do speed endurance work. I'd bet that most of the people who complain about arm fatigue at the end of a 200m or 400m race are athletes who never do longer speed endurance work so when they enter a meet and are asked to run at 95+% their body is not used to it.
ELITETRACK Founder
Hee Haw…
Ran across this and it caught my eye. Very funny, and interesting, if true. This is taken from the popular article attributed to Clyde Hart outlining his 400m training. The title of the article, which I'm sure everyone has seen, is…
400 METER TRAINING
Clyde Hart, Head Track and Field Coach
Baylor University
Waco, Texas
There is a section toward the end. Check out the exercise listed. 🙄
Examples of Strength Training
d) fast 50 meter bounding runs with bar bell.
The general consensus on this forum and others is that Hart's program may be suceeding in spite of rather than because of his weight training.
ELITETRACK Founder
The general consensus on this forum and others is that Hart's program may be suceeding in spite of rather than because of his weight training.
True. And I'm not sure, from reading everything I can on Hart and MJ, that the training the write and speak about is the same training they themselves do.
MJ trained with more than one coach during his career and they other guy he was with did a good amount of speed work, which is kind of forgotten.
how long did he train with the other coach?
