Posted In: Sprints
If you have one day of speed (2x20m + 4x flying 20m or 6x60m) and then the next day have 3x150m or 2x250m, how would that work out? I remember reading something about Asafa having a set up similar to that.
So in a week, you can have…
mon: rest
tues: speed
wed: upper body weights + non running tempo
thurs: speed
fri: SE + full body weights?
sat: tempo
sun: speed + full body weights
how’s that?
Disaster!! Maybe Pfaff setup could work.
Mon/Fri Accel
Wed: Max V
Sat: Int tempo >> Speed end
Disaster!! Maybe Pfaff setup could work.
Mon/Fri Accel
Wed: Max V
Sat: Int tempo >> Speed end
So that would be almost the same thing :S except it’s only accel. and not Max.V.
But this leads me into another question, would it typically be the best idea to do int. tempo before doing speed end? or should I just build up to 80-100m and onto 120-150m from there.
[quote author="utfootball4" date="1268103821"]Disaster!! Maybe Pfaff setup could work.
Mon/Fri Accel
Wed: Max V
Sat: Int tempo >> Speed end
So that would be almost the same thing :S except it’s only accel. and not Max.V.
But this leads me into another question, would it typically be the best idea to do int. tempo before doing speed end? or should I just build up to 80-100m and onto 120-150m from there.[/quote]
Dude, what’s the point of doing all that damn volume. Get 2-3 days of sprint training, train less to get more. Even if I was gonna follow a Pfaff type setup it would be with very low volume.
Mon:8×30
Wed: 4×60
Fri: 2x5x20
Sat: 3×150
Tue/Thur bike tempo
[quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1268104842"][quote author="utfootball4" date="1268103821"]Disaster!! Maybe Pfaff setup could work.
Mon/Fri Accel
Wed: Max V
Sat: Int tempo >> Speed end
So that would be almost the same thing :S except it’s only accel. and not Max.V.
But this leads me into another question, would it typically be the best idea to do int. tempo before doing speed end? or should I just build up to 80-100m and onto 120-150m from there.[/quote]
Dude, what’s the point of doing all that damn volume. Get 2-3 days of sprint training, train less to get more. Even if I was gonna follow a Pfaff type setup it would be with very low volume.
Mon:8×30
Wed: 4×60
Fri: 2x5x20
Sat: 3×150
Tue/Thur bike tempo[/quote]
That’s pretty much exactly the amount of volume I do per week, give or take. That should be doable.
[quote author="utfootball4" date="1268105448"][quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1268104842"][quote author="utfootball4" date="1268103821"]Disaster!! Maybe Pfaff setup could work.
Mon/Fri Accel
Wed: Max V
Sat: Int tempo >> Speed end
So that would be almost the same thing :S except it’s only accel. and not Max.V.
But this leads me into another question, would it typically be the best idea to do int. tempo before doing speed end? or should I just build up to 80-100m and onto 120-150m from there.[/quote]
Dude, what’s the point of doing all that damn volume. Get 2-3 days of sprint training, train less to get more. Even if I was gonna follow a Pfaff type setup it would be with very low volume.
Mon:8×30
Wed: 4×60
Fri: 2x5x20
Sat: 3×150
Tue/Thur bike tempo[/quote]
That’s pretty much exactly the amount of volume I do per week, give or take. That should be doable.[/quote]
The question is, do you have to do that much work to improve? I don’t mind 4 hi days in gpp since the overall stress is lower but prefer 2-3 in most other cases.
Maybe not. I don’t mind it and usually enjoy the process which I think is a large part of a sucessful program.
Maybe not. I don’t mind it and usually enjoy the process which I think is a large part of a sucessful program.
What do you mean process?
Meaning I like to train.
Not to hijack the thread, but what if this discussion was about an off season HS football player who was also lifting hard four days per week? By hard I mean lifting for strength and mass, including some heavy weight (>85%) days and some higher volume days (8-10 reps lifting within a rep or two of failure). Would two days of short hill, accel and a little Max V be good, or would three be better? I’ve always thought two high intensity sprint days were enough, maybe three. Trackspeedboy is doing four plus lifting three days, so I’m wondering if three days of short accel work, with one of them including some longer Max V, would be better.
In terms of goals, the three listed below are all fairly high priority, but I’ll list them from highest to lowest…
Mass – would like to gain 10-20 pounds over the next 6 months (this is doable)
Quickness/Speed – would like to improve 10m-30m time by improving accel
Strength – would like to become stronger, but not chasing numbers
Top speed + max strength and hypertrophy lifting = Poor/suboptimal results, at best. More likely injuries of some kind or overtraining if we’re talking about a natural HS guy. You need to be fresh to make the most out of top speed work.
Hill and sled sprints, as you mentioned, are much better options. Hills in particular because sleds tend to cause very tight lower hamstrings, especially if form isn’t great and weight isn’t perfectly chosen. If you want some kind of upright running stimulus, you could do “Controlled Speed Work” -CF or what some people call intensive tempo with long rests or submaximal longer runs. Whatever term, you could do things like 6-8x80m-100m with a very slow walk back rest or 3-5 minutes, making sure the acceleration is extremely smooth and relaxed and the focus is on running rhythmically and smoothly @ top speed.
Top speed + max strength and hypertrophy lifting = Poor/suboptimal results, at best. More likely injuries of some kind or overtraining if we’re talking about a natural HS guy. You need to be fresh to make the most out of top speed work.
Hill and sled sprints, as you mentioned, are much better options. Hills in particular because sleds tend to cause very tight lower hamstrings, especially if form isn’t great and weight isn’t perfectly chosen. If you want some kind of upright running stimulus, you could do “Controlled Speed Work” -CF or what some people call intensive tempo with long rests or submaximal longer runs. Whatever term, you could do things like 6-8x80m-100m with a very slow walk back rest or 3-5 minutes, making sure the acceleration is extremely smooth and relaxed and the focus is on running rhythmically and smoothly @ top speed.
Can you elaborate on the sled and tight lower hamstrings?
For a simple empirical look: Have a massage therapist (or ART or whatever soft tissue therapy you prefer) work on someone who has done work with sleds within the last 24hrs. I’ll put money on them being more tight than usual.
Biomechanically: There tends to be a more jarring foot strike (and more likely to have some overstriding) when using sleds. It would be cool to get some EMGs on someone @ varying resistances, but it seems that knee flexors are more active when using sleds and it is related too to the resistance use and how smooth the resistance is.
Agree with Davan 100% on the sled causing tight lower hamstrings. I love the stimulus that the sled presents but without diligent therapy on the lower hamstrings, I’m afraid that they can cause some problems with prolonged exposure.
Agree with Davan 100% on the sled causing tight lower hamstrings. I love the stimulus that the sled presents but without diligent therapy on the lower hamstrings, I’m afraid that they can cause some problems with prolonged exposure.
What constitutes prolonged exposure?
How might one construct a sled training session to minimize potential damage?
Are the knee flexors more active than on a heavy set of leg curls? By that I mean why is this soreness, in the short term, something to be super-cautious with?
It isn’t soreness necessarily. It is tightness.
What constitutes prolonged exposure? Seriously? This isn’t a Dan Pfaff seminar–it is going to vary based on a myriad of factors. There will be tightness, IME, from any use of it. That isn’t to say it is bad or shouldn’t be used, but it is something that needs to be accounted for and the program needs to make adjustments or at least keep it in mind.
How would you construct a training session? Look at what is said. Less resistance (self-explanatory), shorter distances (ie 20m versus 30m) will reduce this to some degree.
Why is tightness in the lower hamstrings something to be cautious with? Is this a serious question? Seriously man, unusual amounts of tightness in the lower hamstring can = hamstring pulls if not addressed therapeutically or within the program to some degree. It doesn’t mean they will, it is just something to think about.
It isn’t soreness necessarily. It is tightness.
What constitutes prolonged exposure? Seriously? This isn’t a Dan Pfaff seminar–it is going to vary based on a myriad of factors. There will be tightness, IME, from any use of it. That isn’t to say it is bad or shouldn’t be used, but it is something that needs to be accounted for and the program needs to make adjustments or at least keep it in mind.
How would you construct a training session? Look at what is said. Less resistance (self-explanatory), shorter distances (ie 20m versus 30m) will reduce this to some degree.
Why is tightness in the lower hamstrings something to be cautious with? Is this a serious question? Seriously man, unusual amounts of tightness in the lower hamstring can = hamstring pulls if not addressed therapeutically or within the program to some degree. It doesn’t mean they will, it is just something to think about.
My mistake for using soreness instead of tightness and I agree unusual amounts of tightness is a concern.
Prolonged exposure is a bit vague.
What’s complicated? The longer and more frequently they are used, the more likely it is that problems can come up. If you aren’t seeing any issues with your athletes, then it probably isn’t a problem. I’ve personally seen it in myself and a few others and I know Thomas has seen it in his own training as well.
I was referring to using them in a typical GPP setting, 2x a week for relatively high volumes.
Top speed + max strength and hypertrophy lifting = Poor/suboptimal results, at best. More likely injuries of some kind or overtraining if we’re talking about a natural HS guy. You need to be fresh to make the most out of top speed work.
Hill and sled sprints, as you mentioned, are much better options. Hills in particular because sleds tend to cause very tight lower hamstrings, especially if form isn’t great and weight isn’t perfectly chosen. If you want some kind of upright running stimulus, you could do “Controlled Speed Work” -CF or what some people call intensive tempo with long rests or submaximal longer runs. Whatever term, you could do things like 6-8x80m-100m with a very slow walk back rest or 3-5 minutes, making sure the acceleration is extremely smooth and relaxed and the focus is on running rhythmically and smoothly @ top speed.
How else can lifting be done then? I mean if someone is doing 6x60m full out, or flying sprints, then if they’re squatting decently heavy, even if its once per week only, wouldnt that still be some sort of strength/hypertrophy work?
How else can it really be set up?
Do your hypertrophy and ‘strength’ work in the general prep or at a time when you’re focusing more on acceleration and/or fitness versus maximizing top speed/SE.
You can focus on other qualities after that and you can keep lifting to a maintenance emphasis (among other things) that doesn’t include heavy squatting. Heavy lower body lifting = poor tissue quality and tightness as it relates to optimal top speed and SE work. It’s your world though and I’ve commented on this ad naseum and most here will simply say you ‘need’ heavy squatting and ‘need’ heavy RDLs and all the rest throughout. Good luck with that.
Do your hypertrophy and ‘strength’ work in the general prep or at a time when you’re focusing more on acceleration and/or fitness versus maximizing top speed/SE.
You can focus on other qualities after that and you can keep lifting to a maintenance emphasis (among other things) that doesn’t include heavy squatting. Heavy lower body lifting = poor tissue quality and tightness as it relates to optimal top speed and SE work. It’s your world though and I’ve commented on this ad naseum and most here will simply say you ‘need’ heavy squatting and ‘need’ heavy RDLs and all the rest throughout. Good luck with that.
I definitely agree with you on the poor tissue quality part, etc etc only because of my experience with it last year, with removing the squats.
But my question actually was, how do you set up the squats during the maintenance time? 3×3 @ 75%? and any other lifting being done. and do you think 8 weeks is a good time to back off on the squats and then remove it totally?
Your question was, “… if they’re squatting decently heavy, even if its once per week only, wouldnt that still be some sort of strength/hypertrophy work?” Many people here consider anything under 90% or 85% to not be heavy lifting. Either way, you don’t need to lift ‘heavy’ to do a good job maintaining. 3x3x75% could be your maintenance program, or 3-4×4-6×60-70% or many other variations, dependent on your needs and how you respond to things. Simply dropping squats or weights @ 1 week, 4 weeks, 8 weeks, 10 weeks, whatever is completely arbitrary and program dependent and by no means guarantees that you’ll have better tissue quality or be looser or fresher or anything like that. Haphazard programs will always have worse results.
Your question was, “… if they’re squatting decently heavy, even if its once per week only, wouldnt that still be some sort of strength/hypertrophy work?” Many people here consider anything under 90% or 85% to not be heavy lifting. Either way, you don’t need to lift ‘heavy’ to do a good job maintaining. 3x3x75% could be your maintenance program, or 3-4×4-6×60-70% or many other variations, dependent on your needs and how you respond to things. Simply dropping squats or weights @ 1 week, 4 weeks, 8 weeks, 10 weeks, whatever is completely arbitrary and program dependent and by no means guarantees that you’ll have better tissue quality or be looser or fresher or anything like that. Haphazard programs will always have worse results.
Question wasnt worded properly lol. But anyway yah, point taken.
During a period where only short accel is worked with short hills, some sleds (10-20m), and short (10-30m)accels, along with the weights, would three days per week be too much? Would two days be suffecient?
What’s the point in spending a lot of time doing 10m sled pulls??? 10m is like 3 steps… Work the whole curve, add in some submax 150-300m runs.
Mon: 3x3x30 sled
Wed: 8×150
Fri: 2x4x30 accel
I agree with UT. I wouldn’t go as short as 10m probably ever unless coming off of injury or maybe with a very heavy and out of shape individual. I’d stick with distances of 20-30m (prob 20m if using a sled, which shouldn’t be too heavy at all because of issues mentioned early). I’d go as far as 40m if you have a good hill.
I don’t know if I’d go as far as 150s, but it could probably work.
2x a week can be sufficient, but the question is what is optimal. That depends on position (if talking about a football player) and where their deficiencies are. Are you going to get better results by getting the athlete faster or getting the athlete stronger? I don’t know… I’ve done 2x and 3x a week with success and in an optimal situation I’d say 3x a week if the athlete isn’t >220lbs or so. Things will change based on the individual though and if you’re doing 4x a week death lifting as proposed, you probably aren’t going to be able to do 2 days of high volume sprinting (even short accel), let alone 3x a week sprinting.
I agree with UT. I wouldn’t go as short as 10m probably ever unless coming off of injury or maybe with a very heavy and out of shape individual. I’d stick with distances of 20-30m (prob 20m if using a sled, which shouldn’t be too heavy at all because of issues mentioned early). I’d go as far as 40m if you have a good hill.
I don’t know if I’d go as far as 150s, but it could probably work.
2x a week can be sufficient, but the question is what is optimal. That depends on position (if talking about a football player) and where their deficiencies are. Are you going to get better results by getting the athlete faster or getting the athlete stronger? I don’t know… I’ve done 2x and 3x a week with success and in an optimal situation I’d say 3x a week if the athlete isn’t >220lbs or so.
If he’s working with a sprinter I don’t see a problem with 150-300m range, if he’s working a with American football skill position db/wr etc I don’t see a problem doing sub max 4-6×150’s. American football ol/dl I would keep submax work in 4-6×70-80 range very early in the summer program.
Yeah I don’t think it would be a problem at all, especially with a sprinter. If football though, I’d consider doing a few more reps and a bit shorter distance, especially since you can then more easily do the work on grass or turf (ie 6-10×80-100m).
This is what we did back in college.
Week 2:
* 80% stay on balls of feet and run with good tech.
80-80-80-80
80-80-160
160-80-80
80-80-80-80
Week 3:
2x8x80 line 12sec/te-lb-fb 11sec/spec 10sec
What’s complicated? The longer and more frequently they are used, the more likely it is that problems can come up. If you aren’t seeing any issues with your athletes, then it probably isn’t a problem. I’ve personally seen it in myself and a few others and I know Thomas has seen it in his own training as well.
Sorry to hear that you had issues come up from sled work. What advice would you have so that others might be saved from making the same mistake?