Should speed work be done in the GPP phase?
Speed in gpp
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Participant
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Member
Technically yes, but not pure speed work.
In GPP you want to start off with acceleration development to help you build into pure speed work and MaxV work later on.
Acc. Dev. is reps of 10-40m with a moderate volume (usually 400m max and you usually don't get that high) and a rest of 2-3 min.
Start off with that and build your way into speed and maxV work.
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Participant
Whats maxv work?
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Member
MaxV work is reps of 60-80m that helps work on your overall maximum velocity.
You want to start off with acc. dev., 10-40m reps, build into pure speed, 40-60m reps, and by competition be incorporating maxV work into the program, 60-80m reps.
After 80m you are entering the speed endurance work, but MaxV can be achieved in reps over 80m if you are doing ins and outs.
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Participant
400 stud what are ins and out
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Participant
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
MaxV work is reps of 60-80m that helps work on your overall maximum velocity.You want to start off with acc. dev., 10-40m reps, build into pure speed, 40-60m reps, and by competition be incorporating maxV work into the program, 60-80m reps.
After 80m you are entering the speed endurance work, but MaxV can be achieved in reps over 80m if you are doing ins and outs.
Unless you are a very developed athlete, even 60m will have less of a max velocity component. Ins/Outs are nice, but developing athletes should keep the peaks to a minimum (i.e. 1) or just use multiple reps of flying 20s or 30s.
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Participant
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
What do you mean by keep the peaks to a minimum? Are you recommending to stay in the 80m range for all speed/MaxV work?No.
In an ins/outs protocol each "in" segment is referred to as a peak. 80m for a developing athlete is not maximal velocity work, it is speed endurance.
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Member
[i]Originally posted by JJ[/i]
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No.In an ins/outs protocol each "in" segment is referred to as a peak. 80m for a developing athlete is not maximal velocity work, it is speed endurance.
Okay, so you're saying that up to 60m is MaxV work for developing athletes, correct? After that you are working speed endurance, right?
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Member
Are you kidding me?
Than I must be a freak because I am stil accelerating up to about 40-50m and reach top speed at 60m. I had a few different people watch me run 60s in practice once and everyone agreed that because my starts suck, I accelerate for awhile and don't hit full speed until about 60m. That's where I really am moving.
I find it odd that maxV work for developing athletes is only 40m, but hey, what do I know?
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Member
If you do some research you will see that most of the top sprinter record their fastesr split between the 50 and 60 meter segment of their races. Carl lewis and Ray Stewart are the only two sprinters that I can remember off the top of my head that hit top speed after 60m.
With that being said, I don't think developing athletes are accelerating all the way to 60 meters. Maybe you are a freak. -
Participant
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
Are you kidding me?Than I must be a freak because I am stil accelerating up to about 40-50m and reach top speed at 60m. I had a few different people watch me run 60s in practice once and everyone agreed that because my starts suck, I accelerate for awhile and don't hit full speed until about 60m. That's where I really am moving.
I find it odd that maxV work for developing athletes is only 40m, but hey, what do I know?
I'd be surprised if you are hitting your peak at 60m as a developing athlete unless your starts are just brutal (speaking from experience). The sensation of speed that you are feeling may be just the elastic rebound during the primarily vertical force production that occurs once your torso has been driven to an upright position (which is a good thing…)
:yawn:
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Member
[i]Originally posted by JJ[/i]
The sensation of speed that you are feeling may be just the elastic rebound during the primarily vertical force production that occurs once your torso has been driven to an upright position (which is a good thing…)
:yawn:All the words just to say "Lift Phase", am I correct?
Second, what's the yawn for?
Third, you're probably right. I always feel faster when I come up out of the drive phase.
4th, I'm not a freak! 😯
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Participant
1st: All the words to say Lift Phase?
No. There is no lift phase (or drive phase for that matter). All those words are describing what is happening from a mechanical standpoint during the phase where maximum velocity and maintenance mechanics are utilized.
2nd: Why the yawn? I'm tired.
3rd: There is no drive phase. You're either accelerating, at maximum velocity or decelerating.
:yawn::yawn:
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Member
Sorry, did I offend you? Didn't mean to :saint: .
I have always thought there was a name for each phase of a sprint, but I guess not. I still like your explanation in mechanical terms. I wish I knew stuff like that to be able to explain it like that.
Take a nap. You sound like you need it.
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ParticipantLift phase? I better write that down for a video idea later….
I am not a fan of Max V work longer then 30m. What some people aregue is that the intensity of a young athlete will be less so they can handle a longer distance, but I would argue that younger athletes need more shorter distance like running a 20m or even a series of 15-18m.
As for sensations you must remember that sometimes runs that feel slow are fast…remember that the "drive phase" is the slowest part of the race…so you should feel faster up and tall. I think the drive phase is just teaching people to be patient and not to get into the pawing (lord help us) phase too soon…
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Member
Do you recommend the 15-20m sprints for 200/400 runners…at my age/level?
I thought that up to 40m would be good and even 60m, but what do I know?
Would you say that ins and outs and flying sprints are the best way to go for developing speed for developing athletes?
Sorry, a lot of questions, I know. My bad.
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Participant
With low levels of performance….the key is to improve your time..not max speed. So learn to love GPP work. Drop seconds from fitness.:duh:
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Keymaster[i]Originally posted by Phoenix[/i]
With low levels of performance….the key is to improve your time..not max speed. So learn to love GPP work. Drop seconds from fitness.:duh:Very well put (and I wholeheartedly agree), however (as I'm sure you know very well) max speed does seem to be the primary determinant of success for all events up to 400m (at least at the elite level).
ELITETRACK Founder
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Keymaster
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
Do you recommend the 15-20m sprints for 200/400 runners…at my age/level?I would if MaxV was a big priority. I would imagine based on your age and PRs that you could probably only hold MaxV (from a training and not scientific standpoint) for 10-15m. So after a run-in or flying start, you could expect to be able to maintain MaxV for somewhere near 10-15m.
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
I thought that up to 40m would be good and even 60m, but what do I know?Are you referring to a flying 40 or 60m? If so, this would be an inefficient method of developing MaxV because you'd be running quite a ways while decelerating. While this would be a good speed endurance workout, it wouldn't be your best bet for MaxV development. 40 and 60m sprints on the other hand would be useful because they develop acceleration to MaxV (which I'd suspect would occur around 30-40m for you) and then you'd have 5-20m at that speed or trying to maintain.
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
Would you say that ins and outs and flying sprints are the best way to go for developing speed for developing athletes?In my opinion, yes.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Member
So I could stick with my 40m and 60m sprints while also incorporating flying sprints right (like 10m flying and 20m sprint or something)? Or should I stick with ins and outs/flying sprints on my speed days?
Should MaxV be a big priority for me to get my 200pr down since I am a 200/400 specialist? I would think so, but at the same time I would think speed endurance would probably be more of a focus.
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Member
Looking at your 2004 goals would make be believe you have more to gain via fitness than speed. I think phoeneix said it best " drop seconds from fitness".
Dropping 0.2 off of your 60 is much harder than 1.0 off your 400. Go for the big chunks at the end, then move towards the start. -
Keymaster
2belite-
Good points, and I agree that his biggest gains will probably come from general fitness. However, taking off 0.2 seconds off of his 60m time will have a much greater effect than on just his first 60m. If he increases his top-end speed it will carry over so that he should be able to run longer at sub-maximal speeds.ELITETRACK Founder
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Member
[i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
2belite-
Good points, and I agree that his biggest gains will probably come from general fitness. However, taking off 0.2 seconds off of his 60m time will have a much greater effect than on just his first 60m. If he increases his top-end speed it will carry over so that he should be able to run longer at sub-maximal speeds.Mike, I sort of, kind of agree with you on that:P For a more developed athlete a 2 tenth improvement in the 60 would go a long way, and maybe should be worked on specifically. However, in 400stud's case the focus should still be on fitness and general conditioning.
If his goal is to run 23 in the 200m, I am guessing his 100 is in the mid 11s at best. Someone running in the mid 11s is most likely unable to hold form for most of the race and is probably decelerating from as early as 40m. So there is lots of room for general fitness and conditioning to give him a pr in the 100, and that would pay off well in his events of choice the 200 and 400.
I don't see where speed should be a focus for him at this point. -
Member
To tell you the truth, my 100 PR is 11.87. I got it down there from a previous PB of 12.5 from LAST year. I don't run the 100m so I don't concentrate on it.
What I am confused on is what you guys are talking about when you refer to me gaining from "fitness"? What exactly do you define as "fitness"?
I always thought that at a young age speed should be the main focus. My reasoning is that it is easier to train speed when the athlete is younger. You want to have speed qualities in place before you REALLY start focusing on specific endurance. Kind of like in a training year. You should get the speed base in before you work on speed endurance. You see where I'm going?
I saw pretty big improvements in time in only 5 weeks by focusing primarily on speed and speed endurance. I got my "fitness", you can say, during the school year with my coach's ridiculous workouts (10×200/10×300/15×150…full speed).
So if you could clarify more on what you mean by gaining through "fitness" I would greatly appreciate it.
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Participant
I can't speak to what other members mean by "fitness", but I think I know where they are going.
If an athlete does not focus on building the overall work capacity and general strength abilities in the early stages of development, there is the possibility that the athlete may not have the requisite overall biomotor development to complete the higher intensity and volume of training as they move into the higher levels of the sport.
As far as it being "easier" to develp speed as a younger athlete, I'm not quite sure I agree with you on that. I try not to (although I'm not always successful) think of speed in a vacuum or as components (acceleration, max v, etc.), but as a holistic quality that is influenced by many factors. A younger athlete will be lacking some abilities that will limit the ability to which the speed can be developed. I'm not saying, however, that speed work should not be performed. I'm very big on teaching young athletes how to accelerate properly, make the transition to maximum velocity mechanics, etc.
Whew. Should've had decaf after lunch.
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Member
[i]Originally posted by JJ[/i]
I can't speak to what other members mean by "fitness", but I think I know where they are going.If an athlete does not focus on building the overall work capacity and general strength abilities in the early stages of development, there is the possibility that the athlete may not have the requisite overall biomotor development to complete the higher intensity and volume of training as they move into the higher levels of the sport.
As far as it being "easier" to develp speed as a younger athlete, I'm not quite sure I agree with you on that. I try not to (although I'm not always successful) think of speed in a vacuum or as components (acceleration, max v, etc.), but as a holistic quality that is influenced by many factors. A younger athlete will be lacking some abilities that will limit the ability to which the speed can be developed. I'm not saying, however, that speed work should not be performed. I'm very big on teaching young athletes how to accelerate properly, make the transition to maximum velocity mechanics, etc.
Whew. Should've had decaf after lunch.
:wow:Okay, I think I got it now.
So, for example, ext. tempo. That should be at its highest points in the early (GPP/SPP) stages of the year because it helps increase work capacity by strengthening bones, tendons, and joints while teaching the body to recover quicker which will be needed later on during harder sessions?
Then for general strength work…circuits, hills, and what not to help develop muscular and motor strength for later on. Do I have it now?
BTW, JJ, how do you periodize "speed" work for your athletes? Since you don't work on "parts" of speed, but rather the whole aspect of speed, how do you periodize things in terms of types of reps, distances, etc. (obviously more towards the 200/400 type).
Thanks guys. I think this has been a good discussion. Keep up the informative posts.
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Participant
I definetly periodize my speed work. I guess what I was trying to say is that "speed" has different components, but I think it is easy to get drawn into a corner rather than looking at how the sum of the components produce the desired effect: Increased speed.
How do I periodize my speed work? Nothing revolutionary. Acceleration development–> Max V–> Neuromuscular Speed Endurance (one of my strange workout protocols). For my 2/4 guys, I'll start doing some pseudo-Special End. 2 work earlier in the year, but it's not ridiculously fast just because of how far along we are in the macro and weather conditions here in the Northeast. It's more like race modeling-stuff…Like KT, however, I believe that some of the best Special Endurance sessions are competitions.
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Member
So for 200/400 guys you start off with SE2, then acc. dev., then MaxV, and then neuromuscular speed endurance (explanation please)? I was going to go…Acc. Dev. –> Top End Speed (40-60m reps) –> MaxV (60-80m reps…ins and outs…flying sprints) –> Special Endurance. During the end of the Top end speed phase and beginning of MaxV phase speed endurance was going to be introduced. How does that look? Also, during the acc. dev. stage I was going to do split runs that are like special endurance sessions. Thoughts?
When you say race-modelling, are you referring to the pace or the distance?
I agree the best SE sessions are races. There is no doubt about that.
Thanks for the help JJ.
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Participant
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
So for 200/400 guys you start off with SE2, then acc. dev., then MaxV, and then neuromuscular speed endurance (explanation please)? I was going to go…Acc. Dev. –> Top End Speed (40-60m reps) –> MaxV (60-80m reps…ins and outs…flying sprints) –> Special Endurance. During the end of the Top end speed phase and beginning of MaxV phase speed endurance was going to be introduced. How does that look? Also, during the acc. dev. stage I was going to do split runs that are like special endurance sessions. Thoughts?When you say race-modelling, are you referring to the pace or the distance?
I agree the best SE sessions are races. There is no doubt about that.
Thanks for the help JJ.
Sorry. I wasn't clear. I don't start the pseudo-SE2 type runs until later in the fall, probably during the 3rd meso.
When I refer to race modeling, we are working on how to execute the race. The pace is fast, but not ridiculous. "Crisp" as Dan Pfaff likes to say.
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Member
[i]Originally posted by JJ[/i]
I can't speak to what other members mean by "fitness", but I think I know where they are going.If an athlete does not focus on building the overall work capacity and general strength abilities in the early stages of development, there is the possibility that the athlete may not have the requisite overall biomotor development to complete the higher intensity and volume of training as they move into the higher levels of the sport.
As far as it being "easier" to develp speed as a younger athlete, I'm not quite sure I agree with you on that. I try not to (although I'm not always successful) think of speed in a vacuum or as components (acceleration, max v, etc.), but as a holistic quality that is influenced by many factors. A younger athlete will be lacking some abilities that will limit the ability to which the speed can be developed. I'm not saying, however, that speed work should not be performed. I'm very big on teaching young athletes how to accelerate properly, make the transition to maximum velocity mechanics, etc.
Whew. Should've had decaf after lunch.
:wow:Well said JJ, thank you.
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Keymaster
Ditto to 2belite.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
sort the picture out! It's giving me a headache
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Keymaster
Here's my summary (maybe not the same as others)…..if you're a sprinter, speed work should be present at every point of the training cycle in some form. I think early speed work should primarily come from acceleration development with a gradual change in focus to MaxV work. Underlying all speed work however should be a solid foundation of general fitness. The further one wishes to develop their speed, the greater the need for general fitness.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Keymaster
I don't know what you mean by short speed development unless that's maxV work and as for speed endurance it doesn't fit into the picture at all (for GPP that is).
ELITETRACK Founder
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Member
Short speed development, from my understanding, is reps in the 30-60m range that work on just pure speed, in both acc. and maxV form while maxV and acc. dev. work on their respective areas.
Re: Speed End. I thought you were talking about a general Macrocycle. I know Spe.End. does not go in GPP. To me, Acc. Dev. is even questionable in GPP, but that's my opinion.
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Participant
Could somebody please give an example of a hill workout in the GPP for a 100m person that would help increase general fitness, including reps, incline, surface, rest periods, and whether that's the only thing the athlete would be doing that day? I'll understand its just an example and not a rule.
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Member
Hill sprints on a fairly steep hill that's only about 30m long. You could do a bunch of reps of that.
I have the luxury of two different hills right outside my complex and one is good for sprints while the other I use for GS exercises.
You can also throw Running A's on that day as well.
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Participant
Thanks for the reply.
I have access to a grass hill that's about 15 yards long on about a 15 degree incline and a 55 yard long asphalt hill with the same incline.
So, I guess I could do something like 10*15 or more reps on the grass, but this would be more of a speed work variation and not as much a general fitness builder and some GS work on the 100 yard hill. Alright, so cool, but what are some of the GS exercises that could be done on a hard hill. Lunges I guess, I might also try having someone hold my legs and walk up the hill, I could do running As on the grass right next to it. Pushups on the hill might also be good. Oh man, I'm getting excited, I think I'm going to try these today. Can you think of any others 400stud?
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Keymaster
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
Short speed development, from my understanding, is reps in the 30-60m range that work on just pure speed, in both acc. and maxV form while maxV and acc. dev. work on their respective areas.I'm even more confused now than I was before ❓ You're explanations for acceleration development and max speed development are the same as mine but I'm not sure about your short speed development explanation. I like to break down speed development work as either acceleration development or MaxV development…..maybe that's where the confusion is? If you're view is different can you please just clear up the short speed development explanation again.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Keymaster
Pete-
How about forward, side, and backward variations of the following: hops, bounds, runs, skips, lunges, or wheel barrows. You're only limited by your imagination.ELITETRACK Founder
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Keymaster
Wheel barrows are running or hopping on your hands while someone holds your feet.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Member
[i]Originally posted by mike[/i]
I'm even more confused now than I was before ❓ You're explanations for acceleration development and max speed development are the same as mine but I'm not sure about your short speed development explanation. I like to break down speed development work as either acceleration development or MaxV development…..maybe that's where the confusion is? If you're view is different can you please just clear up the short speed development explanation again.
I told you that I'm weird and have a very unusual thought process relative to other people.
I look at short speed development as a tying together of both acceleration and maxV components.
Acc. Dev., to me, works on the "buildup" phase of a sprint, and in the case of the 400, the "momentum" phase. What I mean by momentum is the initial sprint in the curve that carries you out of the curve and onto the 1st straight without expending too much energy too soon. You accelerate hard to have that nice transition out of the curve to carry you down to the backstretch.
With MaxV, that's obvious. It works on maintaing and developing maximum velocity running after the acceleration phase. It's almost like the transition off the curve in the 400 where you are maintaining the momentum you developed from accelerating without jeopardizing too much energy. Note how MaxV runs are usually supposed to be smooth and relaxed and still fast. Also, maxV starts off with a buildup, almost like an acc. zone, that gets you to a particular point where you are at full speed and then you maintain that.
I look at short speed development as both of those workouts in one. You work on the acc. and maxV components simultaneously. You accelerate hard and gain "momentum" and then maintain that momentum for the rest of the sprint at MaxV.
Did I clear it up a bit for you?
I told you I'm weird and I may not be the best at explaining things all the time, but that's what makes me, me. I'm sorry to confuse you, but you just have to accept that I am abnormal in terms of thought process.
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Keymaster
[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
I look at short speed development as a tying together of both acceleration and maxV components…… I look at short speed development as both of those workouts (Acc dev and MaxV dev) in one. You work on the acc. and maxV components simultaneously. You accelerate hard and gain "momentum" and then maintain that momentum for the rest of the sprint at MaxV.Did I clear it up a bit for you?
Thanks. That makes perfect sense now. You definitely do have some weird thought processes 😛 but I like the last explanation you gave. :dance:
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