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Spinal Engine Theory
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Bolts side to side motion is a sign of his hip oscillation, imo, but hip oscillation isn’t a new discovery. I know Mike talks about it in his MaxV video and its one of the main reasons why working full ranges of motion in the hips and maintaining a healthy SI joint is important.
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I think a better comparison is the ostrich. Not only is it bipedal, but it weighs close to human sprinters. They don’t oscillate.
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What I was saying is that his side to side movement could be from his focusing on hip oscillation or projection. Hip oscillation is important and necessary, however his shoulder bobbing/ side to side wobbling certainly seems extreme for it. All that is necessary is free and mobile hips.
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Derick your spot on, you can’t compare a 4legged animal to a 2legged man!!!!
Also can we not refer to it as the engine! As surely it would be the chassis!! Into which the rotational torque is controlled and ‘motors’ added
Further, your stipulating bolt as the agreed model for all to copy, so I refer to 96 and MJ I believe it’s fair to say his rotational torque was fairly under control and he didn’t run that slow did he?
Not saying it’s right but there you have both ends of the spectrum so which is right?
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My thoughts:
The oblique opposite of the stance phase leg has just as much to do with hip oscillation than the stance phase legs GM, imo.
Stand on one leg and raise the other leg to 90 degrees like at max V. Contract the “swing phase” side’s oblique and you’ll notice the change in the hip level (conversely this should cause the stance phase leg’s GM to contract as well). The swing phase leg gets higher (albeit its less than an inch) while maintaining its parallelness to the ground and the stance phase leg is driven into the ground more. If you were to draw the changes in each sides height throughout the race, it would look wavish.
Now is this applicable to sprinting? I’ll admit I haven’t actively attempted to focus on my obliques while sprinting, but I imagine focusing on contracting one sides obliques during each step would be fairly hard to do, if even possible given the quickness needed to contract and relax at max V.
Still, I am all for having a stronger core/hip union
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KeymasterJeez JC…you just won’t let this (what the ‘engine’ of speed is) rest despite being a voice of one in this thread. [/url]
The spine is certainly certainly important and one that I frequently discuss but the idea that findings from quadrapedal locomotion (from a slowly moving lizard!) have the bearing on bipedal locomotion that you seem to insist on is absurd. Muscle sizes, functions and attachments are very different; tendon lengths are so varied as to serve different roles, and gait patterns are COMPLETELY different, the orientation of the spine with respect to the direction of locomotion is different, etc, etc.
Also, as for the muscles being bullies and efficient movement being the only way for efficient movement is extremely narrow-minded. The tendons and other soft-tissue can’t do their job unless the muscles contract. Imagine trying to snap a rubber band (the tendon in this analogy) if it were not held firmly fixed on one side (the role of a contracting muscle).
ELITETRACK Founder
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Some degree of hip oscillation is needed but surely lots of it would be negative due to diminished horizontal velocity. This thread doesn’t sit well with me, everyone except Bolt should change the way they run and try and run more like an animal…
Was it the OP who posted the link to that paper about reduced tendon force after a ridiculous amount of vibrations?
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Keymaster
Some degree of hip oscillation is needed but surely lots of it would be negative due to diminished horizontal velocity. This thread doesn’t sit well with me, everyone except Bolt should change the way they run and try and run more like an animal…
As with most things in life, moderation is better than too much or too little.
Was it the OP who posted the link to that paper about reduced tendon force after a ridiculous amount of vibrations?
Yes.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
From the linked article…
“Canadian nuclear physicist Serge Gracovetsky, PhD, rebuked the pedestrian model by declaring that counter-rotation of the shoulders and pelvis is an essential key to locomotion and force is not generated by the legs, but instead arises through a complex muscle/skeletal interaction propelled by what he calls a “spinal engine.”1 He further explains, “Evolutionarily, locomotion was first achieved by the motion of the spine. … The legs came afterward as an improvement, not as a substitute.”
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Thanks for posting that. It’s awesomeness in a nutshell…a nuclear physicist who shows himself to be completely incompetent in biomechanics with just one sentence.
I don’t think anyone’s arguing that the hip-shoulder rotation is important. But to say that force is not generated by the legs is absurd. And the evolutionary issue means little in this argument as evolution by definition is a progression and change. Many ancestral body types and extremity functions have changed. “Hands” of a bat? Toe nail of a horse?
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Member
Trolling…
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Keymaster
This is getting laughable. So the legs don’t provide propulsive forces but the spine does? You are aware that the spine is bone and not capable of contraction? Likewise with the soft tissue…incapable of producing tension without the muscles contracting.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Keymaster
Trolling…
Agreed. Becoming more and more obvious.
ELITETRACK Founder
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[quote author="Alex Andre" date="1309410669"]Trolling…
Agreed. Becoming more and more obvious.[/quote]
Nothing but a clown.
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No way. I’m actually recommending to my athletes from now on to not ever where shoes, walk and sprint on all fours and never set foot (and hand) onto paved roads.
I’m going to have a huge stable of sub 10 women in no time!!!
If the legs aren’t really for propulsion, why not just have them do the Worm from start to finish?
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I hate to give any consideration to this at all to open or expand the discussion but……
I think what should have been pointed over but was not done so, is the importance of force transference through the core
Each legs force being influenced by the alternate arm/upper body and the torsion resistance and SSC created which the op has hugely mistaken as simply being all from the spine
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I hate to give any consideration to this at all to open or expand the discussion but……
I think what should have been pointed over but was not done so, is the importance of force transference through the core
Each legs force being influenced by the alternate arm/upper body and the torsion resistance and SSC created which the op has hugely mistaken as simply being all from the spine
Agreed. There is some legitimacy to the importance of the spine as part of the chain of force transfer, but OP has grossly exaggerated the point just to be combative.
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What have the long jumping dogs taught us?
I can’t wait to see an astrophysicist write a paper on these animals and Mike Powells performance.
What else is there…maybe Giraffes and HJ?
Just in case you weren’t sure as well,
Here is a video of a cheetah:
And here is Bolt:
Man, having just re-watched them both, you are right…they are almost identical.
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JK cooper.
Please keep the info you bring construktiv. Whats the practical
application of your post?? Are you
looking for attention, or being construktiv?
also you still need to answer me in this post:
https://elitetrack.com/forums/viewthread/9993/
Callam Mccabe.
The belief that rotary force is negativ for horizontal force
production is fare to simplistic. One of the amazing thinks in
relation to human movement is the unconcious us of alle planes of
movement in optimizing force production. forexampel the myth that faster
sprinting times are achieved true faster swing leg action can be
dispelled by the fact that the hip does not follow a linear path but
undergoes hip adduction, abduction, internal and external rotation
before arriving at peak flexion. If you only look at sprinting as a
strict horizontal movement and your plane of reference is only from the side your
missing out on alot of important information. Also its very
important to understand that in maxv sprinting, vertical force
production is the key to horizontal velocity
Talking about sprinting technic in general is to simplistic in
relation to spinal movement. At least some discrimnation between the
biomechanics of MaxV and acceleration is needed. To better
understand the importance of spinal movement in running and
sprinting i would advice people to read, Running by, Bocsch. Great
book in relation to understanding sprinting mechanics.
As Mike pointede out the spine is non-contractile tissue and cant
create force, only observere force, but spinal positioning is very
important in relation to optimal sprinting mechanics. Below is an
explanation of the why and where in relation to spinal movement in
sprinting
Acceleration:
Lateral movement of the lumbal spine with the purpose of increasingthe length of force production.
Rotational movement of the thoracis spine to counter balance therotational force of the hip.
Lumbal fleksion to decrease the sagital torque around the Center ofmass
MaxV
Lateral movement (less, but its their) of the lumbal spine. Todecrease the force needed to stabilise the hip against adduction in
stance phase. In acceleration the hip goes into abduction at stance
phase and the spines undergoes lateral flexion to the opposite side
of the stance leg. In maxv the spine lateral flex to the same side.
Rotational movement of the thoracis spine to counter balance the
rotational force of the hip.
Extension and flexion. Most undergo lumbal hyperextension at take
off and some form of lumbal flexion in swing fase or atleast
positioning of the pelvis into neutral. Lumbal flexion decreases the
ROM and force need for swing leg action. Lumbal extension is
modified in relation to how much hip extension ROM you have and the
amount of groundcontact time needed you need to produce a sufficient
stride length. Overstriding is typical associated with to much
lumbal extension, long strides comparede to stride frequency and
increased backside mechanics. The above description is optimal
spinal movement, and lack of some kind functional capacity will
change den spinal movements as compensation. A classic exampel is
lack of dorsi flexion or hip extension/internal rotation increasing
lumbal rotation, extension at max V running.
in this video every athlete sprintning follow these generel
guidelines. Tjek for yourself
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From the linked article…
“Canadian nuclear physicist Serge Gracovetsky, PhD, rebuked the pedestrian model by declaring that counter-rotation of the shoulders and pelvis is an essential key to locomotion and [b]force is not generated by the legs,[/b] but instead arises through a complex muscle/skeletal interaction propelled by what he calls a “spinal engine.”1 He further explains, “Evolutionarily, locomotion was first achieved by the motion of the spine. … The legs came afterward as an improvement, not as a substitute.”
A very easy statement to dispel. Put on a pair of roller blades. Tie the legs together and swing whatever body part you want to….spine, arms whatever but the legs and see how fast you go. Time your performance over 100m and get back to us in three years when you finish the race.
Experiment 2: put on a straight jacket and then time yourself over 100m and then get back to us in 12-13 seconds when you finish the race and then please tell everyone whether the upper body or the lower body is the engine for running/sprinting.
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It hit me last night that the real engine in the body stems from the spinal engine.
Usain Bolt on top form in both Beijing & Berlin made better use of the ‘spinal engine’ & the body’s four major spring systems.
Original Link: https://massagetoday.com/mpacms/mt/article.php?id=13852
He flew down the track in a series of laterals (side to side bending), rotations & spirals, producing far greater torque throughout the entire body (coiling the spring). We see that especially with his starts. A fixed spine is a non-functional one, it hates sustained compression but loves storing and releasing rotary torque. Barring Bolt, almost all elite sprinters run in fixed/upright 2D form. This then should question 2D plane movements such as squats, deads, oly’s etc in the future.
For any sprinter to topple Bolt, they will need to make better use of the ‘spinal engine’ & the body’s four major spring systems. Spring/elasticity dominates not force.
Serge Gracovetsky was right.
The answer has always been there.
0:57.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3kTZ_K3ytQ[/youtube]
I’m convinced now that Serge Gracovetsky had an insane sense of humour and may be having a giggle at how easy it is to convince humans.
Of all the upper body slings/elastic tissues the evidence now shows that the fascia of the trunk is incapable of transmitting sufficient forces except perhaps near the extreme end range of movement. The ligaments that support the spine are strong enough to support the entire weight of the trunk in full flexion (equal to 58% of body mass) and if there was a sling that could contribute this would seem to be the one. However I haven’t noticed any sprinter in history to deliberately recruit this ligament by either going into full flexion for each stride or at least using a full flexion of the head [PLEASE NOTE: I STRONGLY ADVISE AGAINST TRYING FULL FLEXION AND THEN EXTENSION OF THE HEAD WHILST SPRINTING BECAUSE YOU’LL GET A NECK INJURY]
Quite simply the rotation of the upper body is only to balance the inertia of the masses of arms and legs. Arm biomechanics can influence force production but for most runners the use of arms is as close to optimal as possible and any effort to change it is likely to only waste time and cause confusion. At elite level there is no discernable difference.
Looking at footage of Usain Bolt’s world record run I would say I did not notice any difference in upper body biomechanics compared to other sprinters. Any rocking of the body is only due to the fact that there may be a difference on leg length (a shorter left leg would benefit 200m sprinters) and as with most other sprinters the assymetry in sprinting postures is related to the difference in strengths of each leg. There is plenty of biomechanical evidence during the first few steps that reveal this.
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Did I totally miss something in studying engineering? What in the world is coiling? Are you trying to talk about spring energy and elasticity?
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[quote author="Zach Batcho" date="1309854961"]Did I totally miss something in studying engineering? What in the world is coiling? Are you trying to talk about spring energy and elasticity?
Coiling is counter-rotation/upper-lower body separation. It’s twisting the torso and legs in opposite directions. Newton’s law of action and reaction applies!.
Coil the spring and unload it when you want it to. It’s storing a turning force to be used later in the stride.
So again, I greatly encourage this exploration because I believe that’s how great things are discovered, by an open mindedness and daringness to explore things we never considered before.[/quote]
By the way, I am extremely open minded but realistic. Try jumping up and swinging your arms or rotating your body and see if your legs move. I just tried and had to go to an extreme range of motion to end up with one foot two inches in front of the other (and a sore back). This implies that a relatively large energy cost (and impractical range of movement whilst fast sprinting) is required to move the leg two inches from the manipulation of the upper body whereas a simple utilisation of leg muscles will swing the leg back greater distances in the same time (jump and swing the leg back and see how far it goes). Moral of the story; the legs are the engines. The upper body movement can provide counterbalance and reduce energy loss.
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[quote author="Zach Batcho" date="1309854961"]Did I totally miss something in studying engineering? What in the world is coiling? Are you trying to talk about spring energy and elasticity?
Coiling is counter-rotation/upper-lower body separation. It’s twisting the torso and legs in opposite directions. Newton’s law of action and reaction applies!.
Coil the spring and unload it when you want it to. It’s storing a turning force to be used later in the stride.
So again, I greatly encourage this exploration because I believe that’s how great things are discovered, by an open mindedness and daringness to explore things we never considered before.[/quote]
So based on Newton’s this counter-rotation is going to send us running sideways. Because there is no release point where you take that torque create by rotation and send it in a forward. Even the collision of torque from the legs and torso won’t create forward momentum.
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[quote author="JC Cooper" date="1309858366"][quote author="Zach Batcho" date="1309854961"]Did I totally miss something in studying engineering? What in the world is coiling? Are you trying to talk about spring energy and elasticity?
Coiling is counter-rotation/upper-lower body separation. It’s twisting the torso and legs in opposite directions. Newton’s law of action and reaction applies!.
Coil the spring and unload it when you want it to. It’s storing a turning force to be used later in the stride.
So again, I greatly encourage this exploration because I believe that’s how great things are discovered, by an open mindedness and daringness to explore things we never considered before.[/quote]
So based on Newton’s this counter-rotation is going to send us running sideways. Because there is no release point where you take that torque create by rotation and send it in a forward. Even the collision of torque from the legs and torso won’t create forward momentum.[/quote]
Correct. If the upper body is used as a prime mover, the only way in which it can initiate leg movement is through rotation of the upper body which produces a rotation of the hips which results in you running sideways. Therefore the legs must counteract this rotation and energy is wasted. Upper body rotation could occur in response to using the legs as the prime mover and the movement of the arms is well suited to minimising this.This is not to say that the core is not important to sprinting fast but we have to realise what we are trying to achieve. Force is required to lift the leg up and swing it forward; for example when running at 12 m/s this requires the leg to be swung forward at more than 12 m/s. The psoas major has the task of lifting/swinging the leg forward and this attaches to the upper lumbar/lower thoracic spine which requires a stiff lower trunk to facilitate the maximum/most effective pull by the psoas major.
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Hi guys, apologies for bringing this thread back from the dead but I was reading through my spam box on facebook and came across this from Serge Gracovetsky…
Callam
I just read by accident the rattle you made in the https://elitetrack.com/forums/viewthread/10030/P30/
It would be a good idea to read what I wrote before quoting me. That would save a lot of irrelevant comments by individuals that do not verify the sources and take anything for cash. Not a very good approach in a university environment.
The whole confusion is between bipedalism and human gait. You can have an elephant walking on two legs. That makes it bipedal. A very inefficient bipedal animal. Dinosaurs were also bipedal, long before us. Conversely, bipedal (say us) can walk on four limbs. Inefficient but possible. Look at the cheetah and you will see the work of his spinal engine.
And the question is this. What should be the anatomy of an efficient biped using the constancy of the earth gravitational field to transfer energy from the powerful extensors muscles of the legs? Think outside the box. You know you can walk on your knee. Hence the lower part of the leg is not necessary. Then how much of the leg can you cut before the characteristic spinal motion of human gait is lost. The answer is all the leg. Legs are not necessary for human locomotion (that explain the use of prosthetics). They improve velocity though etc…
You must ask yourself how you can link the primitive lateral bending of the fish to human gait. That is the spinal engine proposal. You can read more at https://sites.google.com/site/gracovetsky/ and in particular see the experiments done on legless individuals in the accompanying videos.
I feel like this guy deserves to have his argument out there rather than just having JC fight his side.
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