Developing power from KB swings is a myth and a compromise that doesn’t work. If you can’t hit the middle of the force time curve with power, choose the ends and something clear. I laugh when people rationalize how they are using heavy KB swings with athletes. I think it’s good for regular joes but for athletes, do something that can show up on the stopwatch or tape measure, not in a brilliant
Simple Progressions for Power
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Participant
Developing power from KB swings is a myth and a compromise that doesn’t work. If you can’t hit the middle of the force time curve with power, choose the ends and something clear. I laugh when people rationalize how they are using heavy KB swings with athletes. I think it’s good for regular joes but for athletes, do something that can show up on the stopwatch or tape measure, not in a brilliant
Carl,
Rather than a drive-by dismissal, without offering any evidence or rationale, of a means that many coaches use for various reasons, why not review the literature and discuss actual research or case studies. A quick review of the literature finds that in fact your pronouncement that “Developing power from KB swings is a myth….” may be a bit premature, if not a gross over generalization. I offer a few articles for those interest to peruse and discuss.
https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2012/08000/Kettlebell_Swing_Training_Improves_Maximal_and.28.aspx
“The results of this study clearly demonstrate that 6 weeks of biweekly KB training provides a stimulus that is sufficient to increase both maximum and explosive strength offering a useful alternative to strength and conditioning professionals seeking variety for their athletes.”https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/publishahead/Transference_of_Kettlebell_Training_to_Strength,.98217.aspx
“…kettlebells may be an effective alternative tool to improve performance in weightlifting and powerlifting.”https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2012/05000/Effects_of_Weightlifting_vs__Kettlebell_Training.4.aspx
Strength gains greater with weights, but no difference in improvements in power measurement (VJ) between weights and kettlebell. -
Participant
It would be nice to see the full studies. Per the abstracts, two of the studies suggest KB swings were useful while the other said it was inferior to weights (as you stated).
However, it’s unclear the fitness level of the participants. My guess is that they are not “athletes” and thus the results shouldn’t be assumed to be accurate for athletes.
I’m not sure what I believe per KB Swings. I’m not ready to jump on either band wagon yet.
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Participant
It would be nice to see the full studies. Per the abstracts, two of the studies suggest KB swings were useful while the other said it was inferior to weights (as you stated).
However, it’s unclear the fitness level of the participants. My guess is that they are not “athletes” and thus the results shouldn’t be assumed to be accurate for athletes.
I’m not sure what I believe per KB Swings. I’m not ready to jump on either band wagon yet.
“Athletes” is right. With 34 kilo “power” cleans, 22 cm “verticals” technically improvements are happening with “healthy” participants. KB swings are loaded exercises and are great for the fitness community but are they producing freaks?
It’s important to read the full studies as you will see the details that I listed above, proving that yes people who workout twice a week will get better, but I think that’s not what’s holding back the women’s shot or discus. For example look at hypertrophy in six weeks, do we see slabs of muscle being put on the “healthy participants” ? No.
So yes leg extensions of 2 sets of 6 reps will help old people fight sarcopenia but that protocol may not help elite athletes take it up a notch. Based on the research KB swings for time ala “Power to the People” is 16 kilo repeat squatting for time, something nobody is advocating.
When we are citing research that documents loading with weights with RPE we need to rethink what we consider evidence.
Star61 is right, technically KBs should be treated as an exercise that elicits a sufficient stimulus to help a health population improve strength and power. The question is compared to what?
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…
When we are citing research that documents loading with weights with RPE we need to rethink what we consider evidence.
Many, many athletes on this forum are young, underdeveloped athletes with little training and perhaps little or no access to anyone that can teach them proper Olympic lifting technique. I would be happy to read any refereed literature that you might have access to that suggests these athletes would not benefit from a power training regime that included, among other things, KB training.
Star61 is right, technically KBs should be treated as an exercise that elicits a sufficient stimulus to help a health population improve strength and power. The question is compared to what?
When compared to proper Olympic lifting, I would definitely vote for the Olympic lifts, but gaining access to coaches that can actually teach proper technique using appropriate loading is not as easy as it may seem. The vast majority of gyms don’t allow dropping the bar to the platform, and definitely won’t be on board if you want to throw a lighter barbell or dumbell around the gym.
I can see even moderately trained athletes getting some benefit from ballistic high pull throws (outdoors of course) or KB throws/puts as a highly loaded extension of a med ball workout. If you consider a KB as a really heavy med ball with a convenient handle, I think anyone can think of an exercise that might bridge the gap between heavy med balls and much heavier gym work.
Bottom line, before dismissing KBs and denigrating coaches that might use them, I would need to see some evidence that they don’t work.
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KeymasterI like KBs. I have used them increasingly more over the past 3 years. With some athletes I use them almost exclusively for conditioning and / or structural balance (strict segmented TGUs, and other single arm KB lifts are great for this). I even have a KB only circuit that I use that fits in with my body building / weight lifting circuits.
With other athletes, I have used them as an OL ‘replacement’ of sorts because of the setting (large group of in-season team-sport athletes, many with little exposure to the weight room). That said, I think the notion that they can truly replace Olympic lifts is unwarranted for many of the reasons Carl pointed out.
If we’re referring specifically to the swing (which is what most current research literature and blogs are about) I think it’s best used for posterior chain muscular power-endurance.
I’m guessing the thing that sets off Carl (and my BS meter as well) is when people make wholesale shifts that border on being dogmatic while simultaneously touting a magic pill (for example, never squat but do RFESS…heavy KB swings instead of OLs…only run 10m flys and no tempo running….etc).
There’s a time and a place for everything.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
I’m guessing the thing that sets off Carl (and my BS meter as well) is when people make wholesale shifts that border on being dogmatic while simultaneously touting a magic pill (for example, never squat but do RFESS…heavy KB swings instead of OLs…only run 10m flys and no tempo running….etc).
There’s a time and a place for everything.
And that to me is the problem. What is the difference between promoting KBs as a panacea and completely dismissing them as a training aid which is what the original article did.
Time and place for everything
ps I don’t use them myself primarily because we haven’t got any, but if I had I might do for variation.
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Mike Young you said it best “There’s a time and a place for everything.” I agree with what you and Carl have stated 100%.
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We use Kb in our training. However, it’s is not main method of training. Plus I have found kids don’t like it as much as regular lifts in our program.
"Nature hides her secret because of her essential loftiness, but not by means of ruse." -Albert Einstein
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[quote author="Mike Young" date="1352390347"]I’m guessing the thing that sets off Carl (and my BS meter as well) is when people make wholesale shifts that border on being dogmatic while simultaneously touting a magic pill (for example, never squat but do RFESS…heavy KB swings instead of OLs…only run 10m flys and no tempo running….etc).
There’s a time and a place for everything.
And that to me is the problem. What is the difference between promoting KBs as a panacea and completely dismissing them as a training aid which is what the original article did.
Time and place for everything
ps I don’t use them myself primarily because we haven’t got any, but if I had I might do for variation.[/quote]
The balanced perspective blog post addressed this fairly and gave it credit for general conditioning. It was posted a few weeks ago. I dismissed it for maximal power development.
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Participant
[quote author="Carl Valle" date="1352312375"]…
When we are citing research that documents loading with weights with RPE we need to rethink what we consider evidence.
Many, many athletes on this forum are young, underdeveloped athletes with little training and perhaps little or no access to anyone that can teach them proper Olympic lifting technique. I would be happy to read any refereed literature that you might have access to that suggests these athletes would not benefit from a power training regime that included, among other things, KB training.
Star61 is right, technically KBs should be treated as an exercise that elicits a sufficient stimulus to help a health population improve strength and power. The question is compared to what?
When compared to proper Olympic lifting, I would definitely vote for the Olympic lifts, but gaining access to coaches that can actually teach proper technique using appropriate loading is not as easy as it may seem. The vast majority of gyms don’t allow dropping the bar to the platform, and definitely won’t be on board if you want to throw a lighter barbell or dumbell around the gym.
I can see even moderately trained athletes getting some benefit from ballistic high pull throws (outdoors of course) or KB throws/puts as a highly loaded extension of a med ball workout. If you consider a KB as a really heavy med ball with a convenient handle, I think anyone can think of an exercise that might bridge the gap between heavy med balls and much heavier gym work.
Bottom line, before dismissing KBs and denigrating coaches that might use them, I would need to see some evidence that they don’t work.[/quote]
If we are talking about lack of coaching or knowledge, the primary focus of the post was to share how simple LSU exercises can reduce the learning time by revealing underlying concepts. I praised great teachers and users in the earlier post but balanced point of views never get response.
I have history on my side, when I see freaks in the NFL creating quadzilla thighs from swings or JV kids in random parts of Vermont dominating AAU after 6 weeks or even 6 months I will be open. Even great training has limits. If you read the citations from the full articles you will see some limits of the KB swings in isolation. Add anything to a complete program and that is a different story.
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Participant
I have history on my side, when I see freaks in the NFL creating quadzilla thighs from swings or JV kids in random parts of Vermont dominating AAU after 6 weeks or even 6 months I will be open. Even great training has limits. If you read the citations from the full articles you will see some limits of the KB swings in isolation. Add anything to a complete program and that is a different story.
Can you name one NFL quadzilla that built his thights exclusively with the Olympic lifts, or a JV kid from Vermont dominating AAU because a 6 week or 6 month Olympic lifting cycle? No. You’re argument is useless.
Bottom line, KBs have play a roll in both max strength and power training. Nobody is advocating there use exclusively or suggesting they are better than traditional resistance traing, but you CAN augment your strength and power training with KBs if applied properly, and your fear of the scientific literature continues to amaze me.
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Participant
[quote author="Carl Valle" date="1352529180"]
I have history on my side, when I see freaks in the NFL creating quadzilla thighs from swings or JV kids in random parts of Vermont dominating AAU after 6 weeks or even 6 months I will be open. Even great training has limits. If you read the citations from the full articles you will see some limits of the KB swings in isolation. Add anything to a complete program and that is a different story.
Can you name one NFL quadzilla that built his thights exclusively with the Olympic lifts, or a JV kid from Vermont dominating AAU because a 6 week or 6 month Olympic lifting cycle? No. You’re argument is useless.
Bottom line, KBs have play a roll in both max strength and power training. Nobody is advocating there use exclusively or suggesting they are better than traditional resistance traing, but you CAN augment your strength and power training with KBs if applied properly, and your fear of the scientific literature continues to amaze me.[/quote]
I read the citations on the papers you quoted. Conveniently you cherry picked summaries instead fo the real findings. I asked a simple question regarding a comparison of one modality compared to another and now we are talking about a complete program.
Side by side you admitted that heavy and properly performed olympic lifting develops better than KB swings.
When compared to proper Olympic lifting, I would definitely vote for the Olympic lifts
No fear of science or research as I actually read it, and you just shared the abstracts to try to find holes.
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Participant
[quote author="Carl Valle" date="1352529180"]
I have history on my side, when I see freaks in the NFL creating quadzilla thighs from swings or JV kids in random parts of Vermont dominating AAU after 6 weeks or even 6 months I will be open. Even great training has limits. If you read the citations from the full articles you will see some limits of the KB swings in isolation. Add anything to a complete program and that is a different story.
Can you name one NFL quadzilla that built his thights exclusively with the Olympic lifts, or a JV kid from Vermont dominating AAU because a 6 week or 6 month Olympic lifting cycle? No. You’re argument is useless.
Bottom line, KBs have play a roll in both max strength and power training. Nobody is advocating there use exclusively or suggesting they are better than traditional resistance traing, but you CAN augment your strength and power training with KBs if applied properly, and your fear of the scientific literature continues to amaze me.[/quote]
What is more likely to happen Star61? A kid olympic lifting only as his training or a kid doing KB swings + Turkish Get Ups for four years being more likely to succeed? Isolation isn’t a real world situation but decisions must be made.
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Participant
I don’t think anyone actually uses kettlebells as the sole lift for a session though and expects athletic wonders to happen at the top level.
When being used in a program of just swings, turkish get ups, goblet squats, etc, it is a great means to get someone that is new to lifting in shape using more athletic movements that aren’t as intimidating as olympic lifts, barbell squats, etc.
I find they they are a great way to improve stiffness and you are able to create a large eccentric overload through the posterior by actively hiking it backward on the downswing. The posterior stretch at the bottom and then the hip pop at the top after the the pullthrough is absolutely a great way to increase power, imo. I use them as a plyometric alternative on days that have had higher speed volumes or when coordination seems to be a bit lower than usual so I can still work that quick eccentric ability a little extra.
It’s simply a tool that can be used in certain situations. Nobody buys a hammer and declares “Now I can build a house!” But the tool affords extra options for situations where maybe an olympic lift or a plyo isn’t exactly the best option.
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Participant
Josh,
Could you get into detail how you evaluated or measured the results of the swings on stiffness and power? Anything scored or is something you felt while sprinting? I value your opinion but we must be careful of what is being shared as fact without good reference be it just empirical or research. The kinetics of the swing simply don’t allow for such rapid contractions.
Again please read the balanced post –
” I think Kettlebells are great, but we are seeing a dilution of clarity of what the role of a piece of equipment can do. ”
Maximal power and endurance conditioning. Many people do think those two elements can be augmented by KB swings. We all agree that maximal output on either spectrum is not going to happen. Therefore, the hammer or in this case the left handed smoke shifter isn’t going to make an impact. It’s great for beginners or even GPP. but it’s not going to push the athlete to the genetic ceiling due to the limitations of lifting and the fact it’s not able to be mechanically loading the body like DBs and BBs.
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Participant
Personally I see the Kb swing ( which must be with a heavy kb) helps mostly with the eccentric / isometric contraction conditioning which in turns aids system stiffness. Not necessarily the speed at which a muscle contracts but more the quality of its contraction against a negative force.
We have to remember that “slow twitch” muscles still contract approx 14 times a second, and I’m pretty sure we don’t take 14 steps a second. It’s how we’re training the force being generated to be handled.
I find it hard sometimes to load the body eccentrically with enough force under tension. Yes, we have the squat etc but in reality who is really resisting the force ( no Star Wars comments! ) at the bottom in the same way you have to with a swing.
Just my 2p (2cents)
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Participant
I think swings are great as a warm-up exercise, a way to add a bit of volume to training, and similar to Josh, I “feel” the benefit from a flexibility and conditioning standpoint. And they hit upper body (shoulders and biceps) a bit too.
They are also great for an injured athlete who for one reason or another cannot sprint or do plyos.
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Josh,
Could you get into detail how you evaluated or measured the results of the swings on stiffness and power? Anything scored or is something you felt while sprinting? I value your opinion but we must be careful of what is being shared as fact without good reference be it just empirical or research.l…
Carl, could you give good reference, empirical or research based, to validate what you shared? Why is everyone in this forum, other than you, required to document their opinions with data and/or observations, when you never provide any for the assertions you make?
Again please read the balanced post –
Let’s, see, what was it you said in your original, balanced, post….
Developing power from KB swings is a myth and a compromise that doesn’t work. If you can’t hit the middle of the force time curve with power, choose the ends and something clear. I laugh when people rationalize how they are using heavy KB swings with athletes.
Yes, so fair, so balanced. Josh, stop being biased. 😉 Carl, why, in your mind, can’t we train power in the middle of the curve? Doesn’t the application of power happen across the time/velocity spectrum? Why are other means that hit the middle of the curve (Olympic lifts, med balls, plyos, jumps, sled pulls, hill running) proving useful but not kettlebells, which fall between barbells and medicine balls or plyos? Is that the ‘blackhole’ of the Vel/Time curve?
Maximal power and endurance conditioning. Many people do think those two elements can be augmented by KB swings. We all agree that maximal output on either spectrum is not going to happen.
So if a means does not impact the one end of the spectrum or the other, it is of no use? What about Olympic lifts…they’re not on the slowest end of the curve, the powerlifts/statics are. What about jumps, medicine ball and plyos? They’re not on either end of the curve so they must be useless too, right?
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Participant
Star61,
You provided me with clear evidence that not much impact has happened from using the equipment for maximal power. Nobody trains for minimum power or has goals for “a little power”. After 6 weeks what happened? No much. The JS increased power more than the swings. I have included 30 citations in my blog posts so I understand the need to defend an argument.
My statement of hitting the middle of the curve means a combination of load and velocity. If you can’t provide a combination then it’s fine to sprint and lift heavy ala Ben and Tim but have clarity. Like a dumbbell snatch, it isn’t creating an overload that will help generate enough forces to provide athletes with a quality that can transfer. At high ends the law of diminishing returns hits requiring athletes to provide a stimulus that changes the body (motor engram or morphological/biochemical change).
The force velocity curve is just one characteristic of an exercise, so being listed on it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. Tap dancing is high velocity and will be on the far side of the curve but transfer will be little with advanced athletes. For healthy volunteers, the people in two of the studies you shared it may create a stimulus to go from 6.8 to 6.6 in the 40 yard dash.
Let’s be honest here, many elite sprinters are not freaks in the weight room so a limit of transfer exists with weights. I think if you are going to lift weights make sure a clear signal is present.
Josh doen’t need to answer to anyone, including me, but I ask because many people swear by certain exercises and I want both the physics and psychology behind it.
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Participant
Star61,
You provided me with clear evidence that not much impact has happened from using the equipment for maximal power. Nobody trains for minimum power or has goals for “a little power”. After 6 weeks what happened? No much. The JS increased power more than the swings. I have included 30 citations in my blog posts so I understand the need to defend an argument.
You misinterpret the findings. The KBs did improve power. Not dramatically, but isn’t even a little increase better than nothing? Do you have studies that indicate an Olympic lifting program augmented with some explosive KB pulls/throws does not improve power better than Olympic lifts alone? I don’t know the answer, but of course I’m not the one making definitive judgements without justification.
My statement of hitting the middle of the curve means a combination of load and velocity. If you can’t provide a combination then it’s fine to sprint and lift heavy ala Ben and Tim but have clarity. Like a dumbbell snatch, it isn’t creating an overload that will help generate enough forces to provide athletes with a quality that can transfer. At high ends the law of diminishing returns hits requiring athletes to provide a stimulus that changes the body (motor engram or morphological/biochemical change).
First, you are incorrect that you can’t generate enough power in the middle of the curve. The opposite is true. Static lifts like the squat do not generate much power. High force, yes, but not high power. Even with the Olympic lifts, power output is highest at moderate loads, between 30% and 60% of 1RM, I believe. I feel confident that a heavy KB toss would generate a higher peak force than either a 1RM squat or clean.
The force velocity curve is just one characteristic of an exercise, so being listed on it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. Tap dancing is high velocity and will be on the far side of the curve but transfer will be little with advanced athletes. For healthy volunteers, the people in two of the studies you shared it may create a stimulus to go from 6.8 to 6.6 in the 40 yard dash.
You stole the tap dancing comment from me…I used it to illustrate a point about GCT and power output a while ago…you’re welcome. And you have no idea how much the stimulus will improve a 40yd dash. You just scolded Josh for not backing up his opinions and then you do more of the same.
Let’s be honest here, many elite sprinters are not freaks in the weight room so a limit of transfer exists with weights. I think if you are going to lift weights make sure a clear signal is present.
But there is transfer for almost everyone. What about the Tim Collinses of the world? And, what does a clear signal look like?
Josh doen’t need to answer to anyone, including me, but I ask because many people swear by certain exercises and I want both the physics and psychology behind it.
Beyond theory (physcis and psychology, neither of which you’re an expert at) what about empirical studies indicating successful interventions and positive results? And Carl, we like the science as well. My gripe with you is that you rarely provide details and qualifying statements in a thread when asked, but almost always want anyone who disagrees with you to provide documentation, measurements, studies etc. You shouldn’t call someone out and require they provide these things if you won’t, when asked, provide any yourself.
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Participant
Has that post been heavily edited since it was originally been posted? And Carl you said “I have included 30 citations in my blog posts so I understand the need to defend an argument” where are the citations? I can’t find them.
You can start with my last blog post with the Copenhagen study. It’s on the first page.
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Participant
[quote author="Carl Valle" date="1352753498"]Star61,
You provided me with clear evidence that not much impact has happened from using the equipment for maximal power. Nobody trains for minimum power or has goals for “a little power”. After 6 weeks what happened? No much. The JS increased power more than the swings. I have included 30 citations in my blog posts so I understand the need to defend an argument.
You misinterpret the findings. The KBs did improve power. Not dramatically, but isn’t even a little increase better than nothing? Do you have studies that indicate an Olympic lifting program augmented with some explosive KB pulls/throws does not improve power better than Olympic lifts alone? I don’t know the answer, but of course I’m not the one making definitive judgements without justification.
My statement of hitting the middle of the curve means a combination of load and velocity. If you can’t provide a combination then it’s fine to sprint and lift heavy ala Ben and Tim but have clarity. Like a dumbbell snatch, it isn’t creating an overload that will help generate enough forces to provide athletes with a quality that can transfer. At high ends the law of diminishing returns hits requiring athletes to provide a stimulus that changes the body (motor engram or morphological/biochemical change).
First, you are incorrect that you can’t generate enough power in the middle of the curve. The opposite is true. Static lifts like the squat do not generate much power. High force, yes, but not high power. Even with the Olympic lifts, power output is highest at moderate loads, between 30% and 60% of 1RM, I believe. I feel confident that a heavy KB toss would generate a higher peak force than either a 1RM squat or clean.
The force velocity curve is just one characteristic of an exercise, so being listed on it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. Tap dancing is high velocity and will be on the far side of the curve but transfer will be little with advanced athletes. For healthy volunteers, the people in two of the studies you shared it may create a stimulus to go from 6.8 to 6.6 in the 40 yard dash.
You stole the tap dancing comment from me…I used it to illustrate a point about GCT and power output a while ago…you’re welcome. And you have no idea how much the stimulus will improve a 40yd dash. You just scolded Josh for not backing up his opinions and then you do more of the same.
Let’s be honest here, many elite sprinters are not freaks in the weight room so a limit of transfer exists with weights. I think if you are going to lift weights make sure a clear signal is present.
But there is transfer for almost everyone. What about the Tim Collinses of the world? And, what does a clear signal look like?
Josh doen’t need to answer to anyone, including me, but I ask because many people swear by certain exercises and I want both the physics and psychology behind it.
Beyond theory (physcis and psychology, neither of which you’re an expert at) what about empirical studies indicating successful interventions and positive results? And Carl, we like the science as well. My gripe with you is that you rarely provide details and qualifying statements in a thread when asked, but almost always want anyone who disagrees with you to provide documentation, measurements, studies etc. You shouldn’t call someone out and require they provide these things if you won’t, when asked, provide any yourself.[/quote]
When did you start using the tap dance analogy on messageboards?
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Participant
When did you start using the tap dance analogy on messageboards?
Its been quite some time. I’ve only used it a couple of times, maybe both times on this forum. The first time was in response to someone saying emphatically that shorter contact times generate more power (rather than vice versa) to which I responded something like…
{quote]…”I’m sitting here in my chair tapping my foot extremely fast but I’m not going anywhere…” I also added “….my little niece is a competitive dancer and can tap her feet faster than anyone I’ve ever seen, but she’s slow as molasses in winter.” Point being, and certainly not germaine to the current topic, shorter GCTs are function of increased power output, not the cause of it.
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Participant
Josh,
Could you get into detail how you evaluated or measured the results of the swings on stiffness and power? Anything scored or is something you felt while sprinting? I value your opinion but we must be careful of what is being shared as fact without good reference be it just empirical or research. The kinetics of the swing simply don’t allow for such rapid contractions.
The problem is that measuring the results of a a lift in which the goal isn’t maximum weight, but rather maximal force and eccentric loading, is hard.
With lifts you have maxes. With jumps you have distance/height, with sprints you have time, but kettlebell swings fall into an area that is hard to quantify.
This is further compounded by the fact that they are not being used in isolation, but rather as a supplement to the whole program. In the middle school I work in we have an intervention period where using various tests and measures of academic progress we isolate various weaknesses and have students work on specific subjects to strengthen them in it. I use kettlebells in much the same way.
The loading/forces of the kb swing when done with an emphasized downward/backward hike and emphasized hip pop at the top is very similar to the double leg bounds that I have been a fan of for a long time to develop power. But not everyone has the coordination or power to do double leg bounds, nor are their bodies prepared for the forces. Is it identical? Obviously not. But it is similar enough in the motion, forces, and effort required that it is a very good supplement to prepare them for the actual exercise.
Adding them into my program is one of the few changes I’ve done this year compared to my traditional program (for me and my athletes). Testing numbers are higher than last year and improvements are being made across the board. Is this from kettlebells? Possibly. But I’ve also been playing with doing more resisted acceleration this year so gains could be coming from there as well. It could also be increased athlete participation during the optional phase phase, better weather, etc. There are too many variables to know for sure.
But they are a part of our program and seem to be a good connector of sorts, bridging the gap between plyos and weights. The athletes are buying in and responding well, so for me that’s all that matters.
On a personal training note, any time I set a new record for a training session, PR in the weight room, etc, I go back and see what has changed this year from previous years. Increased tempo from training for the 400 and kettlebells are the two major changes.
I know I’m no expert, but I’m in shape enough to be able to test out my theories on these things and at least give a horribly documented case study of sorts.
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Participant
[quote author="Callam Mccabe" date="1352763238"]Has that post been heavily edited since it was originally been posted? And Carl you said “I have included 30 citations in my blog posts so I understand the need to defend an argument” where are the citations? I can’t find them.
You can start with my last blog post with the Copenhagen study. It’s on the first page.[/quote]Carl,
Is this your idea of discussing the science, or even using it to validate a position? Its as if you had this general blog post about individualizing periodization, and you went out and found some random quote from a a barely related topic and stuck it at the top of your post. If the article is topical, why not summarize it and discuss in some detail how its findings, if true, might impact training.
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Participant
You are right Start61. Lead the way and share your knowledge and experience and don’t let a vague or incomplete post stop the discussion. Perhaps you have something specific you want to share about training design and specific adaptations to the muscle fiber.
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Participant
[quote author="Carl Valle" date="1352768913"]
When did you start using the tap dance analogy on messageboards?Its been quite some time. I’ve only used it a couple of times, maybe both times on this forum. The first time was in response to someone saying emphatically that shorter contact times generate more power (rather than vice versa) to which I responded something like…
{quote]…”I’m sitting here in my chair tapping my foot extremely fast but I’m not going anywhere…” I also added “….my little niece is a competitive dancer and can tap her feet faster than anyone I’ve ever seen, but she’s slow as molasses in winter.” Point being, and certainly not germaine to the current topic, shorter GCTs are function of increased power output, not the cause of it.[/quote]
“This type of striding effort is more common with athletes who are taught to move their feet quickly in a choppy manner, as would be done with a “speed-ladder” device. Drills using a “speed-ladder’ can create artificial stride patterns that do not conform to an athlete’s body dimensions and power delivery capabilities. While beginner athletes will benefit from any kind of work- including tap-dancing through a speed-ladder- advanced athletes must be aware of the biomechanical and physiological demands of their sport.”
2008 September
https://www.runningmechanics.com/articles/runing-intuitive-or-complex/firststepquicknessmyths/
Charlie and Derek have used this before as they tend to use vivid quips and Charlie used this example in 2003 in a personal communication over dinner at his house.
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Participant
You are right Start61. Lead the way and share your knowledge and experience and don’t let a vague or incomplete post stop the discussion. Perhaps you have something specific you want to share about training design and specific adaptations to the muscle fiber.
Its your blog. Perhaps you might blog something relevant to the article you quote or answer one of the many questions posed to you in this thread, rather than wasting time trying to determine which poster should be attributed credit for being the first to use the ‘tapping my feet’ analogy.
How about answering my questions regarding your assertion that an athlete can’t generate sufficient power in the middle of the F/T curve to be of any athletic benefit.
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Participant
[quote author="Carl Valle" date="1352870809"]You are right Start61. Lead the way and share your knowledge and experience and don’t let a vague or incomplete post stop the discussion. Perhaps you have something specific you want to share about training design and specific adaptations to the muscle fiber.
Its your blog. Perhaps you might blog something relevant to the article you quote or answer one of the many questions posed to you in this thread, rather than wasting time trying to determine which poster should be attributed credit for being the first to use the ‘tapping my feet’ analogy.
How about answering my questions regarding your assertion that an athlete can’t generate sufficient power in the middle of the F/T curve to be of any athletic benefit.[/quote]
Glad you recognized that it’s the tap dancing analogy versus one you have used recently.
I don’t recall saying that training in the middle of the curve can’t be done to get results with elite athletes. Could you point to where I said it can’t be done? I don’t think high rep 16kb kettlebell swings biomechanically can get the same as 150% bodyweight cleans.
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Participant
Kettlebell swings probably won’t get the same results as heavy cleans but that’s not what you said.
Your opening line was “Developing power from KB swings is a myth and a compromise that doesn’t work. If you can’t hit the middle of the force time curve with power, choose the ends and something clear”.
It’s a pretty out there statement with no supporting evidence. You aren’t in the bracket of coaches whose opinion may hold some sway purely on anecdotal evidence, stop kidding yourself.
It also has to be said that the link you posted was a joke, is just a article on a website, was for the most part incorrect, is not focused on sprinting and is horribly outdated.
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Participant
“Developing power from KB swings is a myth and a compromise that doesn’t work. If you can’t hit the middle of the force time curve with power, choose the ends and something clear”.
If you can’t hit the middle of the curve……hitting is fine and Mladen illustrated that the F/T curve is a theory not a valid model for power development. Sprinting is fast and forceful. I think power confuses people to reduce load to something that will not help move their own COM faster by assuming that moving a dumbbell quickly will work wonders. Now Jump squats with KBs involve a jumping action, creating an overload by including the body and external load, gravity, and maximal effort in a great movement pattern.
What is not hitting? Missing. The 16kg swing may help get some glute recruitment but lower body power needs load and velocity. The swing speeds, mechanics of the exercise, and of course load is not as developing power because of the constraints of the exercise. If it was a 100 pound load, the swing speed is also still too slow.
It seems developing power and expressing it is being confused here. I can produce a huge amount of wattage with vertical jumps, but I am no developing people buy just doing 20 jumps a day 3 days a week as I can with squats that express less power in the lift, but demand more and are investments in power later.
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Participant
Kettlebell swings probably won’t get the same results as heavy cleans but that’s not what you said.
Your opening line was “Developing power from KB swings is a myth and a compromise that doesn’t work. If you can’t hit the middle of the force time curve with power, choose the ends and something clear”.
It’s a pretty out there statement with no supporting evidence. You aren’t in the bracket of coaches whose opinion may hold some sway purely on anecdotal evidence, stop kidding yourself.
It also has to be said that the link you posted was a joke, is just a article on a website, was for the most part incorrect, is not focused on sprinting and is horribly outdated.
The study is ahead of print that I posted so outdated would be a poor choice of words.
Hoier B, Passos M, Bangsbo J, Hellsten Y. Intense intermittent exercise provides weak stimulus for VEGF secretion and capillary growth in skeletal muscle. Exp Physiol. 2012 Sep 7. [Epub ahead of print]
Henk’s discussion in the post was ahead of his time as well, and now we are seeing HRV with regular fitness consumers.
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Participant
only just noticed that your refering to a 16kb!!!
who on earth would do swings with such a light weight?
Thats like me saying doing squats with 20kg will have no benefit or deadlift with a feather.
Choosing the correct weight is more relevant in regards to the correct level of resistance for developing power..
Plus as I stated, the KB has a better benefit within its eccentric cross over phase, plus adding a heavier KB increases its benefit further.
For your argument you are correct a 16kg KB swing is useless.. agreed
KB swinging wit the right weight for the right athlete….Works how its supposed to. eccentric conditioning and a loaded muscle contraction across the force curve.
Also….
…. what on earth does that paper have to do with power!?
Hoier B, Passos M, Bangsbo J, Hellsten Y. Intense intermittent exercise provides weak stimulus for VEGF secretion and capillary growth in skeletal muscle. Exp Physiol. 2012 Sep 7. [Epub ahead of print]VEGF secretion and capillary growth!!!
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Participant
…. what on earth does that paper have to do with power!?
Hoier B, Passos M, Bangsbo J, Hellsten Y. Intense intermittent exercise provides weak stimulus for VEGF secretion and capillary growth in skeletal muscle. Exp Physiol. 2012 Sep 7. [Epub ahead of print]VEGF secretion and capillary growth!!!
Good luck getting an answer to that question, he probably met the authors for coffee one time…
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Participant
Glad you recognized that it’s [i]the[/i] tap dancing analogy versus one you have used recently.
Forget about tap dancing analogies. Its stupid.
I don’t recall saying that training in the middle of the curve can’t be done to get results with elite athletes. Could you point to where I said it can’t be done? I don’t think high rep 16kb kettlebell swings biomechanically can get the same as 150% bodyweight cleans.
You clearly, said it, Callum point it out above. You are making strawman arguments trying to compare the benefits of 16lb. KB swings to 150%bw cleans. As COV-GOV points out, that’s a ridiculous analogy.
The fact is, properly overloading dynamic movements with any type of resistance device, whether it be a barbell, dumbell, kettlebell, medicine ball, weighted best, sled, weighted baseball etc. CAN benefit the athlete in terms of a stimulus that can lead to increased strength, and yes, increased power. You bit off kettlebells because you probably read some meathead article and that made a universal statement that kettlebells are of no use as a tool for developing power for athletes and insulted many coaches and athletes by throwing in the ‘laugh’ comment. Now you are doing your traditional Carl Valle dance around, deny you’re saying what you are’re, and completely refuse to answer questions about the statements you are making in defense of your position.
Let me ask one now…are you saying that there is no need, or it is not useful, for a sprinter to work the middle portions of the F/T curve…that only the end points (high force/low velocity or low force/high velocity) need to be trained?
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Participant
only just noticed that your refering to a 16kb!!!
who on earth would do swings with such a light weight?
Thats like me saying doing squats with 20kg will have no benefit or deadlift with a feather.
Choosing the correct weight is more relevant in regards to the correct level of resistance for developing power..
Plus as I stated, the KB has a better benefit within its eccentric cross over phase, plus adding a heavier KB increases its benefit further.
For your argument you are correct a 16kg KB swing is useless.. agreed
KB swinging wit the right weight for the right athlete….Works how its supposed to. eccentric conditioning and a loaded muscle contraction across the force curve.
Also….
…. what on earth does that paper have to do with power!?
Hoier B, Passos M, Bangsbo J, Hellsten Y. Intense intermittent exercise provides weak stimulus for VEGF secretion and capillary growth in skeletal muscle. Exp Physiol. 2012 Sep 7. [Epub ahead of print]VEGF secretion and capillary growth!!!
The 16kg swing may help get some glute recruitment but lower body power needs load and velocity. The swing speeds, mechanics of the exercise, and of course load is not as developing power because of the constraints of the exercise. If it was a 100 pound load, the swing speed is also still too slow.
Note the very next sentence the 100 pound load was mentioned. If anyone here has kinetic data from research please share. If I see groups of SEC football players doing 100 pound swings please share video.
Regarding the research
That was the citation for that thread, a different discussion.
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Participant
[quote author="Carl Valle" date="1352955796"]
Glad you recognized that it’s [i]the[/i] tap dancing analogy versus one you have used recently.
Forget about tap dancing analogies. Its stupid.
I don’t recall saying that training in the middle of the curve can’t be done to get results with elite athletes. Could you point to where I said it can’t be done? I don’t think high rep 16kb kettlebell swings biomechanically can get the same as 150% bodyweight cleans.
You clearly, said it, Callum point it out above. You are making strawman arguments trying to compare the benefits of 16lb. KB swings to 150%bw cleans. As COV-GOV points out, that’s a ridiculous analogy.
The fact is, properly overloading dynamic movements with any type of resistance device, whether it be a barbell, dumbell, kettlebell, medicine ball, weighted best, sled, weighted baseball etc. CAN benefit the athlete in terms of a stimulus that can lead to increased strength, and yes, increased power. You bit off kettlebells because you probably read some meathead article and that made a universal statement that kettlebells are of no use as a tool for developing power for athletes and insulted many coaches and athletes by throwing in the ‘laugh’ comment. Now you are doing your traditional Carl Valle dance around, deny you’re saying what you are’re, and completely refuse to answer questions about the statements you are making in defense of your position.
Let me ask one now…are you saying that there is no need, or it is not useful, for a sprinter to work the middle portions of the F/T curve…that only the end points (high force/low velocity or low force/high velocity) need to be trained?[/quote]
COV-GOD, like you, have not responded to the 100 pound load point a sentence later. Clearly an oversight or did the point not help an argument.
The fact is, properly overloading dynamic movements with any type of resistance device, whether it be a barbell, dumbell, kettlebell, medicine ball, weighted best, sled, weighted baseball etc. CAN benefit the athlete in terms of a stimulus that can lead to increased strength, and yes, increased power.
True. The problem is properly overloading dynamic movements is a broad option and why are so many talented athletes not getting better or getting hurt? If so many things work, what works best?
Let me ask one now…are you saying that there is no need, or it is not useful, for a sprinter to work the middle portions of the F/T curve…that only the end points (high force/low velocity or low force/high velocity) need to be trained?
Modalities in the middle of the curve have value if LIKE YOU SAY are done properly. Hence the reference to 50 posts about modalities including video of exercises done inside the curve. But theory must meet application and priorities must be made with time and instruction. My belief is that because an exercise lies in the middle or any end doesn’t meet the transfer and value is automatic or guaranteed. High velocity hamstring curls with coaches rolling medicine balls down hamstrings to then be flicked by one’s heels is thought of as silly, but one of the top speed coaches in the country was a fan of that exercise.
If you can’t hit the middle of the force time curve with power, choose the ends and something clear
So if I said that the middle of the curve was the bermuda triangle and should be avoided, then I should be corrected, but many books you will find at Barnes and Nobles will have exercises that claim they are power development for athletes and will not do much more than general fitness. How man people will do dumbbell snatch as a main lift and talk about “insane” bar speeds? I again refer to the post about posture earlier in the week encouraging olympic weightlifting. Jump squats are fine options but for jumping athletes may be an issue. All things must be weighed.
I like the olympic lifts but don’t feel they are valuable unless they are beyond training plates. Sure they have value but we are trying to get athletes maximally developed and sometimes teaching good sprinting and running with simple lifting is better than than exercises that are fancy.
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Participant
RE 100lb load
the swing speed is too slow fro what exactly? depending on the level of force being applied determins the anture of the excersise?
as per anything, if i squat 100kg atg but do so real slow, how much power do i generate? now try and jump it, how much now?
same goes for a100lb KB depends on the effort being applied.
Carl I will give you one thing that you defo make happen….
…. discussion!
I like that. -
Participant
RE 100lb load
the swing speed is too slow fro what exactly? depending on the level of force being applied determins the anture of the excersise?
as per anything, if i squat 100kg atg but do so real slow, how much power do i generate? now try and jump it, how much now?
same goes for a100lb KB depends on the effort being applied.
Carl I will give you one thing that you defo make happen….
…. discussion!
I like that.Why not provide some data and collect what is needed for a 100k swing to apply the force and what impact it has on running. I trust your will be honest if you do something outside the states. Then we can look.
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Participant
So is developing power with aid of kettlebells a myth or not?
You can develop power just getting up and out of a chair, could you be more specific like power to transfer to performance? This is elite track and any level is looking at getting a body faster.
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Participant
How about you be more specific or at least admit you are wrong.
It’s hard to be specific when I am asking your question. I will be honest, if you were using a KB focused program and was making massive improvements I would have to rethink things. Clearly from your training log KB Swings are not a focus.
If research comparing long term effects of KB swings better than 1.5 and 1.1 x BW on the Clean and Snatch shows it’s a better option I will change my approach.
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Participant
Your asking me to prove or disprove what you have said!
It’s not my blog, you want to say there is no transfer…… Prove it!
A lot of coaches are saying different who use practical methods everyday that may or may not incorporate kb
I have shared my opinion, some will agree and some will disagree. The blog post is to share my thoughts that may be wrong, but so far I have yet to see good evidence. Three rather poor studies were shared that KBs do something for the average population. If this was a fitness site I would be interested in it. I think people are interested in something more maximal in development.
The blog is again an option of thoughts, and if you disagree great talk about it. It’s driving the value of the site with every response and creating a lot of good discussion. I rarely see people on messageboards change their opinions so I am not going to invest my time when I think people are not going to be open.
If a good study comes my way please upload the entire article, not highlight abstracts, and discuss.
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Participant
Just another addition to why I like using kb swings with my athletes.
One of the toughest things to teach a sprinter is how to relax enough during a race so they aren’t fighting themselves. Some of it is habit, but I’ve noticed most of it is mental in that the athletes truly don’t believe that staying slightly below balls out makes them faster in the long run.
You can go into a weight room and rage for olympic lifts, squats, bench, etc. But chalking up and screaming while doing kb swings doesn’t exactly make the lift easier. The hike, the loading, and the pull all require good timing and rhythm, and when you start hitting 6-10 reps thats when you notice that the timing and relaxation ease the lift, so to say. It’s much easier to maintain good power and form throughout the set once proper relaxation and when to apply the bursts of effort are learned. It ends up being a good parallel for some of my athletes about the benefits of not just entering rage mode when it comes time to race.
Developing power or teaching a more efficient application of power? Both lead to the same ends and I’m fine with either.
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