Dwight Philips has really kinda been stuggling since 2005…(stuck at 8.30m,) and i was watching some videos and saw some interesting things…
when he jumped 8.60m i thought he technique was near to perfect, expecially his take off range, from reach to pull back…
when watching his take off in Osaka, it was so so different to a couple of years before…
im a big beleive that the take off leg has to reach and pull back very aggresively and therefore finish very high and far back behind the athletes butt…during the 8.60m pic you can clearly see this…Angles of his take off leg and free leg are totally different, and this is as far back as his take off leg goes on the 8.20m jump in Osaka, which would suggest he didnt use his glutes or hamstrings nearly as much as he did on the 8.60m one…
i think this is the key to a good take off at speed…
You never ever want reach when planting the take off leg. The goal is to keep those front side distances at a minimum. Dwight Phillips is struggling mightly with his penultimate step. He has a history of being inconsistent in setting up his jump.
Crazyhops, I believe is refering to the extension of the leg (reach) and then to pull back. AND then plant the take off leg. This is much more active and promotes use of the whole leg rather than relying on concentric strength alone… so you get eccentric and concentric… wow… two is better than one. Try it for yourself and see Novice.
Other than that, I agree with crazyhops that dwight phillips doesn’t quite do what he used to.
yeah agent, thats exactly what i was saying…you can not plant your take off leg directly underneath and expect to get any height, it is essential to plant forward of centre of gravity and pull back very aggresively with a very stiff leg…
i thought these pics demonstrated take off very well…hope dwight gets it right…
Novice, your coach definitely taught you in-correctly…
I also believe your takeoff leg needs to be slightly in front of your COM to get lift. I am not sure if you can actually pull and plant though. If you watch long jumpers in frame by frame you will notice that going off the penultimate onto their takeoff foot you see the quads flexed and not the hamstring which tell me they are not pulling but letting gravity do the work for them. That is just what I have seen. I tried looking at the video of him from this past weekend but couldnt find it. Can you please provide a link?
There is no way that one can actively pull and create the vertical lift necessary to long jump optimally. The hamstrings actually would prevent an active pull through. As tkaberna pointed out a plant in front of the COM allows gravity to assist you in the jump as much as the strength of leg allows. In fact of all athletes I see competing in the long jump these are the second most inconsistent just behind those who practice hitch kicking and don’t have the forward rotation for it to be of any use in their jumps when cued upon to do an active pull through.
To me the statement of “an active pull with a stiff leg” has two actions which conflict one another. Here is why, the penultimate step should create an increase in gct for force production and translation of horizontal velocity to vertical velocity of the COM. An active pull through may increase gct, but brake the athlete and inhibit horizontal velocity to vertical velocity of COM. A stiff leg is definitely needed otherwise there will be excessive collapse in the gct phase of the penultimate step which would again inhibit the translation of velocity and you would lose horizontal velocity without translating it to vertical velocity. This type of collapse and slowing is often accompanied by the symptom of having an active pull through.
To make this long story short, an effective long jump utilizes elastic and eccentric force production more so than concentric force production. An active pull is a concentric action, a mostly passive pull is an elastic and/or eccentric initiated action. One of the best general purpose practices I have with jumpers in the winter time is doing layups playing basketball as most people naturally do a correct penultimate step while performing them. The motor control in the brain is a beautiful thing don’t waste it by confusing things via the action-language bridge.
Also, don’t criticize Novice’s coach he wasn’t taught anything incorrectly and those pics are as about as good as a can of gasoline to a stranded cyclist in the middle of death valley.
Also, don’t criticize Novice’s coach he wasn’t taught anything incorrectly and those pics are as about as good as a can of gasoline to a stranded cyclist in the middle of death valley.
I concur.
Btw, who needs height? I see countless coaches preaching LJ height to kids who get bombed by my guys who run real fast and get about 12″ of height.
you tell me how many people can actually run 11m/s ? ? ? ?
There are more than one way to jump 8m, and for virtually everyone, that means getting height…like i said unless, you are incredibly fast…
J moore, from the UK, not fast at all, but gets more height than anyone i know, and jumps 8m, but doesnt run 10m/s on the runway…
Novice, said, you never want to react when planting your take off leg, this is wrong, someone must have taught him wrong? no?
And the “active pull back with a stiff leg” was something taught by Pete Stanley, among others…and is obvious that it works, but is also hard to do. You have to pull down and back, and without a stiff leg, speed is lost, as you said. I’ve jumped a million times, and watch more videos, it is how to take off the best, its also obvious when watching many of the top jumpers in the world, so im so sure how its “impossible” to do…I’m talking about when the take off foot is planted, then a very active pull down and back is needed…
And the pics, lol…those pics show the point i was trying to make with this, that DP’s take off leg was much more active back then, you can CLEARLY see by those pics, that the range was much greater on his good jump compared to his average jump.
He’s in the air in those pics!!! and those pics are worthless. His range of motion would be a symptom of spatial-temporal issues and the previous steps in his approach and not an active pull through.
you cannot have a stiff leg and pull through actively. Stiffness is produced via co-contraction and isometric contraction and a pull wouldn’t allow enough of a co-contraction of the muscles crossing the hip to produce the stiffness you are talking about their, because stiffness at the knee would be compromised with the hamstrings losing most of your elastic energy return. I know you are talking about when the foot is planted. What you are describing is impossible, so you must mean something else.
when u determine someones take off angle…their leg is straight…ill get a pic later…therefore it is possible..
and those pics shown what I WAS trying to discuss…that his kick back was very active on the 8.60m and wasnt on the 8.20m. (how aggressively his take off leg goes back and up to his butt, get me? the more aggressive this is, the more aggressive his pull back AT TAKE OFF was…
“Actively” reaching in the take off to facilitate the pull will hurt your jumps big time. Your take off leg is already in front of your COG naturally at that point…the athlete only causes more damage by trying to add to that distance.
reaching? i said the take off leg has to be out in front of you at take off and NOT directly underneath you…there is an eliment of reach and pull back, but not reach more than you need to. If you contact directly underneath you, you can not get any pull or push, just push will get you no height at all.
this vid really shows everything i was talking about, but he doesnt do this anymore…which was my point!
reaching? i said the take off leg has to be out in front of you at take off and NOT directly underneath you…there is an eliment of reach and pull back, but not reach more than you need to. If you contact directly underneath you, you can not get any pull or push, just push will get you no height at all.
this vid really shows everything i was talking about, but he doesnt do this anymore…which was my point!
That take off occured with his foot directly under his COM?? If you can jump forwards with your jumping leg in contact with the ground in front of you, then you are amazing!
You don’t reach to get your foot to contact in front of your COM, you lower your COM to cause the foot to make contact in front of your com. This creates a longer ground contact time and creates the large amplitude in hip (COM) oscillation to create a big jump. There is no active pulling in 8.6m jump.
mortac which comment? the height one? are you saying his coach tells him not to get height? If you look at his best jumps, 8.59, 8.60, 8.60, he gets considerably more height on them than his other jumps…
And Dbandre, im sorry but i just disagree, i’m a long jumper at an OK level at the moment, and i know how important it is to my jumps, plus I SEE IT in the video, and sure as hell feel it when i get it right myself…his take off on the 8.60m was completly different to the Osaka 8.20m one in the final round. His intitial ground contact on his take off was not underneath him, and many jumpers try to make the initial contact underneath them directly, and i said this wasnt correct…
His take off angle was different, his penultimate was different, his knee drive was different, his follow thru with his take off leg was different, and the distance was very different…
but that wasnt where is first contact was made at take off was made…
“His intitial ground contact on his take off was not underneath him” thats what i said…INITIAL…
and you’ll also find that the position he’s in when he actually leaves the ground is quite far behind his COG, which is excellent…on his worse jumps, neither is very true…
Do you not know how to use hip extension when long jumping? Crazyhops is refering to extending the knee and actively using hip extension as the primary force producing action in the inital takeoff. (thus pull back) There is a push, but first comes the active pull back. This pull back does aid in using the whole leg to jump far, not just jumping up bending the knee and using the quads mainly and calf muscles (this is what I understand from your posts thus far). What do you coach or use yourself?
Novice,
Pushing up is not enough. Pushing up cause too much excess knee bend and you would not be using your hip at all of jumping, but the quadricep… thus a quad jumper. Pushing up would be enough if you can run 10.7 for 100m though. In my experience a lot of jumpers can not run that fast and neither can a lot of college jumpers… so to get them to jump their best they need to learn to use the whole leg and the whole body to jump far or even run fast.
yeah, your picking up on it..the glute muscle is very powerful and many people dont use it well on take off, by doing what we’ve discussed the take off is much more powerful and horizontal V is maintained better also…
you pull, then push down and back as far as possible really..and trust at great speed its very hard to do, most people hit the board and then leave the board with no penetration at all because they dont try to use their entire leg, and instead just bend the knee and use quad and hamstring alone…
dbandre,
In my experience a lot of jumpers can not run that fast and neither can a lot of college jumpers… so to get them to jump their best they need to learn to use the whole leg and the whole body to jump far or even run fast.
To get them to jump their best they need to learn to run fast. I see a lot of really good triple jumpers who are really poor long jumpers because they have no jets.
I used to have calculations (looking for them) showing that in order to jump 7m you only need about 10″ to 12″ of lift (depending on your body structure/height) if you takeoff around 10m/s.
That is true, but mechanics and running fast go hand in hand.
You would be surprised the improvements in speed that can be achieved with no mechanics focus. Train them so they are capable (strength/mobility) of running with correct mechanics and they often will.
I am actually being suprised now. What you might be refering to is what Dr. Yessis has done and published (strength/mobility of running with correct mechanics… strength in joint actions specifically as the occur in running or sprinting). I agree again that is most ideal with no mechanics focus.
nick, are you refering to some king of pull as seen in markov triple jumping (in which he is pulling with his jump leg still high and front in the air) or a pull that starts after the foot has striken the ground?
wish i knew how to put pics on here like that, because there are many examples are jumper who do it..but my point was, not all do, and during Dwights lesser jumps, he doesnt do it nearly as well as his better ones…
wish i knew how to put pics on here like that, because there are many examples are jumper who do it..but my point was, not all do, and during Dwights lesser jumps, he doesnt do it nearly as well as his better ones…
just gotta do right click on the image, copy image adress
then paste the image adress in this way
[code]
[/code]
I have also noticed that some people plant their take off foot in a more vertical manner, and other do it like markov, with a bigger horizontal component in the movement
Do you not know how to use hip extension when long jumping? Crazyhops is refering to extending the knee and actively using hip extension as the primary force producing action in the inital takeoff. (thus pull back) There is a push, but first comes the active pull back. This pull back does aid in using the whole leg to jump far, not just jumping up bending the knee and using the quads mainly and calf muscles (this is what I understand from your posts thus far). What do you coach or use yourself?
Novice,
Pushing up is not enough. Pushing up cause too much excess knee bend and you would not be using your hip at all of jumping, but the quadricep… thus a quad jumper. Pushing up would be enough if you can run 10.7 for 100m though. In my experience a lot of jumpers can not run that fast and neither can a lot of college jumpers… so to get them to jump their best they need to learn to use the whole leg and the whole body to jump far or even run fast.
The hip extension that occurs does so because of a semi-active/semi-reactive push, not an active pull. From my experience as a coach far better jumps occur for athletes from coaches who correct and cue the approach rather than the take-off. If you believe Phillips take-off is flawed, it is probably because something is amiss in his approach.
You don’t jump with your foot in front of your COM. It plants in front of your COM and does so because the athlete lowers his COM on the preceding step to improve amplitude in vertical oscillation of the COM which gives the athlete lift. Also, this increases gct which allows for more active force production in the vertical direction. The subsequent take-off should occur when the COM passes over the foot. The foot is not moving, the COM is and it doesn’t need the help of the hip other than stabilizing moments about the hip. If an athlete is fast enough and has enough elastic strength in his/her legs then this type of jump should produce some forward rotation which leads to a natural hitch kick.
The perspective you are bringing to the table is wrong. Your focus is on the foot, when it should be on the COM.
[quote author="crazyhops" date="1212786894"]wish i knew how to put pics on here like that, because there are many examples are jumper who do it..but my point was, not all do, and during Dwights lesser jumps, he doesnt do it nearly as well as his better ones…
just gotta do right click on the image, copy image adress
then paste the image adress in this way
[code]
[/code]
I have also noticed that some people plant their take off foot in a more vertical manner, and other do it like markov, with a bigger horizontal component in the movement[/quote]
The latter movement is more correct because of the decreased space in which the leg can operate once an athlete lowers their COM. This is were coaches tend to go in coaching the long jump. It’s not just about getting the athlete on the board, but also how they take-off and in all this is what makes up the approach. In practice I still move kids who are hitting the board, because they are reaching or short stepping the penultimate step which generate shorter jumps, because the athlete leaves the ground at or behind the board and not in front and it ultimately reduces speed and force production off the board as well as opposed to having take-off occur while the COM is in front of the board. The argument in this thread is about whether the action at the hip to produce this is active pulling or an active/reactive push. It should be an active/reactive push which would happen naturally with a proper approach and guidance to the board.
There are a ton of 19-21′ hs boy long jumpers who are actively pulling and snapping their legs or driving their knees and being cued on this when work on the approach and making it more consistent/faster would probably give them 2-3′ feet without even discussing how their takeoff happened or what they should when taking off.
I believe you are all refering to the same thing but you feel the athlete´s perception is different. It can be viewed as a pull and also as a push.
Actually, the ramifications of whether it is push or pull makes it quite different. The generation of forces about the hip from initial ground contact through take-off would be quite different.
dbandre,
My perspective is good and clearly I haven’t brought anything to the “table”… there is no table… this is an internet forum. That’s all I have to type to you (I’m too nice these days).
And I like Phillips approach… and what foot am I (which I wasn’t or have) refering too? Don’t make assumptions.
Is there a chance that there is a proportion between the maximum extension between the free leg and the jump leg? Mike Powell shows a huge amplitude in both ways, he is “kicking” very high with his front leg. (look here https://www.sporting-heroes.net/athletics-heroes/displayhero.asp?HeroID=6250). This is also noticeable in the original phillips images.
Could then giving cues on the amplitude of movement of the swing leg lead to complete extension in the back leg? (some kind of action-reaction)
dbandre,
My perspective is good and clearly I haven’t brought anything to the “table”… there is no table… this is an internet forum. That’s all I have to type to you (I’m too nice these days).
And I like Phillips approach… and what foot am I (which I wasn’t or have) refering too? Don’t make assumptions.
“table” is a metaphor and in this instance it fits and if you don’t like it so what.
What do you like about his approach then???
If your perspective is good then why focus on the foot when the action of the COM is of greater concern when analyzing a jump take-off. What happens on the board typically correlates to what happens on the previous step and so on till you get back to the start of the approach. If you want an active foot at take-off through active pulling by the hip then your focus is the foot. If you want reactive pushing (unwinding of the leg spring) then your focus is on the COM. In my world, the COM will rotate over the point of ground contact whether I like it or not when running into a jump, there isn’t any need for active pulling of the foot as that would reduce stiffness (elastic) capabilities of the leg.
I don’t cue an active push or pull, i work on approaches, accel/speed, and jumping at speed by progressively moving the athlete back in their approach throughout the season by increasing number of approach steps or adjustments to increases in accel/speed made by the athlete all in an effort to get them to take-off with as much speed while their COM is directly over their foot or in front of it. All my cues center around consistency, pattern development, speed, and a greater amplitude of oscillation from penultimate to take-off without compromising speed (this is were height in the jump comes from).
Is there a chance that there is a proportion between the maximum extension between the free leg and the jump leg? Mike Powell shows a huge amplitude in both ways, he is “kicking” very high with his front leg. (look here https://www.sporting-heroes.net/athletics-heroes/displayhero.asp?HeroID=6250). This is also noticeable in the original phillips images.
Could then giving cues on the amplitude of movement of the swing leg lead to complete extension in the back leg? (some kind of action-reaction)
It’s hard to tell from the picture, but what happens in the air is directly correlated to what happened on the ground in 90% of the cases. Track and field is all about action-reaction.
An active pull/ push has been cued throughout my development as a long jumper…i find it much easier to do from a shorter approach (less speed) but am now starting to get it from a full approach which im positive will lead to 8m jumps in the future…
I understand what your saying about the speed moving the COM over the foot etc, but from my experience, if i on purpose dont pull/push with my hips and glutes and just use to momentum/ speed the affect is totally different from when i do, and i just much less.
i beleive, great speed, tall hips and shoulders, very aggressive penultimate, and very active pull/ push and high kick back of take off leg with parellel knee drive aggresivley forward, is the perfect take off…
haha…writing that made me laugh…but thats what i beleive works…
This may sound stupid, but do you conciously try to tense up the gluteus while pulling? Or do you just try to let the leg relax and follow the movement?
Yes you tense up the glute to pull.
And I was just messin with your head dbandre about the table. (haha)
Crazyhops,
You are correct… that would be the perfect takeoff in a long jump for me too. It has led me to 7m jumps so far coming from 6m last year, but then again I’ve only been long jumping for one year (still got a lot to learn). My coach showed me the flip book of the world record long jump and what you’ve been saying is happening in the flip book as well.
“And the “active pull back with a stiff leg” was something taught by Pete Stanley, among others…and is obvious that it works, but is also hard to do. You have to pull down and back, and without a stiff leg, speed is lost, as you said.”
I have to agree with P.Stanley.Even if this “active pull back” doesn’t happen I find it to be a good cue.I try myself to “run over the board”.
For the last step to be really “active” and to pull back it would be a just another sprint step with a high knee lift.I think the knee lift should be a little bit lower in the last step otherwise it takes too much time to perform.The goal for most jumpers is a shorter and quicker final step (not B.Beamon..).I think the initial contact with the board should be only a little in front of the hip.Too much in front and speed and power is lost.
I have a feeling that the “active pull back take off” is coached more over here in Europe.
“I have a feeling that the “active pull back take off” is coached more over here in Europe.
Great topic! ”
Thanks yeah im pleased with all the responses it got…I feel it is coached more in europe for sure…Do you feel this may be becuase overall the American’s have much faster long jumpers and therefore their speed maybe over rides a good take off? and when some with speed does get a good take off like DP in 04,05,06 babooom!!! 8.60m?
I getting on a tangent here but do they teach low foot carriage for that final step in Europe?
I believe most follows the “active final step” theory. But our national long jump
coach a few years ago was teaching a low foot carriage for the final step.The reason
for this was to get a quicker step and to get vertical lift. This didn’t work for me and it messed up my technique real bad.I’m still trying to get back to my old technique.
“Thanks yeah im pleased with all the responses it got…I feel it is coached more in europe for sure…Do you feel this may be becuase overall the American’s have much faster long jumpers and therefore their speed maybe over rides a good take off? and when some with speed does get a good take off like DP in 04,05,06 babooom!!! 8.60m?”
Maybe someone with 11m/s+ speed can afford losing some (more) horizontal speed at the board
but have better vertical lift by breaking more at the board (inactive final step).This step can’t be long though.I don’t know..
Jumpers have jumped 8+ with both styles but I know if I try having an low final step I start breaking 2-3 steps before the board.Especially the penultimate is heel first with contact long infront of center of mass.(hope you understand..)
Look at howes low final step and low carriage in this video. He gets more vertical lift than when he usually does, when he uses a higher last step.
On the other hand is Tsatoumas, who clearly does the pulling action with a higher ultimate step.
Well, it´s obvious that with a low foot carriage the speed of the foot before contact is lower (shorter swing amplitude) than with a high one, thus a better horizontal speed maintainance.
Maybe it depends on the style of the sprinter as well. I looked at both of those videos and the guy you say has an active foot at contact is more of a pull style sprinter. The other guy doesnt open up in his running with a B-skip action thus is more of a pusher. Looks like if you are a pull type sprinter you pull at the board? Push type relies more on a passive takeoff? Also, in the US they do teach a low foot carriage on the final step, at least in the level II jumps course they did.
Maybe it depends on the style of the sprinter as well. I looked at both of those videos and the guy you say has an active foot at contact is more of a pull style sprinter. The other guy doesnt open up in his running with a B-skip action thus is more of a pusher. Looks like if you are a pull type sprinter you pull at the board? Push type relies more on a passive takeoff? Also, in the US they do teach a low foot carriage on the final step, at least in the level II jumps course they did.
You are right. Look at Saladino. He runs with lower knees, low foot carriage at take off. His foot doesnt seem to swing far back on the last step, little pulling action.
He also seems to run taller than the average howe.
Look in this video, yago lamela also does the pull action with high foot on last step. He also seems to run in a more pulling way. He also doesn´t create big vertical forces while running. In the same video pedroso appears, who seems to run taller. He swings his take off far back, recovers foot in a relatively low way but does the pull action. Huge jump for him.
In this video, robert crowther (australia) runs really tall, he doesnt seem to be a pull type sprinter. Low foot recovery but seems to have some pulling action at take off (and this is his best jump ever in that moment). He also extends the free leg far away, even though he uses the hang.
In this video, emmiyan´s 886. Runs really tall, low foot recovery but far back swing. I cant decide wether there is an active pulling action or not. Probably yes but not very noticeable.
Saladino deceives me the most, he runs tall, has low foot recovery with little amplitude of movement of take off foot and almost no pulling yet jumps that far.
It seems to me that the best looks like a mixture of tall running, big amplitude of movement of take off foot.
If the recovery is low and the amplitude is big then there inevitabily gonna a pulling action, although it also looks as if the cog just moves arround a very stiff leg which acts as a pole (what dbandre stated before i guess). It seems to me that those who recover their foot lower have less active pulling.
As it has been stated, the very noticeable pulling action is more viewable in those who are the pull-type sprinters. Perhaps because it doesn´t break abruptely the running rythm and amplitude to which the jumper is used to. Their penultimate also doesn´t seem to be very marked as a consequence of the lower running.
Everybody seems to pull actively in a way, some more than others. We can´t polarize and say you have to pull or not.
yeah i dont really think you can use Saladino as an example…many coaches are trying to figure him out, becuase his take off doesnt really seem that efficient but it really works for him…He is very fast, and must have super human rate of force development and elastic properties…
but also remember, his control and timing in the air is great and his landing is really excellent…
[quote author="tkaberna" date="1212862444"]Maybe it depends on the style of the sprinter as well. I looked at both of those videos and the guy you say has an active foot at contact is more of a pull style sprinter. The other guy doesnt open up in his running with a B-skip action thus is more of a pusher. Looks like if you are a pull type sprinter you pull at the board? Push type relies more on a passive takeoff? Also, in the US they do teach a low foot carriage on the final step, at least in the level II jumps course they did.
You are right. Look at Saladino. He runs with lower knees, low foot carriage at take off. His foot doesnt seem to swing far back on the last step, little pulling action.
He also seems to run taller than the average howe.
Look in this video, yago lamela also does the pull action with high foot on last step. He also seems to run in a more pulling way. He also doesn´t create big vertical forces while running. In the same video pedroso appears, who seems to run taller. He swings his take off far back, recovers foot in a relatively low way but does the pull action. Huge jump for him.
In this video, robert crowther (australia) runs really tall, he doesnt seem to be a pull type sprinter. Low foot recovery but seems to have some pulling action at take off (and this is his best jump ever in that moment). He also extends the free leg far away, even though he uses the hang.
In this video, emmiyan´s 886. Runs really tall, low foot recovery but far back swing. I cant decide wether there is an active pulling action or not. Probably yes but not very noticeable.
Saladino deceives me the most, he runs tall, has low foot recovery with little amplitude of movement of take off foot and almost no pulling yet jumps that far.
It seems to me that the best looks like a mixture of tall running, big amplitude of movement of take off foot.
If the recovery is low and the amplitude is big then there inevitabily gonna a pulling action, although it also looks as if the cog just moves arround a very stiff leg which acts as a pole (what dbandre stated before i guess). It seems to me that those who recover their foot lower have less active pulling.
As it has been stated, the very noticeable pulling action is more viewable in those who are the pull-type sprinters. Perhaps because it doesn´t break abruptely the running rythm and amplitude to which the jumper is used to. Their penultimate also doesn´t seem to be very marked as a consequence of the lower running.
Everybody seems to pull actively in a way, some more than others. We can´t polarize and say you have to pull or not.[/quote]
Actually, you have it backwards. A pull would require a shorter rom of the total leg on the front side and a push would require higher velocity and thus a greater ROM and higher knees. However you cannot judge based on these attributes alone as the lowering of the COM plays a role in how long your last 2 steps are as well as the perceived distance to the board by the athlete while making an attempt.
Also an active pull typically would show greater backside mechanics in the air, but rotation forces would immediately cause the athlete to cut short a greater rom in the legs on the backside as they would begin to hitch to counteract those forces. Also, it’s very unlikely that an athlete who actively pulls would have the excess forward rotation to begin with since their jumping speed would be slower. I can guarantee you the best jumpers in the world are all pushing.
the push comes after the pull…and look at stringfellow, he had amazing butt kick from his pull/push on take off and he hung!!!
sometimes, when i get this totally right at the moment i go head first into the pit, becuase i dont keep my shoulders back and hips forward, it isnt easy to do…
and, one of the top coaches from UK told me, you need to have very rangy(long/big) strides all the way to the baord with the last 2 shortening some, in order to be able to acheive the pull/push take off…
Now I am totally lost. Leaving the air mechanics aside,
A pull would require a shorter rom of the total leg on the front side and a push would require higher velocity and thus a greater ROM and higher knees.
When the foot plants ahead of you, you certainly have to pull your body over it. When you are already over the foot then you push. The problem is if that pulling is voluntary. Am I right?
Other way of viewing this is that the foot pulls in the air but in the very moment it strikes on the ground it starts pushing (look at the pedroso video), as if it hit the ground very much under the cog. Seeing the jumpers leg extended before touching the ground pretty much indicates this. It seems that they are pulling backwards/downwards till the groundstrike.
However you cannot judge based on these attributes alone as the lowering of the COM plays a role in how long your last 2 steps are as well as the perceived distance to the board by the athlete while making an attempt.
I actually believe that those b-skip runners have less lowering because they are coming from a shorter height and thus they will never seem to dip down because they are already running low! They have no height to loose!
Now I am totally lost. Leaving the air mechanics aside,
[QUOTE] A pull would require a shorter rom of the total leg on the front side and a push would require higher velocity and thus a greater ROM and higher knees.[/QUOTE]
When the foot plants ahead of you, you certainly have to pull your body over it. When you are already over the foot then you push. The problem is if that pulling is voluntary. Am I right?
Other way of viewing this is that the foot pulls in the air but in the very moment it strikes on the ground it starts pushing (look at the pedroso video), as if it hit the ground very much under the cog. Seeing the jumpers leg extended before touching the ground pretty much indicates this. It seems that they are pulling backwards/downwards till the groundstrike.
momentum is what carries your COM over your foot. Not your foot pulling your COM over the foot. That’s a huge moment arm and why action at the hip has to be mostly passive. Fast runners don’t run fast by pulling themselves along the ground and certainly not actively since the time from when the action is first processed to the end of the movement it would require almost .3s to take which is slightly longer than the GCT required by an 8m+ jumper.
[QUOTE]However you cannot judge based on these attributes alone as the lowering of the COM plays a role in how long your last 2 steps are as well as the perceived distance to the board by the athlete while making an attempt. [/QUOTE]
I actually believe that those b-skip runners have less lowering because they are coming from a shorter height and thus they will never seem to dip down because they are already running low! They have no height to loose!
They have less lowering of the COM because they are running faster. There has to be a change in amplitude of the COM between steps to take off.
Well, Chris Tomlinson who is coached by Pete Stanley, is one of the only jumpers i know of, that is atually faster at the board, than he is from 11m-1m. And during 11m-1m he is still very fast (10.6+m/s) and he emplys this technique very well indeed. I am sure there are others but i just dont have the biomach analysis of them.
You can be extremley fast and break considerably at the board if you dont get this pull/pull correct so once again i disagree.
True, the take occurs slightly ahead of COM, but don’t forget about momentum…the COM will still be moving forward at takeoff…Proper juming technique at takeoff involves the stabilization of the COM over the take off foot (amortization phase, hopefully kept as short as possible) followed by the forceful extension of the hip via the hamstrings in order to project the COM “up and forward” to maintain the forward motion.
An optimal performance would have a pushing action. Pulling/clawing is bad news, you spend too much time on the ground IMHO
Well, Chris Tomlinson who is coached by Pete Stanley, is one of the only jumpers i know of, that is atually faster at the board, than he is from 11m-1m. And during 11m-1m he is still very fast (10.6+m/s) and he emplys this technique very well indeed. I am sure there are others but i just dont have the biomach analysis of them.
You can be extremley fast and break considerably at the board if you dont get this pull/pull correct so once again i disagree.
keep disagreeing, it doesn’t matter to me if you we agree or not agree. I am telling you that pulling is less than optimal and stiffness cannot be maintained by pulling. If you consider a stepping action pulling then so be it.
Do an exercise for me, hold one of your thighs straight out in front of you. Keep the knee anlge around 90 degrees then flex the quadriceps to extend the leg/shank at the knee and discuss what happens.
Do another exercise for me (this one requires a partner) while lying on the floor extend at the hip while keeping you knee semi-rigid in kind of a straight line. Then have your partner assist you in extending your hip. Discuss what happens to whole your whole body in both instances.
I can tell with you with 100% accuracy what happens in both instances, but I’ll let you figure it out for yourself. Everyone is welcome to do these exercises and discuss what happens.
I was hoping that Mike or the other coaches on here would share their insights.
pulling with a stiff leg is more than possible, its correct, you pull with your glutes, through hamstring, maintaining a very tall position with as straight a leg as possible then follow thru as far back as possible with the take off leg.
i did it today during run thrus and was flying off the board…when i do not get it right, i do not come off the board as well…
i dont need to do your exercises to know this works…
pulling with a stiff leg is more than possible, its correct, you pull with your glutes, through hamstring, maintaining a very tall position with as straight a leg as possible then follow thru as far back as possible with the take off leg.
i did it today during run thrus and was flying off the board…when i do not get it right, i do not come off the board as well…
i dont need to do your exercises to know this works…
good example above…
Yes, a great example of pushing off the board. Despite what you or Coach Stanley say, Tomlinson pushed off the board in that jump. His COM is in front of his foot and he’s also not getting as great as height as you claim he does. That is an illusion caused by his long legs and his landing. His COM doesn’t show much amplitude in oscillation because of the speed of his COM jump takeoff.
As for the exercises, I am going to ruin it for everyone.
In exercise 1, the hip extends when you extend at the knee, a passive response. This same passive response occurs at ground contact to maintain stiffness. The knee is trying to extend at ground contact to maintain stiffness. since ground contact occurs at the feet it travels from each joint up the kinetic chain from arch to ankle to knee to hip.
In exercise 2, the knee flexes when you extend actively at the hip. Also, something of greater concern happens when you extend at the hip since the hip is not a hinge joint (neither is the knee really). You create a side to side rotation at the hip as well. All of these movements will be exaggerated when actively trying to pull at the hip for extension. You end up with someone basically who is groucho running.
Pull in the air, push on the ground? Well, it´s all one movement.
We have to take in count the tricks that our senses play to us.
Yes, it kind of works that way with our senses as each athlete perceives things differently and coaches who understand stand this will have many cues at their disposal. If a cue produces the desired effect then there is nothing wrong with it, but here in the states if you told a kid to pull then push 99 times out of a 100 his knees would bend excessively and he would jump high and not very far. It’s a push throughout ground contact to what should be a pull to recover the leg. Both of which should be natural and instinctive to any athlete.
look, think outside your box for a second…i may not be an 8m jumper, but i have jumped distance maxing at 7.80m at the moment and i know its there…its there, because i know when it isnt there…
The push CT gets, is from an active pull first…there are times where the timing is off and it doesnt work and the jump is less…
If Dwight Phillips was to say he actively pulls back before pushing forwards, would you still stay he wasnt doing it? if the answer is yes…then there isnt any point in you responding to this post…
look, think outside your box for a second…i may not be an 8m jumper, but i have jumped distance maxing at 7.80m at the moment and i know its there…its there, because i know when it isnt there…
The push CT gets, is from an active pull first…there are times where the timing is off and it doesnt work and the jump is less…
If Dwight Phillips was to say he actively pulls back before pushing forwards, would you still stay he wasnt doing it? if the answer is yes…then there isnt any point in you responding to this post…
I don’t care what an athlete says, I am giving you what mechanically is happening. An athlete shouldn’t be thinking about pushing or pulling regardless, especially one that jumps 8+ meters or even 7.5 meters. Like I said before what ever floats your boat. As I stated you are not pulling, Tomlinson is not pulling, definitely not in the 8.3ish jump video you showed and I haven’t seen a quality lj’er who first has action at the hip on ground contact then down the kinetic chain it’s impossible and actively pulling will produce a sideways rotation on takeoff.
BTW, I am not the person who has to get outside of my box. I don’t even coach elite level LJ’ers and I know a majority of those coaches out there who do would never say to pull. You are in Peter Stanley’s world and it works for you and that is fine, but don’t think for a second that a Pfaff, Tellez, or Schexnayder would be actively promoting pulling. They may use it for a cue in an athlete who internalizes things differently to produce the desired effect.
well, trust me im not thinking of that when im jumping, only when im working on it…same goes for others im sure…i feel a pull, i do a pull, its a very quick action, and isnt always easy to see…
im suprised you havent tried to do a quick pop up with this action…its very possible..
well, trust me im not thinking of that when im jumping, only when im working on it…same goes for others im sure…i feel a pull, i do a pull, its a very quick action, and isnt always easy to see…
im suprised you havent tried to do a quick pop up with this action…its very possible..
Omg, I don’t do pop ups and my athletes don’t do pop-ups. You’re insane the body and muscles just don’t work that way.
you coach jumpers? and you dont do pop ups….let me guess, you have a very special and technical term for a pop up…im so sorry im not on your level sir…
That’s correct, No, I don’t do pop-ups, I do shorter approach jumps in the beginning of the season, but nothing like a pop up. I fail to see the relevance of pop-ups as a specific training exercise for jumpers. There is no specificity in speed or distance attained and I have only so much time for exercises of a more general nature and generally those are acceleration drills, hurdle mobility, strength and power training including plyo’s, core training, and dynamic flexibility. It really gets down to this issue, motor learning is best acquired at the speed you are going to compete and in a quality rested state. If I place pop-ups in the beginning of the work out it will tire my athletes more than I want, if I place them at the end of the workout it’s eating into other ancillary/supplemental training to make them stronger where I don’t have make jumping cues that could interfere with something they learned and/or executed properly in practice. I can’t see putting them into a program on non-jumping days because they are jumps. If anything they would be in a plyo routine and i would rather do skips,hops, and bounds and nothing at the pit, but those are few and few between except for the early part of the training season.
I take it you have never heard or read anything on the transfer on training in sport. All that general work is necessary for developmental athletes and to build a base for maybe 2-4 weeks for athletes like myself and crazyhops, but once your past that point… it all comes down to special strength and speed strength exercises to have the greatest transfer of training.
I’m with crazyhops… I’m not on you’re level either.
I take it you have never heard or read anything on the transfer on training in sport. All that general work is necessary for developmental athletes and to build a base for maybe 2-4 weeks for athletes like myself and crazyhops, but once your past that point… it all comes down to special strength and speed strength exercises to have the greatest transfer of training.
I’m with crazyhops… I’m not on you’re level either.
That would mean to have the greatest transfer effect they have be as specific as possible and long jumping requires quality long jump attempts built around a solid approach. My athletes do enough general work as I pointed out. It’s a preference of mine not having them in my training plan, because I don’t have a place I would feel comfortable putting them. I want my athletes taking as many quality jumps as they can on a jumping day. The base I look to build is acceleration and elastic strength, something pop-ups don’t provide in my opinion.
ok for real…half of that dbandre was utter bullshit…i cant beleive i just read that…
and also, all the damn education in the world doesn’t mean anything when your too stuck on yourself to open your mind a little to something other than what you think …
the only reason i mentioned pop ups was so YOU could try and see what i was saying…and of course you had to take it to some exstreme level the way only you can…half of what you say in unecessery for this topic…since when was this about your training system? ? ?
with every post you try to convey your intelligance so how did you not figure out that i clearly meant a short jump for you to try it out…jeeeeeeeesus
Long/triple jumper no pop ups??? Fundamentals do not change to accomodate distance jumped. Good technique is good technique @ 5.00 meters or @ 8.00 meters.
yeah i agree with that novice…i understand that the best transfer is done at speed…BUT, thats only possible then when full approach full speed jumps are done…and that isnt practical. You have to learn position etc…even the very best long jumpers do slow pop ups to work on very specific things, like feeling, alignment, etc etc…
and ive never heard of some pop ups tiring athletes out too much before training…
Pull in the air, push on the ground? Well, it´s all one movement.
We have to take in count the tricks that our senses play to us.
Interesting discussion.
Question to all: Where (between flight following penult ground release and toeoff of takeoff) do you place the following, impulse? isometric contractions?
Randy uses “Push Pull Plant” as descriptors of the last 3 steps. His “plant” is cued as “push into the ground, and not, push off the ground” This being consistent with the recent Weyland, Bosch and as far back as Hay. Since Mike still holds the record this may end the debate?
Also, keep in mind that the C of M is not humanly viewed from trackside, in the moment. So watch the hip – pelvic orientation / travel. Plant grounds “slightly” ahead (of c of m) as observed at the hip/pelvis. Vertical change in same not occurring before it passes over the plant foot. Body displaces well past the plant foot before ground release. The preceding paragraph is an amalgam of Boo, Randy and others.
[quote author="aivala" date="1213051009"]Pull in the air, push on the ground? Well, it´s all one movement.
We have to take in count the tricks that our senses play to us.
Interesting discussion.
Question to all: Where (between flight following penult ground release and toeoff of takeoff) do you place the following, impulse? isometric contractions?[/quote]
Impulse would be during ground contact and the integration of forces on the ground if you placed a force plate under the takeoff. Basically, impulse is force x duration and it translates to momentum and in this instance momentum (since velocity is vector) is how far you are going to travel which is dictated on the board by the magnitude and direction of velocity. To create an impulse one must generate/return as much force as possible in the fraction of a second that the foot is in contact with the board. Trying to keep the foot on the ground as long as possible would only diminish elastic energy return meaning a jumper would have to generate most if not all of his or her force concentrically losing all benefit from a stretch shortening cycle.
I don’t know if you wish to include co-contractions along with isometric contractions. If you do they help provide the elastic strength to maintain stiffness during ground contact, but they play a role in the stretch shortening cycle as mentioned above. I would say these contractions occur just before ground contact through just after takeoff.
My question back to you is do you consider co-contractions and isometric contractions as playing a passive role? To me that means they are more reflex/proprioceptive oriented as opposed to mental change. I can see were some aspects of long jumping for beginners in the young children age groups 6-10 years of age at the event may be actively coordinating muscles, but I just can’t see it with jumpers going at least 8-9 m/s to the board.
Long/triple jumper no pop ups??? Fundamentals do not change to accomodate distance jumped. Good technique is good technique @ 5.00 meters or @ 8.00 meters.
Sure it does change. Here’s why the COM (CFKA, I use hips as my guidance point for COM displacement) in 3-4 step approach is entirely different than 10 or 12 step approach. Body lean from the initial acceleration is different and amount of time spent on the ground is different because the percentage of energy contribution from elastic and concentric sources used to jump 3m to 5m is entirely different. Also, the term pop-ups invokes the mental idea of jumping high, not jumping far.
I have girls ranging from low 16’s to low 18’s and the few boys I work with are all over 19′ some working on breaking 21′ before their 16th birthday and not a single pop-up in my practices. Heck I don’t even do elevated jumps and get athletes to land on their rear through their foot touchdowns.
WOW. Don’t know where to start. I didn’t have time to answer until now, and I just checked this thing out and it’s got 6 pages. I’ll post more tomorrow but here’s some quick thoughts without really reading the preceding posts:
*I suspect (without really reading through) that much of this debate could be an issue of semantics. After I’ve read the posts tomorrow, I’ll re-address this point.
*I think it’s a little oversimplified to call the takeoff a push or a pull. The quads must push (albeit mainly isometrically) to maintain leg stiffness and the hams and glutes pull the leg forcefully in to hip extension. With this said, I think from a purely movement perspective, the takeoff is mostly a pulling action where the body is pulled in front of the support foot by a primarily straight leg.
*Regarding height, if I’ve got a 6m-7.4m athlete, I just emphasize speed at takeoff. I really don’t give 2 craps about takeoff height. Anyone who’s seen my dec from this past year can clearly see this. The guy has jumped about 7.2 and rarely gets much height to speak of. I’ve seen him have fouls out around 7.35-7.40 using a similarly flat takeoff. On the other hand, if I want someone to jump 7.5+ there must be a little more emphasis on the vertical component at takeoff in my experience.
*I never cue push or pull. While I’ve talked to Dan, Boo, and Randy extensively about this, only Randy cues a pull and it isn’t how most people understand it. Dan and Boo would NEVER teach a pulling motion in their cueing systems.
*When you look at slomo of athletes on the takeoff it appears they’re actively pulling in the air prior to the takeoff foot hitting the ground but I really don’t think they are. This is a natural action that occurs on EVERY running stride not just the takeoff. The leg straightens and is brought under the body prior to contact. This occurs due to the fact that the knee will naturally extend as the hip is aggressively extended.
I’m so proud of this thread…Well done crazyhops!!!
Well, coaches back home also que it. I will try to get a quote from one of them about and post it on here….
With this said, I think from a purely movement perspective, the takeoff is mostly a pulling action where the body is pulled in front of the support foot by a primarily straight leg.
this is totally what i was saying somewhere in this jungle of a post…
by the way Mike, is that picture supposed to be Lao Tzu? or some other pretty smart man?
Impulse would be during ground contact and the integration of forces on the ground if you placed a force plate under the takeoff. Basically, impulse is force x duration and it translates to momentum and in this instance momentum (since velocity is vector) is how far you are going to travel which is dictated on the board by the magnitude and direction of velocity. To create an impulse one must generate/return as much force as possible in the fraction of a second that the foot is in contact with the board. Trying to keep the foot on the ground as long as possible would only diminish elastic energy return meaning a jumper would have to generate most if not all of his or her force concentrically losing all benefit from a stretch shortening cycle.
I don’t know if you wish to include co-contractions along with isometric contractions. If you do they help provide the elastic strength to maintain stiffness during ground contact, but they play a role in the stretch shortening cycle as mentioned above. I would say these contractions occur just before ground contact through just after takeoff.
My question back to you is do you consider co-contractions and isometric contractions as playing a passive role? To me that means they are more reflex/proprioceptive oriented as opposed to mental change. I can see were some aspects of long jumping for beginners in the young children age groups 6-10 years of age at the event may be actively coordinating muscles, but I just can’t see it with jumpers going at least 8-9 m/s to the board.
Mike’s post beats me to the point. Cue-ing action on the board is not such a good idea I’d say. Pre-board to enhance board thru ground release, yes.
I’d avoid calling Co-Con & Iso “passive” I think I understand what you mean but perhaps not the best choice of word?
I am all about pre-contact stiffness, Isometric, Eccentric, Impulse. Concentric is not a big thing for me. Elastics are dependent on what precedes the resulting response. Concentric is where I’d be more inclined to use the word “passive” as regards human intent / imput.
I use posture/alignment/free limb position pre-board and speak to improving the setup for board contact. I then watch/worry mainly from grounding of the plant thru mid-support. Long time ago and not in horizontals I started viewing this as entry angle’s effects on exit angles. I know that its not a pure reference but that beginning led me to focus more on the first half on board contact and then increasingly to setup/positions/”muscular status” immediately prior to board contact. My mantra of late has been “Fix The Right Problem” and there is an article of mine published on a few sites outside of the US that speaks to this. (Mike, didnt offer to you as Corn has it first)
While the average 15-17′ HS girl or 19-21 ft boy may “look” bad off the board, they have more to gain and can facilitate much of the cure for their “bad off the board” from fixing in order: runup, penult, entry to board. It’s not just limited to HS kids. Not long ago, I had to fill in for a friend and coach his LJ athlete in a meet. While lots was not as I would have it, the athlete had a huge “engine”. So I addressed one thing, the penult. It gave the most value by bringing speed thru to plant, and a resulting change to projection off the board via having lowered the C of M previously. “Passive” instruction was that the words: penult, low, flat… were not used in warmup or between jumps. Pelvic tilt / forward lean was preventing a better penult. Addressing the entry to penult to some degree fixed the penult or at least enabled the athlete to do what they knew to do but were previously unable to. Hense “Fix the Right Problem” The athlete went from a low seed entering the comp, to a win and a $$$ payday.
Lastly, while I dont have a total ban on them I am not a big user/believer in popup/short approach jumps. RFD, Spatial/Timing cues, etc, are off from desired in a full on effort.
The following picture is from John Moffit’s pr 8.47m jump at the 2004 Olympics (silver medal). Dwight was first in this competition but I didn’t have his jump on the computer I made this on (although I do have it). Thought it would be relevant to the discussion. Note that this jump was uncharacteristic for John in a couple ways…he lowers too early and sticks his takeoff foot out more than usual. He also throws his head back more than usual.
thats a great pic…if you could do that with Dwights Jump when you get a chance that would be awesome to have…
i think his range at take off was great, you say unusual for him, but it was his best ever jump and get great kick back with his take off leg. I remember this jump, he really flew off the baord..
Not long ago, I had to fill in for a friend and coach his LJ athlete in a meet. While lots was not as I would have it, the athlete had a huge “engine”. So I addressed one thing, the penult. It gave the most value by bringing speed thru to plant, and a resulting change to projection off the board via having lowered the C of M previously. “Passive” instruction was that the words: penult, low, flat… were not used in warmup or between jumps. Pelvic tilt / forward lean was preventing a better penult. Addressing the entry to penult to some degree fixed the penult or at least enabled the athlete to do what they knew to do but were previously unable to. Hense “Fix the Right Problem” The athlete went from a low seed entering the comp, to a win and a $$$ payday.
Can you expand on this? I like story time. What do you mean by ‘passive instruction was that the words penult, low, flat… were not used in warmup or between jumps’?
I figured that since I missed out on so much of this discussion that it would be easier to address general points as I go through rather than to get in to specific discussions on each previous point. Here’s a random collection of thoughts from my reading:
*I think if you hit a high knee position, one could think push and one could think pull and the outcome (at least in appearance) would be exactly the same. This is because of what I mentioned in one of my previous points….if you actively extend the thigh (either through the quad dominant push cue or the glute dominant pull cue) the knee joint will open and you’ll get the appearance of a pull. As I mentioned before I’m not sure it’s an active pawing at the ground though. From a muscular action standpoint, I actually prefer to think “accelerate the thigh down” rather than pull. This seems to be a more global cue that produces the desired affect when necessary.
*Takeoff angle is determined by position of COM (roughly hips) at one point (typically while the foot is still on the ground) to the position of the COM later in the movement (typically when the athlete has left the ground).
*In all horizontal jumps (and the throws), the most important thing is the takeoff velocity. In fact, this explains 90-95% of the outcome of the performance. Takeoff (or release angle) is MUCH less important and in many events is only as important as the effect that it has on takeoff (or release) velocity. This is because there’s an inverse relationship between takeoff (or release) velocity and takeoff (or release) angle. Basically the higher you jump or throw the lower the velocity will be. Now, there’s obviously some ideal balance here but IMO (backed by plenty of research…much of which is on this site), takeoff (or release) velocity is the most important factor. With this in mind, let’s examine the next couple points…
*In a running jump for preceded by a fast approach (like the jumps in TnF), the takeoff leg needs to be placed in front of the COM to have an effective takeoff. The further the leg is placed in front of the COM the greater the opportunity for height will be (assuming the leg maintains stiffness). This is why you see that the best HJers place the foot WAY in front of the COM at takeoff (because the goal is to jump high), LJers place the foot in front of the COM to a lesser degree, and good TJers minimize the placement of the foot in front of the COM on the hop takeoff (so they can be relatively low takeoff angle and preserve velocity).
*There’s a tradeoff between putting the foot in front of the body though. Put it too far in front and it can cause braking, excessive forward rotation, more height than is necessary. The best jumpers can put the foot out in front of the body and not decelerate very much on either the setup to do so or the resulting braking forces at takeoff foot touchdown.
Just a quick question. I would think stiffness starts from the ground up through the COM on ground contact. The arch collapses before the ankle moves, the ankle moves before the knee does, and the knee moves before the hip. So why would the hip be active in any role than stabilizing the movement structure?
but the guys who jump 7.70-8m from 10m/s, and there are quite a few of them…what is their key attribute if it isnt speed…
whats the second most important thing? and is that more easily developed than speed?
i have the very same question lol
For example i can get about 5.9m from a 6-step (contact) approach which i was told is enough to jump about 7m, but I can barely run at 10m/s if at all, should I concentrate in height more than other people or what?
well, i suggest always focussing on speed, espcially until you can run around 10.5m/s anyway…
but, i also haev to say something in response about Mikes decathalete…he does jump very flat and most of the time jumps around 6.80m with that…i was there when he jumped 7.17m and the second he took off, i said to another army guy, “thats a PB”, and i was behind the pit, so i couldnt view the distance…but it was obvious because on that jump, he did get height…
also. i uderstand what your saying when you say jumpers around 6.50-7m, probaly dont NEED height to do it…but i disagree that it shouldnt be a focus of theirs…speed is always a focus…but you should always try to get height from whatever speed you have…this i beleive is one of the key points when jumping from shorter approaches and knowing when you are able to move back also…
if you jump from 12 strides, and get good height, good take off angle and good technique then you are able to move back to 14…if you get to 14 and can not get any height at all from that speed, then move back to 12 until you are able to do it better…
If you can jump 7m with no height at all becuase your fast…then why would you not stress height in training etc…this would be totally under achieving, height is a valuable aspect to being a good long jumper…
The problem is that one focuses on speed during the approach till the last steps and this way the horizontal component of the jump gets ready, and then at the table the only focus should be adding the vertical component. The addition of big vertical and horizontal vectors should give a big jump, if one limits one of the vectors then the jumps is going to be limited.
The issue that’s being overlooked is that you can’t have your cake and eat it too. At least not unless you’re VERY special or get something very right. That is, takeoff velocity and takeoff angle are interdependent. They are inextricably linked in an inverse relationship. If one goes up the other goes down. This has been repeatedly been proven by research on elites and non-elites. In the LJ, the mathematically optimal takeoff angle is about 44 degrees. In reality it’s less than half that. This is because the human body doesn’t work like a perfect machine. We can’t just dial up one thing and not expect it to have an affect on another related thing. So with the key point of velocity being BY FAR the most important factor (proven both by projectile motion mathematics and current research on the subject), the goal then is to a takeoff angle that is low enough to still permit very high takeoff velocities but high enough to still permit elite (or whatever level we’re talking about) performances.
Here’s some related homework on this and other topics discussed in this thread so far from the article database:
Optimum Angles of Projection in the Throws and Jumps[/url]
The EMG Activity and Mechanics of the Running Jump as a Function of Takeoff Angle[/url]
The Takeoff in the Long Jump and Other Running Jumps[/url]
Optimum Take-off Techniques and Muscle Design for Long Jump[/url]
Biomechanical Analysis of Long Jump at the World Athletic Championships Athens, 1997[/url]
but, i also haev to say something in response about Mikes decathalete…he does jump very flat and most of the time jumps around 6.80m with that…i was there when he jumped 7.17m and the second he took off, i said to another army guy, “thats a PB”, and i was behind the pit, so i couldnt view the distance…but it was obvious because on that jump, he did get height…
The time you saw was no doubt uncharacteristicly high on the takeoff angle BUT it was also achieved on the elevated Mondo runway of the NYC Armory (which makes it easier to do that if you are bouncy on the last couple steps of the run) AND he’s actually jumped that exact distance 2 other times with an angle as flat as a pancake. The 7.3x foul he had at IC4As was actually super flat. What does that show…that you can do it both ways I guess, but for most people, especially at his level speed is going to be the top contributor to performance in my opinion.
One of the articles I posted above actually examines the difference between Powell and Lewis. Lewis took off around 18 degrees and on his big jump Powell was around 23. It was really unusual that Powell was able to do that though….almost like he got it perfect on many levels (which I suppose is usually a given if you’re going to set a WR). Lewis was able to reproduce (basically) his jump on multiple occasions before and after.
also. i uderstand what your saying when you say jumpers around 6.50-7m, probaly dont NEED height to do it…but i disagree that it shouldnt be a focus of theirs…speed is always a focus…but you should always try to get height from whatever speed you have…this i beleive is one of the key points when jumping from shorter approaches and knowing when you are able to move back also…
if you jump from 12 strides, and get good height, good take off angle and good technique then you are able to move back to 14…if you get to 14 and can not get any height at all from that speed, then move back to 12 until you are able to do it better…
To me, this is more of a physical capacity issue than a real technical issue. Or more accurately, it’s a technical issue limited by physical capacity. Because of the things I mentioned in my previous post (interdependence of the two variables) and some of the previously discussed issues (muscle contractions, physiology, etc), if the eccentric power is not there at takeoff, attempting to get big launch angles with big speed is just going to mean a mushy takeoff leg and huge losses of speed.
Just a quick question. I would think stiffness starts from the ground up through the COM on ground contact. The arch collapses before the ankle moves, the ankle moves before the knee does, and the knee moves before the hip. So why would the hip be active in any role than stabilizing the movement structure?
Co-contraction takes place prior to ground contact to increase stiffness in preparation for impact. This is actually present in walking, jogging, running, sprinting, etc. At best this is a subconscious higher brain driven activity with much neuromodulation taking place without the athlete even being aware of it. It would seem that one could certainly be trained to make these things more efficient by enhancing SSC, eccentric power, neural conduction, lessening contractile thresholds, etc.
One thing that I’ve thought for a long time that Dwight Phillips and maybe even Powell might be classic examples of is the following-
Maybe what we’re seeing in many of the top jumpers best jumps really isn’t optimal takeoff mechanics. Maybe we’re seeing the outcome of an approach velocity that is so high that they can’t do anything BUT takeoff with these less than ideal mechanics (due to the physical capacity issues I mentioned previously). BUT in the battle between having obscene takeoff velocities with a less than optimal takeoff mechanics OR having good but not great takeoff velocities with an optimal takeoff mechanics, the first option will win any day of the week.
Kind of a confusing concept but hopefully I explained what I’m trying to say clearly.
Wanted to add one more thing while I was on here posting to myself…
It’s my understanding that most European coaches do not teach an aggressive penultimate in the way that U.S. coaches do. It’s more of a thing where they try to stay tall as long as possible and don’t bother lowering on the penultimate.
Wanted to add one more thing while I was on here posting to myself…
It’s my understanding that most European coaches do not teach an aggressive penultimate in the way that U.S. coaches do. It’s more of a thing where they try to stay tall as long as possible and don’t bother lowering on the penultimate.
I would say that’s absolutely correct. Most coaches I’ve worked with say that the lowering
needed comes naturally just by running over the penultimate.If you try to lower you lower too much and speed and power is lost.
It came as a big surprise to me listening to an inteview by boo schexnayder describing the penultimate as an inactive,yielding step (athleticscoaching.ca). I have never heard the penultimate step explained that way over here. Please correct me if I misunderstood his explanation!
yeah that is true…totally something ive picked up on in the USA…i was also told to stay very tall and not lower. But also, Saladino’s coach says the same thing. He said, having tall hips and a tall shoulders, speed and good rhythm is most important during the run and take off…
Wanted to add one more thing while I was on here posting to myself…
It’s my understanding that most European coaches do not teach an aggressive penultimate in the way that U.S. coaches do. It’s more of a thing where they try to stay tall as long as possible and don’t bother lowering on the penultimate.
How do you marry this theory to what I would guess are the approach velocities of Euros vs. US or others?
Mechanical advantage gained from posture as well its as centering C of M for more positive effect at TO makes some sense. “Not” teaching to the penult is a long way from someone not employing one to some degree, I’d say. Sounds a bit like comparing Euro to US LJ is like viewing female vs male hurdlers. In that the women dont have to elevate to manage the 30″ whereas the male has to to clear the 42″‘s The degree that the male hurdler’s pre-barrier step, grounds ahead of his C of M being tied to horizontal energy available to convert (in part) to vertical, and his morphology (stature or lack thereof)
The Powell TO angle has been discussed previously. The off-center penult I still believe, did 2 things: Got him lower than a traditional penult thus positive affect to TO angle, and it also meant less deceleration into plant thus equalizing the speed advantage Carl had. Picture the hips passing by the penult, less obstructed (as penult was off-center) Everyone says that while Carl was “faster” that they were relatively close – speedwise at the board. Yeah, but the above is somewhere in how Mike made up the difference.
Also, the article by Hay that you, me & Todd discussed years back, is perhaps the most valuable to the current line of discussion.
if a guy runs 11m/s over 11m-1m and takes off at 9.8m/s
and another guy runs 10m/s over 11m-1m but doesnt lose any speed at take off
which one has the advantage?
if its the latter, then is there no point in the first guy being so fast on the runway?
You’re right. It’s the second guy. The parabola of the flight (which determines how far they go) is determined by the instantaneous velocity at the moment of takeoff. This was one of the reasons (in addition to the bigger projection angle) that Powell could compete with Lewis (who had a higher top end). One could argue though that Lewis had such a buffer of speed that he could intentionally throttle back an extra 1-2% more than his competitors and as a result always produce more mechanically sound takeoffs too (since it’s generally harder to set up an effective takeoff the faster one goes).
its amazing though, i have numbers from pro meets with guys taking off at 10.5m/s and jumping 8m and guys losing a metre per second at the board, taking off at 9.8m/s and still jumping 8m. Its an amazing event…i think whatever speed you have as long as its around 10m/s, just work work work at your take off and power and you can jump 8m…
its amazing though, i have numbers from pro meets with guys taking off at 10.5m/s and jumping 8m and guys losing a metre per second at the board, taking off at 9.8m/s and still jumping 8m. Its an amazing event…i think whatever speed you have as long as its around 10m/s, just work work work at your take off and power and you can jump 8m…
I think the discrepancy is attributable to a couple things (in rough order):
*How effectively the person lands. Someone who controls rotation in flight and lands very effectively can actually get a mark beyond what they’ve displaced their COM in flight. Likewise, an athlete could land like Marion Jones due to uncontrolled rotations and get a mark that is actually much less than what the projectile motion equations would suggest.
*Variations in takeoff angle.
*Differences in how far the hips are in front of the takeoff foot at the moment of takeoff. It isn’t until the foot leaves the ground that the projectile motion parameters come in to play SOOOO if someone who had a 1.5m inseam jumped against someone who had a 1m inseam the person with the larger inseam would have a fairly sizable advantage before they even left the ground because they could move their hips further in front of the takeoff foot. This inseam advantage would also have an effect on my first point.
*Minor variations between jumpers of the center of mass at takeoff.
I have a theory that is more or less related to this topic. In triple jumping, speed conservation depends from ground contact time. I believe that the gct is determined by the time that it takes to the free leg to swing arround the support leg. For example, if you look at jonathan edwards, his free leg is moving forward really fast before and way before ground contact. When his foot touches the ground, his free foot is already (in an horizontal plane) at almost the same level of the support foot and then travels really quickly forwards, allowing him to skip forwards really fast. This is really evident in his best jumps. Jumpers who are less efficient conserving speed clearly hit the ground whith their free legs way back, so that it has to travel forward while the other foot is planted, wasting plenty of time. So, should one emphasize on the free leg instead on the support leg? I find this method to be extremelly successfull in bounding, although one problem that arises is some kind of huge torque on the body when the contact leg doesn´t compensate the swing forces.
I find this really interesting because I have had the best results while long jumping whenever I really focused on “kicking” / “extending” my free leg in front of me.
I asked coach Schexnayder your question about the free leg because it got me to thinking that there may be some validity to the question and his answer was “No, it needs to be behind the other in order to set up the correct timing of the swing leg.” When teaching triple jump I do emphasize the free leg mechanics much more than the support leg because I believe that if you jump correctly your support leg comes through naturally from the pre-stretch and elastic responses you create while jumping. Hopefully it makes some sense.
Well put, the support leg passing close to the butt is simply a form of feedback. One does not have to create it artifically. Much like backside mechanics in sprinting it can help determine what how much force was applied to the track vertical vs. horizontal. Thanks tkaberna.
totally disagree…the butt kick does not happen naturally for many many many many jumpers that i watch all the time…it isnt something that everyone does when they long jump. But it is a noticable difference between MOST of the very elite guys compared to the average…
Just a quick question. I would think stiffness starts from the ground up through the COM on ground contact. The arch collapses before the ankle moves, the ankle moves before the knee does, and the knee moves before the hip. So why would the hip be active in any role than stabilizing the movement structure?
Co-contraction takes place prior to ground contact to increase stiffness in preparation for impact. This is actually present in walking, jogging, running, sprinting, etc. At best this is a subconscious higher brain driven activity with much neuromodulation taking place without the athlete even being aware of it. It would seem that one could certainly be trained to make these things more efficient by enhancing SSC, eccentric power, neural conduction, lessening contractile thresholds, etc.[/quote]
By subconscious higher brain driven activity are you possibly referring to spinal driven activity as well. I know some like to keep the brain and spinal cord separate like myself and others think of them as one whole.
I understand that co-contraction and isometric contractions take place prior to GC, but even then all the components of stiffness would require feedback during GC to maintain system stability for the next desired action.
It is in reference to both jumps. My understanding of he backside mechanics in both the triple jump, long jump, and sprints for that matter is that for the majority of cases it is a reflex action. This reflex allows the teacher an opportunity to determine direction of forces applied to the ground. If the athlete pushes vertical hard and fast enough the take off leg will have a propensity to swing much closer to the “butt” …it is not the other way round. Meaning if an individual has enough flexibility to swing they foot close to the “butt” after take off equates an adequate force application in the desired direction…it may look pretty but it doesn’t work.
Mike in reference to the pull, i am interested in understanding how one effects a pull through the long axis of the torso.
It is in reference to both jumps. My understanding of he backside mechanics in both the triple jump, long jump, and sprints for that matter is that for the majority of cases it is a reflex action. This reflex allows the teacher an opportunity to determine direction of forces applied to the ground. If the athlete pushes vertical hard and fast enough the take off leg will have a propensity to swing much closer to the “butt” …it is not the other way round. Meaning if an individual has enough flexibility to swing they foot close to the “butt” after take off equates an adequate force application in the desired direction…it may look pretty but it doesn’t work.
I agree with whole-heartedly. I can’t count the number of times people comment on how pretty and efficient someone looks running, jumping, or throwing and only to see that person finish near the bottom because their movements were so slow.
it would be good if this thread was still called Dwight Phillips…hate to say i told you so, but he is a different jumper now compared to 2004. Different coach? age? unlucky? what do you all think…
its amazing, becuase i foul alot…as you all know…and Dwight used to foul ALOT…and i know a coach who lives near me who was coached under Tellez in the 80’s and he keeps telling me that Tellez was a master when it came to not fouling etc…
well, look at Dwight now, he hardly fouls at all anymore (9 straight legal jumps at trials)…BUT, doesnt jump or run the same way either..just crazyness…all these athletes that wins major then switches coaches…
Poor judgement by Dwight. His prep towards the trial was different from years past. Typically, he has a number of 100s & 60s under his belt.Some times even early rounds of the OT 100. This is speculation, it could be other factors.
Isnt Boo a product of Tellez? Who are the two athletes of Boos? Also, how old is Dwight now? Thanks.
Boo was heavily influenced by Dan Pfaff, since Boo was a HS coach in Louisiana while Dan was coaching field events at LSU. Dan was mentored by Tellez and was a GA at Houston while he did his Master’s degree. Dan speaks extrememly highly of Tellez and while I don’t think the mechanics he teaches are much different, his training plans do not resemble much of what Tellez was doing back in the Santa Monica Track Club days. Boo’s training plans are similar to Dan’s system with some of his own evolution over time.
Boo does coach Miguel Pate and Brian Johnson usually at the CAP Elite training center in Baton Rouge.
Travell is with Powell as best as I know and Powell was coached by Huntington who uses the push-pull-plant cue extensively (if he didn’t coin it himself). I actually ran in to Randy 2 days ago but didn’t have the time to ask him about it.
On a related note, I spoke with Boo at length today about many things and we spent some time going over some video of Pate and Brian Johnson. He doesn’t want the foot more than about 8 inches in front of the hips at takeoff and he actually does like some quad action at takeoff. With Pate and Johnson added to the list of Davis and Moffit (04 OG Silver) Boo practically has a monopoly on U.S. long jump Olympians with his athletes taking 4 of the 6 spots on the last two Olympiads. I’m not aware of any other jumps coach in U.S. history who has had this stranglehold on the event.
With some of the talk about differences in Russian jumping technique, I thought I would add some of the thoughts of Anatoly Golubtsov, from the book ‘The Preparation of High Class Sportsmen in Horizontal Jumps.’ Golubtsov, a Ukrainian and former USSR coach, has worked with numerous world class jumpers such as Inessa Kravets and Francoise M’Bango. These are my interpretations of what he is trying to get across, Russian translations can be difficult to interpret.
– Do not attempt to drive the foot into the ground actively, it takes place at the expense of gravity and the elasticity of the muscles. Any additional operations will decrease the reactivity of the muscles and decrease the speed of movement
– The accent on powerful takeoff is the limiting factor at the end of the run-up, it results in a loss of speed before takeoff and negatively influences the result of the jump
– Before the pushing (takeoff) leg ground contact, the free leg is bending with a swing upwards and forwards. The quickness of the takeoff depends on the speed and movement direction of the free leg. The swing leg is considerable bent at the knee. This increases the speed of movement and provides a fast takeout of the hip up and forwards
– The takeoff leg is like a bar contacting on the whole foot and rolling on the full foot. Concentrate on simultaneous full-foot contact, rolling over the foot.
– There is no need to put any special emphasis on takeoff angle. This cannot be constant, it changes for the same athlete depending on his/her physical and mental condition.
– Most important is skill of the run and then transfer it slightly into the jump, there is no need to waste time training far fetched techniques
-If all phases of the jump are carried out properly, the imperceptible transition of run-up into the jump without accentuated repulsing and visible exertion is reached. This is a sign of great skill.
– In a correct takeoff the jumper should feel fast moving forward as though there is an additional increase in speed. The faster the bending of the free leg, the stronger and faster the resulting action. The immediate stop of the free leg and arms decreases the moment of inertia in the takeoff leg, this decreases the load on the muscles
Regarding the emphasis on the upwards swing of the free leg, I’ve read similar comments from Igor Ter-Ovanesyan who had said that ‘the jumper should focus on the loose, upward drive generated by the swing of the free leg.’ He also says that concentration on the act of planting the takeoff leg on the board makes the last strides slow.’
When I think of these descriptions, within the current jumpers, I think Kotova who has very little lowering in her penultimate, in fact it’s hard to tell when her takeoff is even coming. Chistyakova was also quite similar.
So at least these two Russians don’t place much of an emphasis on lowering in the penultimate or pulling on the board, just carrying speed through the takeoff and a big swing of the free leg to get lift. The Russian women are ridiculously strong in the long jump nowadays with 6 of the top 10 in the world. The men not so much. Is it possible this style is more suitable to women, especially lightly built women like the majority of the Russian jumpers?
I’ll write more when I have more time but at the clinic my company put on today, Tom Tellez spoke at length AGAINST pulling back at the board. In fact, it was the focal point of his presentation on long jump takeoff mechanics.
I’ll write more when I have more time but at the clinic my company put on today, Tom Tellez spoke at length AGAINST pulling back at the board. In fact, it was the focal point of his presentation on long jump takeoff mechanics.
It would have been interesting if he talked about what happened to Phillips.
I’m not familiar with the cue Push-Pull-Plant. Could someone who is familiar with Randy Huntington or Mike Powell explain what you are trying to push, pull and plant?
im not familiar with either, but from this i’m taking away, PUSH with the penultimate, PULL with the take off leg down and back and PLANT the take off leg continuing in a down and backwards motion…
I have a new thought about this issue, an analogy to running: when you sprint at full speed you don´t think about pushing, you fucus on your knees or anything that moves forwards in your body. Triple extension should follow. The backwards push at full speed happens too fast and when you try to push you run slower. Normally any kind of backwards leg movement cue is avoided while sprinting, isn´t it? When you are running that fast thinking about something or trying to force something also slows you down. When you are trying to reduce ground contact times it isn´t really that helpful to cue on something that at high speed sprinting is known that slows one down.
Then, why should someone try to follow a cue that would contradict any other type of cues given for high speed sprinting? Why wouldn´t one just focus on the free leg swing, which is analog to the perception of full speed sprinting?
You can get extra momentum from this and a greater rom (see the original philips images posted by crazyhops). Then this would help a lot on those athletes who aren´t able to extend completely from the take off and who are cued to open up in the air like a scissor or sthg like that through more jump power or on those who are rushing the mid air technique since they would be forced to fully move their limbs arround.
I just did a little experiment at home to prove this jumping cue, I encourage other people to do this since it´s really easy to do: go to a stair and jump up / forwards to land some steps above. Try first to do this while conciously pushing with your take off leg. Then try to do this just moving your non take off leg powerfully forwards / upwards. When did you fly the best?
I came to this idea after watching the long jump in the OT´s decathlon. Pappas, who looks like a bulldozer, won that event. His free leg swing was tremendous in comparison with clay, who seemed to rush everything.
Saladino´s 873 jump and big foul also show a tremendous degree of forward kick in comparison whith his other less successful jumps.
Jump extension should be the sprinting triple extension, thus arm movements play a role here, like happens in sprinting with the arms limiting stride length, just now I don´t know how.
This supports russian ideas posted above.
edit: standing on a mechanical wage, whenever I move my arms like in long jumping (jump leg arm forward like running and free leg arm backwards extended swing) the weight indicator moves first upwards. This is proportional to swing force, so the faster the swing and the greater the amplitude of the swing (specially the extended arm of the free leg) the greater the vertical force applied to the ground.
I believe the cue for top speed sprinting that some use that are considered “pushes” say to push up for flight time as opposed to pushing back. I believe they use this cue because the flight time vs. ground time is something like 4 to 1. Most pullers I think have reduced air time due to the foot striking slightly more in front of their body at contact. When my kids sprint I do tell them to push up for flight time and be bouncy down the runway or track. I may be wrong. Once again I am not sure if there is a right or wrong way. People have been very successful with pulling and very successful with pushing. Just like all sports there are different ways to skin the cat. As long as you believe in your system and know it very well you will have success.
A little thing that we haven´t discussed yet is the case of those jumpers who accelerate through the table and are faster at take off than on the runup. I coulnd´t find the numbers now but they are somewhere on the net.
never heard those before…just listened to Boo’s interview…the interviewer said, “oh wow” after everything Boo said…hahahah, i think he was having a good time while listening to him…lol…sorry.
anyway, real cool stuff…boo never jumps full approach in practice he was saying…and he also moves short approach jumps back throughout prep closer to competitions…good stuff…
He doesnt believe in long bounding exercises…this is one fundermental difference between him and the cubans/ europeans…
From Boo´s interview: (Sorry if it is a little bit cryptical, notes taken while hearing)
Recomends Bompa´s periodization book.
early career: block system (3 week system + 1 rest)
late career: rotational scheme, 1 week tech, etc. (dind´t get this right)
develop speed, power, elasticity / develop other skills secondarily
trains speed earlier, heavy bounding after
very fast accels, then max v, finally speed endurance (!!) due to motor habilities development (hold positions, etc.)
jumpers have to deal with impact, absolut strength helps on that
special strength: not that necessary, jump training is more general
plyos: first low intensity bounding , later depht jumps and bounding for power, peak of intensity just at the beg. of the competitive season
avoids long bounding (not specific), md distance perhaps for rythm in the triple jump
periodization: self developed, simple progression, contrast med ball with more intensive, etc. (usual)
elite athletes: fairly intense to very intense, less developed easy to intense
john moffit hadnt had a competition in six weeks before medalling in athens > high training intensities
jumpers who compete more arent unable to get as much quality training
high intensity, low volume towards competition phase
three week block in competition phase
mon: accel (though), bounds, o lifts + squat
tu: short run jumping + circuit
wed: runway rehearsal (hard) + sprint dev + vertical bounding / depht
th: tech + circuit
fri: like monday
sat: speed endurance
Long jump:
center mass moving beyond pen step > continued displacement
the penultimate is the vertical input
there has to be a penultimate
there has to be a tradeoff speed loss > penultimate
lower towards the board (forwards and downwards) > lowpoint on the board, with rise after board
pro´s are able to lower more than developing athletes, not that developing athletes should not lower much
low heel recovery last step of the take off foot
the horizontal component on the last step
hips moving forward
keep your feet underneath
accelerate through take off is good take off
teaches hitch / hang and goes from that base
extend free leg in front of body
preparation for landing on peak of flight
arm sweep for good landing, torso upright and not tucked, reaching for toes accelerates forwards rotation
Triple jump:
free leg swing, low recovery
passive jump leg
no penultimate or very very little
out – up – up
anterior pelvic tilt during phases causing trouble
long hop and short step not necesarily due to big hop but to bad midair leg change
double arm > more power , but tries to stick to the athletes own techniques
Approach:
try to look as little as possible
constant rythm
some athletes have stability issues
good vertical forces sprinting > good pelvic alignement
he wants a vertical component on the last steps, minimizing forwards push
constant fouling arround some centimeters (crazyhops your case!!) is due to posture > body instability reflex
good stability solves fouling issues
he jumps all year round
1/3 to 2/3 of max approach length during practice
Given that he doesn´t speak about a push / pull clue and that he says the penultimate inserts the vertical component of the jump and that you should maximize forwards momentum in the last step I asume he wants his athletes to run off the board.
oh, well i feel it is important to contact the board far ahead of your COM…so that will not change…my perception of where the board however, is the big deal…so hopefully that will be much different…
[quote author="Nick Newman" date="1222380993"]oh, well i feel it is important to contact the board far ahead of your COM…so that will not change…
What does everyone think about that?[/quote]Nick and I have actually spoken about it. I personally don’t COACH sticking the takeoff foot out in front of the body but Nick likes the cue and even when he does it to the max it still isn’t I would consider a problem so I don’t worry about it. Personally, I recognize that the takeoff foot of a long jumper has to be out in front a little to create lift at takeoff. There are videos of Nick jumping on YouTube and you can see for yourself that he’s nowhere near Dwight Phillips land as far as putting the foot out in front. It’s kind of a case of not worrying about things that aren’t problems.
yeah, i went to a doctor today at school…she said i dont have infection, but maybe to lay off creatine for a while? she didnt seem to really know…
Also, about the take off issue…The slower the jumper, the more height he must get. I think we can all agree on this. Im not saying im “slow” but im not Dwight Phillips fast either, therefore my take off needs to be in a position for me to get height. In the case of Dwight, because he is SO fast on the runway (11+m/s) (or was in 2004) he has lots of room for error. IF he hits that take off with great height, he will jump huge like his 8.60m. If he doesn’t, he will still go 8.20m because of his speed.
The slower the jumper, the more height he must get. I think we can all agree on this.
I wonder if this is really true. I am not a physicist or aeronautical engineer, so maybe someone out there can say whether the optimal shape of the parabolic curve in LJ varies with speed.
“Why would it not be true? Distance is either caused by horizontal velocity or take off angle…preferably BOTH”
Well, for sure it is not that simple. Take-off angle affects horizontal velocity. For example, the basketball player dunking at the end of a fast break uses a steeper take-off angle than a long jumper at the board. The basketball player thus gets more height but travels less distance forward, exactly what he wants. So, the real questions are what is the optimal take-off angle (and parabolic curve of the COM) for a long jumper, does this vary from jumper to jumper, and does this vary with the speed of the jumper. You said the that the slower the runner the steeper the optimal take-off angle. I am just curious as to what you base that on and whether it is really true.
ex400…Tell me then, in your opinion how a slower jumper can jump the same distance as a faster jumper? And i’m “getting” this from, practical experience, coaches from all over the world, research, obserations…To be honest, i think is is incredibly obvious, that if you are a slower jumper, you need a big take off ankle to jump as far as a faster jumper.
Since speed is a paramount factor in long jumping, it is clear that a slower runner has to be technically superior to the faster one in order to jump the same distance. Technically superiority could include speed at the board (as opposed to speed on the runway); better control of in-flight rotation; better extension on landing; and “better” take-off trajectory. “Better” means closer to optimal, not necessariy steeper. Let me turn the question on you: if a steeper take-off angle will enable a slow jumper to go farther, why would it not also help a fast jumper to go farther?
You are still stating as fact that the slower you are the higher you should jump. I am not saying you are wrong. I am genuinely curious to know why, in terms of the force vectors or however you want to look at it.
As I recall, research has shown that no jumpers achieve a take-off angle that is as steep as physics theory would call for. But I do not see how this is a bigger or different problem for slower jumpers. If it is, I want to know the reason.
So far a given Range, let’s say 8 meters, a guy moving 8 m/s would have to be in the air for 1 second, while a guy moving 4 m/s would have to be in the air 2 seconds. Of course, to be in the air longer you must get more height. So what Nick said about a slower guy needing to get higher to achieve the same distance is true. Of course the only problem is, I’m not sure how you obtain more initial velocity in the Y direction without moving faster. However, I’m pretty sure that the optimal take-off angle would be 45° regardless of your speed.
edit: I don’t know how to make the html in my post work but hopefully you guys can read it…
Take off angle as in 45% for the physics theory you mean? no of course not because our COG isnt on the floor, its half way up our body. Therefore 18-24 degree take off angle is ideal. The faster the jumper the lower between 18-24 degrees the jumper can take off and still produce optimal distance. And yes, of course IF a super fast jumper can take off at 24 degrees then boom, new world record. Look at Powell, on his WR jump, great speed and great height, But that is rare. Pedroso had a consistanly big take off angle, 24 degrees + and he also ran around 10.5m/s which is fast, but not carl lewis, phillips or powell fast. But pedroso was still able to jump 8.50m easily…
There have been some jumpers who have a had a higher take off angle, but its rare and not ideal. Clearly, if i ran 9m/s and had a take off angle of 30 degrees, i wouldnt go very far, just high. But i am talking relative for the long jump. The majority of jumpers take off with angles of what i said earlier.
The UK athletics biomachanics man told me pretty simply one day. He said, there are a few ways of jumping 8 metres. But if your not fast, you better make sure you jump high. And even with great height for 8m metres to be possible you need a velocity of at least 10m/s.
This discussion proves that we really need an expert in physics and the biomechanics of the take-off to post here regarding the trade-off between horizontal and vertical velocity and if/why that trade-off would depend upon the speed of the jumper.
This discussion proves that we really need an expert in physics and the biomechanics of the take-off to post here regarding the trade-off between horizontal and vertical velocity and if/why that trade-off would depend upon the speed of the jumper.
The only thing wrong about my physics was the take-off angle. The equations are still applicable, at least in concept. The range is simply a function of the horizontal component of your velocity vector multiplied by the time of flight.
You guys are going to drive me crazy. I researched lots of stuff on trajectory. All the equations are based on horizontal velocity and vertical velocity being independent, like throwing a rock from a moving car. In long jumping they are not independent, hence my questions. I am out.
ok, this is such a stupid issue… I have about 200+ references from books, videos, articles, studies, round the table convos, etc etc from coaches all over the world saying that the two MOST IMPORTANT elements of long jump distance are horizontal velocity AND take off angle. If 2 people with the same leg length and landing abilities wanted to jump 8m. One runs 10.5 m/s and the other ran 10m/s, the slower one would HAVE TO HAVE a bigger take off angle…its just that simple.
ok, this is such a stupid issue… I have about 200+ references from books, videos, articles, studies, round the table convos, etc etc from coaches all over the world saying that the two MOST IMPORTANT elements of long jump distance are horizontal velocity AND take off angle. If 2 people with the same leg length and landing abilities wanted to jump 8m. One runs 10.5 m/s and the other ran 10m/s, the slower one would HAVE TO HAVE a bigger take off angle…its just that simple.
Nick is correct up to a point on the take-off angle, it’s up to the optimum take off angle involved based around momentum at the center of mass. However if both jump at their optimum angle the faster one wins.
The problem is getting height without loosing speed. The issue is that if you place your foot way ahead of your com while heelstriking you are applying extra braking forces on the ground and this may be the small difference between 7.70 and 8.00m 🙂 . That may also have been the difference between 8.60 and 8.90.
Another interesting way of reducing gct at take off is focusing on the push off the penultimate instead / in addition of pulling/pushing at take off. If you are able to increase the relative speed of the torso to the legs in the penultimate then the torso is going to travel faster above your plant foot at take off. I.e. instead of having the whole body travel simultaneously in the air right before take off have the torso travel slighty faster than the legs. I believe that is visible in Pedroso and Saladino and that this may also have a relationship with forward rotation.
one thing that we haven’t mentioned yet as a vital factor for the slower (or faster) jumper is how much force the he/she creates at take off. This along with speed and take off angle are the key factors…
aivala, i would argue that those jumps you are refering to would have actually been less in distance if the athlete had have had a take more under his body, thus creating even lesser a take off angle…
P.S, Mike, not including journals and the word game, where does this thread rank as most viewed? 3900 and something i believe…
one thing that we haven’t mentioned yet as a vital factor for the slower (or faster) jumper is how much force the he/she creates at take off. This along with speed and take off angle are the key factors…
aivala, i would argue that those jumps you are refering to would have actually been less in distance if the athlete had have had a take more under his body, thus creating even lesser a take off angle…
take-off angle is directly related to the ability to produce force at a given speed.
Take off angle refers to the position of your hips relative to your take off foot at the exact point when your foot leaves the ground…no?
I don’t think this is exactly true. That could be a decent approximation, but I think it is better represented as angle relating to the force vector projecting the COM. Which would be from the lowest COM x,y during ground contact to the highest COM x,y in a 2 dimensional representation. I think some coaches just replace COM with the hip, but using the foot would introduce more error as the COM is still a good 25+ inches above the ground at the lowest point during gct.
All force, velocity, impulse, and momentum vectors should refer to the movement of the COM, not a fixed point since they are representing what’s happening at the COM.
Forgive me because I didn’t have the time to read through all the previous posts but I think I got the gist of the latest debate and I’m going to try to reconcile some thoughts and provide some information that I think might be useful.
2 seemingly opposing views are actually correct here but I think the context of the way statements are made needs to be taken in to account.
For instance, we can say “to be an elite jumper you need to be able to jump 8m and this can be done either by having high takeoff velocity and lower takeoff angle or lower takeoff velocity and higher takeoff angle” and it is 100% true. At the same time, it can be true to say we can’t have both maximal velocity and maximal takeoff angle. This is because the 2 variables are inextricably linked…for a given performer, as one variable goes up the other goes down.
With this in mind, what’s the best way to takeoff? Well, it kinda depends on your strengths and weaknesses. Putting the foot out far in front of the COM will definitely produce a big vertical component at takeoff. HOWEVER, it can also potentially lead to a loss of horizontal velocity, especially if the setup for that takeoff has the athlete putting the feet out in front in the last couple steps.
This brings me to another point. What is more important – takeoff velocity or takeoff height? To be honest, from a mechanical standpoint it isn’t even close. Velocity is far and away the most important variable in any projectile motion situation when distance is the primary concern. It’s not even close. Distance is a product of velocity squared (velocity x velocity) while only a product of projection angle. This means that velocity has a much bigger impact on the distance traveled. In fact, my research on the throwing events (where these questions also arise) suggest that the release velocity can explain up to 95% of the variance of a performance. Basically, that means, if you tell me what the velocity is, I can tell you whether it’s a great, good, or bad performance. The same cannot be said for takeoff or release angle.
With that said, takeoff angle IS important because if you do not achieve a minimal level projection then you won’t have the time to cover any distance through the air. This effect is amplified the further you are expecting to jump.
I’ll conclude by saying this, don’t look to physics books as they won’t tell the entire story. Athletics is about BIOmechanics….with an emphasis on the bio. We have to remember that the human organism is a living breathing machine that doesn’t operate like the perfectly mechanical physics world would have us believe. Instead there are a host of factors ranging from muscle fiber types, fiber angles, muscle insertions, joint positions, secondary limb positions, and even training state that affect what is ‘optimal’ for human movement. I am actually not aware of any circumstances where the mathematically predicted ‘optimal’ joint angles, release angles, projection angles, etc, etc are actually equivalent to the biomechanically optimal parameters. This is actually the topic of my doctoral dissertation so I feel that I can safely say that I am an expert on the issue. In a nutshell, nothing operates independently of other functions in the human body. This goes for biological processes as well as movement patterns. With that said, we can’t take one parameter, expect to hold it constant and not expect to observe changes in any other variables. Think of it as a sliding scale system with multiple variables where there’s a finite quantity to spread amongst those variables and you have to choose what combination or distribution will produce the best outcome.
Further to Mike’s post, physics says the optimum launch angle is 45 degrees which holds true for shot put and motor bike stunts over cars etc. However biophysics (the old word for biomechanics) shows that biological species such as humans can change your effective centre of mass. For example, a top class high jumper actually passes their centre of mass below their body as they pass over the bar. (was Dick Fosbury a physicist?)Hurdlers keep their COM low by leaning forward appreciably meaning less energy is expended in achieving vertical displacement.
Without any need for mathematics, we can all understand how we influence centre of mass. Arm swing can benefit upward velocity in a vertical jump. The same can be said during a long jump where the use of arm swing could allow more energy expenditure of the leg muscles in the horizontal direction. Also the use of leg swing can influence centre of effective mass. Running speed, jumping off penultimate steps, large braking forces in the last step whatever works for the individual and flaying of arms and legs is probably all designed to launch the effective COM at 45 degrees. The chosen launch angle is the skill of the jumper and probably intuitively the coach.
Was Fosbury a physicist?! :). NO he was not physics major, in fact he was something not even close. He would like that one… I’ve had the pleasure of meeting him and seeing him, as I live in Oregon. Here at Oregon State we are proud, but we still have no program since ’88… but plans are being made to bring it back thankfully by ’10, too bad my eligibility is gone… I chose OSU for academics… anyways back to the topic.
He told me that it was just easier and it made since because he wanted to get better and didn’t really like the straddle. He’s very open about it. It reminds me of one of Vern’s ideas, “Innovation, strategy, and creativity.” Fosbury had that and was not afraid to use it. I think there is a good lesson for all coaches who look at the Fosbury flop that way. And I like to interpret it as “over analysis leads to paralysis.”
Wanted to add something because I wasn’t sure if this is clear…under no circumstances is the optimal takeoff angle in any of the horizontal jumps any where near 45 degrees. Same with launch angles in ALL 4 of the throwing events. Not even close. And although the fact that the COM of the launch point is higher at takeoff this only plays a VERY minor role in this discrepancy. In fact, an objects COM would have to be released / takeoff / projected from a point 2m above the point of landing for the physics book predicted optimal angle to even drop 3 degrees. In the horizontal jumps and even in the PV the optimal takeoff angle is between 17-22 degrees. Sure there are some people outside of this range but I would LOVE to have my jumpers compete against someone trying to achieve a 45 degree takeoff angle. Likewise in the throws, the optimal projection angles are between 28 and 36 degrees with typically 5 degree windows for each throw. This is all supported by a TON of literature…some of which is actually on this site.
Wanted to add something because I wasn’t sure if this is clear…under no circumstances is the optimal takeoff angle in any of the horizontal jumps any where near 45 degrees. Same with launch angles in ALL 4 of the throwing events. Not even close. And although the fact that the COM of the launch point is higher at takeoff this only plays a VERY minor role in this discrepancy. In fact, an objects COM would have to be released / takeoff / projected from a point 2m above the point of landing for the physics book predicted optimal angle to even drop 3 degrees. In the horizontal jumps and even in the PV the optimal takeoff angle is between 17-22 degrees. Sure there are some people outside of this range but I would LOVE to have my jumpers compete against someone trying to achieve a 45 degree takeoff angle. Likewise in the throws, the optimal projection angles are between 28 and 36 degrees with typically 5 degree windows for each throw. This is all supported by a TON of literature…some of which is actually on this site.
Yes quite right. I remember back to my discus days where launch angle was 37 degrees but then a discus creates its own lift. With events that require a build up of force in the horizontal direction a change to 45 degrees would encounter substantial loss in energy because of the inefficiencies of the human body. When you combine arm swing and leg tuck/swing what is the launch angle of the effective COM? It would be interesting to note the launch angle from the point of force application i.e. the ground as well. I’ll take your word on lauch angle though, I was only a 4m jumper in high school.
Without digressing too much from the long jump, I remember seeing footage from the Olympic games in Rome well before Fosbury where a commentator says that one particular high jumper (who had a jump partially turned so she was backwards) had great genetic attribute and would make a great jumper if she only learned the correct way to jump which at the time was the straddle. Even Fosbury encountered resistance from some of his coaches who insisted he jump the modern way. It is truly an attribute to him that he persisted against all the conformists on the basis of his logic.
and to add, my fav long jumper of all time, Mr Pedroso, had a take angle around 24 degrees and sometimes more…
Wow that’s low compared to theory. Yes I believe you guys. I read some articles particularly ones by Linthorne (an ex Sydney University professor) which I should have read before entering the debate! It would be interesting to see the effective launch angle relative to the position in stance where force application is greatest and where EMG activity is highest. I think they (Linthorne et al.) are working on computer simulations as Brunel University. I know you guys were going to look at assisted jumps, Rob Newton has done work previously and is doing some at Edith Cowan University currently. Look forward to seeing the thesis.
I think the main problem here is how to measure take-off angle. Could you elaborate, I still think measuring from 2-d changes in COM, with the approximation being the hips although COM it’s position relative to the hip quite dramatically in the last step of a jump and not from foot angle.
I have always taught to measure take off angle in the long jump as the angle of the take off leg JUST before take off and the free leg. So the line, goes from floor up the front of take off leg at which ever angle it is, to where it meets the COM and then horizontally along the free leg.
I really need to draw it, so ill try to attach something later…
And Jeremy: I have also read Rob Newtons work, actually have it on my computer and will use it as one refernence for my thesis. The work for it has just got underway and should be really good. I am looking forward to seeing if my method of suspention jump squat training can beat the gold standard or complex training.
For instance, we can say “to be an elite jumper you need to be able to jump 8m and this can be done either by having high takeoff velocity and lower takeoff angle or lower takeoff velocity and higher takeoff angle” and it is 100% true. At the same time, it can be true to say [b]we can’t have both maximal velocity and maximal takeoff angle. This is because the 2 variables are inextricably linked…for a given performer, as one variable goes up the other goes down. [/b]
With this in mind, what’s the best way to takeoff? Well, it kinda depends on your strengths and weaknesses. Putting the foot out far in front of the COM will definitely produce a big vertical component at takeoff. HOWEVER, it can also potentially lead to a loss of horizontal velocity, especially if the setup for that takeoff has the athlete putting the feet out in front in the last couple steps.
This brings me to another point. What is more important – takeoff velocity or takeoff height? To be honest, from a mechanical standpoint it isn’t even close. Velocity is far and away the most important variable in any projectile motion situation when distance is the primary concern. It’s not even close. Distance is a product of velocity squared (velocity x velocity) while only a product of projection angle. This means that velocity has a much bigger impact on the distance traveled. In fact, my research on the throwing events (where these questions also arise) suggest that the release velocity can explain up to 95% of the variance of a performance. Basically, that means, if you tell me what the velocity is, I can tell you whether it’s a great, good, or bad performance. The same cannot be said for takeoff or release angle.
Thanks, Mike. Exactly what I was trying to get across to Nick. For every jumper there is an optimum take-off angle and trajectory. Nick claims that this optimum varies directly with the speed of the jumper. I just want to see some evidence. He claims 200 references to support his contention, but has offered none here.
It seems to me that the trade-off between horizontal and vertical velocity is analogous to the trade-off in sprint speed between turnover and stride length. An increase in one leads to a decrease in the other. To say the way to go faster is to increase stride length while maintaining turnover rate is obviously true in the world of arithmetic, but not in the real world of sprinting or sprint coaching. Seems to me that the same applies to the question of take-off angle in long jumping. In both cases, every sprinter has an optimal combination.
Mike also stated that the optimal take off angle does depend on the speed of the jumper…i assure i was not wrong!
the optimal angle of take off is different depending on the speed of the jumper….what dont you understand here? ? ?? ? ?
it also depends on the hip height/ leg length of the jumper…for someone who runs 11m/s, their take off angle will be less than a jumper who runs 10m/s but jumps the same distance
Re-read this thread before you say that i’m saying in-correct statements. Get YOUR facts right first please.
haha this post got intense. I don’t think anyone was wrong with this one. Obviously everyone is different and needs to find out whats right for them. In any horizontal jump its important to be fast, and i have personally noticed that i jump much better when i am still accelerating and pull my jump leg through fast and underneath me so if my leg is in front of me, which it often is due to concentrating on high jump over the years, that I slow myself down and go too high and only end up at about 6.70 rather than 7.20’s. With that said what your doing Nick is what is probably right for you and you do it becuase youve been coached on it and it works. I don’t understand why all this turned into such a battle
i have no idea either john…The initial statement was, you need to have your foot infront of your COM for a optimal take off (CORRECT) and also a slower jumper needs a bigger take off angle to jump as far as a faster jumper (CORRECT)
Yes, but the problem is how to minimize speed loss while having a big vertical component in the jump. From my own experience it’s possible to get the same vertical lift while heel striking and while not doing so, with the latter jumps being about half a metre longer than the heelstrike ones, and even though the app speed in the heelstrike jumps was much higher than in the other ones. The only explanation I can find to this is horizontal speed loss due to heelstriking’s massive braking.
yeah true…like Mike said, its a trade off…its not possible to achieve optimum in both at the exact same time…
but, i dont think the braking effect is THAT huge…
I have biomachanics analysis of Greg Rutherfords 8.20m LJ this year, on that jump, he put his foot WAY OUT IN FRONT and did not lose a significent amount of speed from 1m-board.
Mike also stated that the optimal take off angle does depend on the speed of the jumper…
Sorry you are taking this so personally, Nick. I am only interested in the science here. Mike may have said what you attribute to him sometime or somewhere, but he did not do so in this thread. Not unless you think that the arithmetical truth that to jump as far as a faster runner you have to stay in the air longer is useful in the real world of biomechanics and the trade-off between horizontal and vertical velocity. Why don’t you just post one of your 200+ references?
As I recall, you are 7.5 M jumper. You seem to believe that the key to becoming an 8.0 jumper is to jump steeper than the 8-meter jumpers. I was a 7-meter jumper, so I suppose you think I should jump even steeper than you. I am pretty confident that, given my speed, power, etc. I found the optimal take-off angle for myself. I sincerely doubt that trying to exceed your take-off angle would have done me any good. I have certainly seen plenty of jumpers who I think would benefit from a steeper take-off, but that is not because they are slow.
Again, just give me some science (physics and biomechanics), not just assertions or math based on the premise that two vectors (horizontal and vertical) are independent when they are not. If you are right, I will apply it gladly, but I am unable to simply take your word for it. Sorry.
you not taking my word is fine…but your taking Mikes, which is the same as mine…we said the same thing…
how many times do i need to repeat it…
a slower jumper needs to have a bigger take off angle than a faster one to jump the same distance…that is all i said, and it is true…
In England, we have an 8m jumper, he runs 10.2 m/s at best over the final 10m of the approach (same as me right now). His rate of force development has also been tested against mine and we are just about even. Difference, his take off angle, ie the height he gets on his jumps is outstanding and better than mine right now…that is the difference…
I fully understand the need for speed, and as you can see, work on it very often and wil become faster i am sure…i never said the key for me to jump 8m is JUST to have bigger take angles, it is important yes, but my speed, strength, technique etc is also important…
I simply said, what i have repeated a hundred times…
All people should take from this discussion is something you seem to be missing…
1- both speed and take off angle are vital for jumping performance
2- jumping 8m or any distance can be done very differently, depending on speed or take off angle
3- optimal angle for LJ is around 17-24 degrees
4- the faster you are the harder it is to acheive a big take off angle
5- its not possible to acheive both optimal results in each element individually in the same jump
Final thing that i would like to add, although science is very important…coaching is not science alone and never will be, a practical element/ knowledge must be included in every program.
1. The optimum take-off angle for each jumper and each jump a jumper makes is different meaning it’s highly variable, subject to such attributes as velocity of the COM at take-off, length of ground contact at take-off, leg stiffness(strength) at take-off,etc. Those values differ based on the jumpers ability to accelerate, the jumpers ability to withstand high-force, and skill with which they jump, not to mention fatigue and others attributes that may directly or indirectly influence performance.
2. The take-off angle should be measured from movement in the COM. This is best approximated by using the hips as guidance. Not from the foot through the hip.
3. The COM is hard to measure because the COM’s relative position to any point on the body moves the most during ground contact. It’s not a fixed point and the movement of the COM is directly affected by changes in forces present in the system.
4. The goal of any jumper should be to get faster while keeping about the same jump angle as the had previously with their best attempts. See my posts in Jeremy’s Newtonian Mechanics of Sprinting article.
5. Teaching height to a horizontal jumper is no-no in my book. It teaches and reinforces bad habits such as excessive braking and guidance problems to the board because the jumper is focused on getting height in the last few steps to the board. This is why I don’t teach pop-up jumps or rarely cue driving the leg through. However, if you teach acceleration,speed maintenance, and a stride pattern you can lengthen an approach to get more speed once the athlete masters the ability to jump for a given # of strides.
6. For runners of 2 different speeds the slower runner needs a larger take-off angle than the faster jumper to beat them. No jumper in the world has the ability to jump at 45 degrees on take off. With that said if a slower runner at take-off outjumps a faster jumper at take-off it all comes down to the slower runner having a larger take-off angle if their control of their COM on landing is the same.
Coaching is not indeed just about the physics involved it’s about getting the athlete to produce the best physics possible according to their current skill and abilities during performance. That requires instruction, feedback, cueing, conditioning, motor learning, motor development, and motor control.
however we have differant philosophys where number 4 and 5 are concerned…but that is not to say either of us is wrong…
heres why anyway,
mastering a jump at a given no. of strides in my book means a few things,
1 – achieving optimal height
2 – demonstrating the ability to penetrate the board down and back sufficiently
3 – being able to control over rotation
Now, these 3 will very often change when a jumper adds or takes strides away. For example, right now, i may be able to get all of these correct from 11 strides, but not from 13+ strides. Therefore i am not ready to move forward with my technique development just yet. Something simular to this was used by John Crotty, one of UKA’s national jumps coaches, and it just stuck with me as being very practical.
In my opinion achieving height at take off, is very much about phyical ability but also about correct positioning at take off, and this should be taught and re-enforced.
a slower jumper needs to have a bigger take off angle than a faster one to jump the same distance…that is all i said, and it is true…
All people should take from this discussion is something you seem to be missing…
1- both speed and take off angle are vital for jumping performance
2- jumping 8m or any distance can be done very differently, depending on speed or take off angle
3- optimal angle for LJ is around 17-24 degrees
4- the faster you are the harder it is to acheive a big take off angle
5- its not possible to acheive both optimal results in each element individually in the same jump
Every point you list is exactly what I have been saying, except #4, which is what I am questioning and what I am asking for evidence of. Of course, a slower runner has to jump higher with a bigger take-off angle to jump the same distance as a faster one. That is just simple math. But increasing the take-off angle will normally decrease the speed, so a steeper take-off angle can increase jump distance or decrease it. It all depends on whether your current angle is higher, lower or equal to optimum for you. That’s why they call it optimum. If you can steepen your take-off without corresponding reduction in speed, then great. That would simply mean that your previous angle of take-off was below optimum and now it is better. But I have seen many jumpers who get great height, but lose a great deal of horizontal velocity to do so, resulting in a short jump.
I believe you are just saying it differently. However, you are not teaching height when teaching or reinforcing positioning at take-off. You are teaching postural awareness, as height is a symptom of take-off angle and speed just as length is symptom of take-off angle and speed.
How many since you have been in high school have you heard a coach say to an athlete at a meet these things after telling them they had a less than optimal jump.
“Drive that knee through”
“Get some pop off the board”
“you have to get more height”
I can almost guarantee you 9 times out 10 the next jump will be just as bad if not worse after this type of feedback is given to the athlete as they are likely to scratch or create a really high take-off angle compared to their last jump while sacrificing speed.
While correct positioning is more about acceleration, speed maintenance, stride patterning, and leg stiffness. You cannot get correct positioning on a consistent basis without these.
FYI. there is 99% of the time a loss of speed at take off for elite long jumpers. I have only ever seen ONE jumper actually accelerate off the board consistantly and i have lots of biomachanics reports from meets, squad trainings ect ect…
btw, research studies are good, but actual data from what jumpers do in meets is much better.
And honestly, this post has got rediculus, that article jumps confirms what i have been saying…i honestly think you are lost as to what you are trying prove and what your not…
Also, if this is now about ex400 not knowing if its harder to get height the faster you run then i suggest you read some very basic books on long jumping. I do not know a single coach or jumper that would say it isnt easier to gget height when you run slow. It is so basic, the slower you run the easier it is a apply great force to the track, when you have such little time to generate the same force needed when you are super fast. You say you were a jumper, are you saying that you struggled to get height from short approach jumps in training but found it easy to get height from a full run? If this was the case, i would have jumped 8.20m already.
i assure you i have said nothing in-correct on this thread….but i doubt ill check it again…it is just silly now…
Yes, it is just silly now. All I ever asked for was either theory or evidence to support your assertion that the slower the jumper, the higher the optimum angle of take-off. I would still like this, but I think we are all weary of this. BTW, I think you are lucky to have Mike coaching you and he will help you find and hit your optimum take-off angle.
I want to post a link to Saladino’s 8.73 jump from an interesting angle, it’s actually a “flat” jump. There’s a lot of people getting same lift off the board yet jumping way less than him.
This angle, side view and observer height, shows that he doesn´t get that much of a lift as awaited in such an enormous jump. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhePvdvzyLA
I want to post a link to Saladino’s 8.73 jump from an interesting angle, it’s actually a “flat” jump. There’s a lot of people getting same lift off the board yet jumping way less than him.
This angle, side view and observer height, shows that he doesn´t get that much of a lift as awaited in such an enormous jump. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhePvdvzyLA
The faster the jump the flatter the trajectory will look, but it’s deceiving as the change in his hip height from the ground was huge (at least 30+ inches).
I wouldn’t call that low but it’s definitely not a big booming jump like Powell or Phillips in their hayday. As has been said, speed at takeoff is overwhelmingly the biggest factor influencing the measured distance. But, if a slower jumper wants to jump as far as a faster jumper, they either have to get faster or be able to have a greater takeoff angle; the latter of which is difficult without creating a further discrepancy in speed at takeoff. Thanks for the video. That’s a great angle to take a look at his takeoff. If only the video were a little less shaky.
yeah, we have the stuff now here at school…getting it installed soon and then the study will get started. Expensive stuff but luckily the school is backing me. !
grand prize to anyone to identifies the harness device that she is wearing.
Cool videos but is it a real harness? The entire setup looks like a jimmy-rigged contraption rather than something that was manufactured specifically for that purpose. The assistance seems to basically just come from bungee / elastic cords and the ‘vest’ kinda looks a couple pulley belts attached to each other. These types of contraption are quite common in the diving and youth gymnastics world. You might want to look there to find a commercial vest.
wow, i never saw this post…i read that article a while back..pretty good…the Ritzdorf one is better though…
anyway,
This thread is about take off mechanics…this video is pretty perfect…and please check foot placement on contact relative to the hips please…for those doubters!
I think Pedroso’s takeoff technique is great in that video. That’s the happy medium in my opinion. Dwight Phillips is on the extreme end and a little more in front than I’d ideally like to see.
There are several more detailed versions of this research by Linthorne[/url] on the site. Specifically the one about projection angles in the jumps and throws. [/url]
Something that I and a friend of mine have known is that I have hops when stationary, but when I’m running fast, I don’t jump high. It’s becoming a pretty big problem because I don’t jump very high and I easily get 22 and some change, but when I just jog and then do a little jump on the plank, I get ridiculously higher than when I’m running full speed. Do you think it’s a psychological thing, normal, or I really don’t have the hops I thought.
You are probably lacking eccentric strength and elastic power…
The extra speed gives you little time to generate enough power needed to achieve great height + distance…
OR
Possibly you don’t position your take off foot correctly and therefore just run off the board. Leg needs to be stiff with foot placed in front of your centre of mass in order to transfer some of your horizontal velocity into vertical.
don’t worry about height right now. i know plenty of moderately good jumpers who all of a sudden started focusing on height and right around the same time started subtracting feet from their jumps…hmm
Achieving a good take off includes getting height…he should always been looking for correct take off position…
And if he wants to be a good jumper he needs to also develop specific strength for it…
so, saying dont worry about height is stupid..always work on your worknesses as well as strengths…
The only possible reasons for not caring about getting height is if you DO NOT want to jump as far as possible OR if you are extremely fast on the runway (10.7 m/s plus).
well you can do what ever you want but remember: SPEED is king.
1) achieve a very high takeoff velocity
2) put together a sound plant
3) that’s all folks
Achieving a good take off includes getting height…he should always been looking for correct take off position…
And if he wants to be a good jumper he needs to also develop specific strength for it…
so, saying dont worry about height is stupid..always work on your worknesses as well as strengths…
The only possible reasons for not caring about getting height is if you DO NOT want to jump as far as possible OR if you are extremely fast on the runway (10.7 m/s plus).
I would have to disagree with this…If you are worrying about height in a jump then that is going to take away from horizontal velocity at takeoff because of the fact that you have to lower more to jump higher. Why worry about height…they say optimal takeoff angle is 22 degrees or right around there so jumping up is very bad advice…maybe going flat flat on last two steps or something along those lines but I gaurantee if you tell a jumper to work on jumping up then as mentioned earlier it will surely take away from jump
Oh boy, back to this debate again. Nick believes that he can gain more by jumping higher than he will lose from the decrease in horizontal velocity that comes from trying to jump higher. I am skeptical that this will work.
What? You DO NOT have to lower yourself in order to achieve great height. Look at Pedroso…he doesn’t lower himself at all. But he clearly had amazing elastic strength and eccentric strength and also put his take off foot in the correct position…
With repect pumblechuck you don’t seem to understand this very well. The OPTIMAL take off angle changes per athlete depending on the speed of the athlete. But is always pretty much around 17-24 degrees…
You also seem to think by simply telling someone to jump higher while at top speed that it will happen. This is not the case trust me. I am talking about specific training which is ENABLE the athlete to achieve height during the jump. Once specific strength has been achieved and correct take off position has been acheived the height needed with happen.
Like i said before…A super fast athlete can jump 8m with low height. A medium speed athlete can jump 8m with medium height and a slower athlete can jump 8m with great height. (This is if all 3 jumpers have the same techinque etc).
Let’s use the following example because of the given take-off angle range (17-24 degrees):
If two jumpers have the same take-off angle but have different take-off velocities the faster athlete will have the longer jumps this assumes they control rotations and land near optimally.
The important aspect is to train speed at take-off.
1. slower runners need to maintain velocity as much as possible in the last 2 steps of the jump.
2. faster runners need to maintain stiffness while maintaining take-off angle.
Just as it is confusing to analyse running speed by looking at it as the product of stride length and stride frequency, it is (even more) confusing to look at long jumping as the result of take-off angle and speed (running speed or take-off speed – whatever). This thread (and the other long one) seems to prove it…
Those are not independent variables. I mean take-off angle is after all a kind of measurement of the ratio between the vertical velocity and horizontal velocity (aka running speed). So, if two jumpers have the same take-of angle, either they have exactly the same horizontal and vertical velocity at take-off or one of them has more of BOTH horizontal and vertical velocity.
Take-off angle is only of visual value it is not a factor well suited for analysis. Vertical and horizontal velocity factors should be used as they are at least “mathematically independent”. Of course, they are not independent in actual practice of the long jump and it this dependancy that ought to be discussed.
I don’t even know where to start with what you wrote…so i won’t. I will let Dbandre pick that apart.
I’d prefer Mike do it. I stand by my statements although both technically mean the same thing. Improving velocity at take-off. Not approach velocity, although a very fast approach helps, but not if hinders stiffness, a low jump with a short distance. A slow approach usually means you can maintain stiffness, but if you exaggerate the penultimate step you will slow down even more leading to lose of momentum going into the plant and subsequent take-off more than you want to and produce a high jump of relatively short distance. Faster runners even have this problem when they exaggerate the penultimate step as well, think of a basketball layup on a fast break.
If I may interject, I’m not so sure speed is the thing that presents problems for me, I do a 9′ stationary jump and that’s ALSO low height. But when I try to jump higher, it does retract from my distance. Never knew about the 22 degrees rule. Thought it was around 40 (stupid Physics).
Btw, Nick, what would I need to do to develop my “eccentric strength and elastic power?”
Remember Kendall the COG is half way up a persons body therefore the take off angle is much lower than the 45 degrees you may expect from the ground.
Bounding, hopping, plyometrics, slow downward movement during the deep squat, stiff legged jumps, static landing from box drops….these are a few things that will help you in this area…
And for andersheha…There are acticles on this website that you should read to give you a better understanding of what a take off angle is and how it is very important to trajectory in the jumps.
Bounding, hopping, plyometrics, slow downward movement during the deep squat, stiff legged jumps, static landing from box drops….these are a few things that will help you in this area…
I will agree with the above. Training in this manner which will provide for increased height via special preparation (not by thinking “height” during a jump) is a good thing.
However when cueing a long jump (especially for a high school jumper w/o a top coach): just blaaaaaaze
[quote author="Nick Newman" date="1229858325"]
Bounding, hopping, plyometrics, slow downward movement during the deep squat, stiff legged jumps, static landing from box drops….these are a few things that will help you in this area…
I will agree with the above. Training in this manner which will provide for increased height via special preparation (not by thinking “height” during a jump) is a good thing.
However when cueing a long jump (especially for a high school jumper w/o a top coach): just blaaaaaaze[/quote]
Thank you for letting me know about “not by thinking ‘height,'” because that’s what I thought the problem was.
And for andersheha…There are acticles on this website that you should read to give you a better understanding of what a take off angle is and how it is very important to trajectory in the jumps.
LOL! WTF are you talking about 🙂 You haven’t got a clue… Good long jumper though and I wish you good luck.
Remember Kendall the COG is half way up a persons body therefore the take off angle is much lower than the 45 degrees you may expect from the ground.
The position of the center of gravity is not the reason why take-off angle is much lower than 45 degrees. Here’s the real reason: horizontal velocity is built up during several seconds of running while vertical velocity is produced only in the last 0.1-0.2 seconds before take-off. Naturally then, you cannot attain as much vertical velocity as horizontal velocity.
(45 degree angle is the same as: vertical veolocity = horizontal velocity).
How do you measure vertical velocity? Assuming I have zero horizontal velocity, I can achieve a 45 degree take-off angle using your equation which is not possible under any known mechanical system in this universe or dimension. Or is it your equation should read vv + hv = 90 degrees? Then what about impulse and what role does that play? How about that horizontal velocity and velocity are not governed by the same force constraints although some do overlap like viscosity of muscles.
How do you measure vertical velocity? Assuming I have zero horizontal velocity, I can achieve a 45 degree take-off angle using your equation which is not possible under any known mechanical system in this universe or dimension. Or is it your equation should read vv + hv = 90 degrees? Then what about impulse and what role does that play? How about that horizontal velocity and velocity are not governed by the same force constraints although some do overlap like viscosity of muscles.
My equation?! I was only stating the obvious, 45 degree take-off angle is produced when vertical and horizontal velocity, at the instant of take-off, is equal.
How do you measure vertical velocity? Assuming I have zero horizontal velocity, I can achieve a 45 degree take-off angle using your equation which is not possible under any known mechanical system in this universe or dimension. Or is it your equation should read vv + hv = 90 degrees? Then what about impulse and what role does that play? How about that horizontal velocity and velocity are not governed by the same force constraints although some do overlap like viscosity of muscles.
My equation?! I was only stating the obvious, 45 degree take-off angle is produced when vertical and horizontal velocity, at the instant of take-off, is equal.[/quote]
I just proposed that what you stated is indeed not true.
Yeah honestly…dude, please research your arguments before saying things like i dont have a clue…
I assure you, i have researched this point in depth. Spoke to some of the top biomachanics people in the USA and the UK about the jumps and this particular issue, i have worked with or spoken to some of the top coaches about this issue as well…
Here’s a quote which was in the book, The jumps, Contenpary theory, technique and training. Edited by Jess Jarver.
” If we started from the ground up level with of COG then the best angle of projection for distance jumping is 45 degrees and for height is 90 degrees. However, the athletes COG is always some height above ground level at take off and a high jumper must cross the bar and so must have a forward ankle of some kind”.
“The angle in the long jump is a comprosime between the need for horizontal velocity and the need for height. The horixzontal velocity reduces the time on the board and therefore time to gain height. In the case of novice jumpers, excessive speed is often the cause of poor jumps because there is little time TO GAIN OPTIMAL TAKE OFF ANGLE”.
I have so much more research which obviously states the same things. Facts are facts. The way it is is the way it is.
Andersheha, i don’t know you, and you certianly havent a clue about me or my background. I am NOT JUST a jumper. If you bothered to read information else where on this site alone you will find Mike echoeing my points. His PHD in biomachanics may convince you if nothing i say does…Please do not fall into the same trap as the many ignorant people out there.
I have noticed something interesting in Pedroso’s take off mechanics, if you look at his take off foot prior the backwards grab it’s very noticeable that he has much more dorsiflexion and foot height in comparison with other jumpers. Carl Lewis also used this kind of mechanics in his late years:
Btw why does the lowering part of the squat have to be slower?
yeah i noticed the same thing. It seems as if this would give him the extra downward momentum for a powerful take off, expecially taking into account that he doesn’t lower himself that much at all really…
As for the squats. This is just one method and would act as a different type of stimuli for the quads etc. The UK guys like to do this by doing a single leg box slow step down. We have done using both legs this year. I prefer single legs.
Yeah honestly…dude, please research your arguments before saying things like i dont have a clue…
I assure you, i have researched this point in depth. Spoke to some of the top biomachanics people in the USA and the UK about the jumps and this particular issue, i have worked with or spoken to some of the top coaches about this issue as well…
Here’s a quote which was in the book, The jumps, Contenpary theory, technique and training. Edited by Jess Jarver.
” If we started from the ground up level with of COG then the best angle of projection for distance jumping is 45 degrees and for height is 90 degrees. However, the athletes COG is always some height above ground level at take off and a high jumper must cross the bar and so must have a forward ankle of some kind”.
“The angle in the long jump is a comprosime between the need for horizontal velocity and the need for height. The horixzontal velocity reduces the time on the board and therefore time to gain height. In the case of novice jumpers, excessive speed is often the cause of poor jumps because there is little time TO GAIN OPTIMAL TAKE OFF ANGLE”.
I have so much more research which obviously states the same things. Facts are facts. The way it is is the way it is.
Andersheha, i don’t know you, and you certianly havent a clue about me or my background. I am NOT JUST a jumper. If you bothered to read information else where on this site alone you will find Mike echoeing my points. His PHD in biomachanics may convince you if nothing i say does…Please do not fall into the same trap as the many ignorant people out there.
What I say is what the introductory chapter of any physics text book will tell you. Very basic stuff so research is certainly not needed.
Nick, you seem to be a good jumper with a lot of ambition and a very strong work ethic. I think everybody here wants you to achieve your goals. But you also seem obsessed with the idea of trying to jump higher. You may gain more height simply from getting stronger and that would be a plus. But changing technically in order to jump higher is a risky road, because there is always a trade-off between gains in height and losses in horizontal velocity. You have a very qualified coach and I would suggest you let him worry about theory and let him decide if your take-off angle is too low or not.
Basic physics can not be applied to the jumps or throws…any half decent coach knows this…
The fact that you are going from a physics text book and not a BIOMACHANICS text book is the reason why your do not know what your talking about. I am sorry that you don’t understand. Really i am.
We are dealing with the HUMAN BODY here…not a Missile being launched from the ground.
So are you saying that all research, biomachanics analysis of jumps, coaching litt, kinematic long jump models etc etc are wrong? ? ?
Nick, you seem to be a good jumper with a lot of ambition and a very strong work ethic. I think everybody here wants you to achieve your goals. But you also seem obsessed with the idea of trying to jump higher. You may gain more height simply from getting stronger and that would be a plus. But changing technically in order to jump higher is a risky road, because there is always a trade-off between gains in height and losses in horizontal velocity. You have a very qualified coach and I would suggest you let him worry about theory and let him decide if your take-off angle is too low or not.
Thanks i appreciate the compliments. But, please understand that i am not just an athlete. I am in a masters program in Human Performance and will be going for my PHD in about 2 years. I study this ALOT becuase this is what i love. I have a lot of resources available to me. By this i mean, great coaches including my own coach, historians, books, articles, research and biomachanics reports that most people don’t get to see. Therefore my “theories” on certian long jump specifics are not simply things i have dreamt up. They all have a lot of substance behind them.
This is certainly not a worry of mine. I love what i do.
I have never said change technically in order to achieve height (unless technique isn’t correct) and yes you are correct there is always a trade off between speed and height. Optimals of each however are specific to the speed and power levels of the athlete.
Basic physics can not be applied to the jumps or throws…any half decent coach knows this…
The fact that you are going from a physics text book and not a BIOMACHANICS text book is the reason why your do not know what your talking about. I am sorry that you don’t understand. Really i am.
We are dealing with the HUMAN BODY here…not a Missile being launched from the ground.
So are you saying that all research, biomachanics analysis of jumps, coaching litt, kinematic long jump models etc etc are wrong? ? ?
I am shaking my head in disbelief. You are out of your mind and I am out of here…
lol…here you go ignorant one…A quote from Mike Young. I think he knows a thing or two about biomachanics…
“For instance, we can say “to be an elite jumper you need to be able to jump 8m and this can be done either by having high takeoff velocity and lower takeoff angle or lower takeoff velocity and higher takeoff angle” and it is 100% true. At the same time, it can be true to say we can’t have both maximal velocity and maximal takeoff angle. This is because the 2 variables are inextricably linked…for a given performer, as one variable goes up the other goes down.
With this in mind, what’s the best way to takeoff? Well, it kinda depends on your strengths and weaknesses. Putting the foot out far in front of the COM will definitely produce a big vertical component at takeoff. HOWEVER, it can also potentially lead to a loss of horizontal velocity, especially if the setup for that takeoff has the athlete putting the feet out in front in the last couple steps.
This brings me to another point. What is more important – takeoff velocity or takeoff height? To be honest, from a mechanical standpoint it isn’t even close. Velocity is far and away the most important variable in any projectile motion situation when distance is the primary concern. It’s not even close. Distance is a product of velocity squared (velocity x velocity) while only a product of projection angle. This means that velocity has a much bigger impact on the distance traveled. In fact, my research on the throwing events (where these questions also arise) suggest that the release velocity can explain up to 95% of the variance of a performance. Basically, that means, if you tell me what the velocity is, I can tell you whether it’s a great, good, or bad performance. The same cannot be said for takeoff or release angle.
With that said, takeoff angle IS important because if you do not achieve a minimal level projection then you won’t have the time to cover any distance through the air. This effect is amplified the further you are expecting to jump.
I’ll conclude by saying this, don’t look to physics books as they won’t tell the entire story. Athletics is about BIOmechanics….with an emphasis on the bio. We have to remember that the human organism is a living breathing machine that doesn’t operate like the perfectly mechanical physics world would have us believe. Instead there are a host of factors ranging from muscle fiber types, fiber angles, muscle insertions, joint positions, secondary limb positions, and even training state that affect what is ‘optimal’ for human movement. I am actually not aware of any circumstances where the mathematically predicted ‘optimal’ joint angles, release angles, projection angles, etc, etc are actually equivalent to the biomechanically optimal parameters. This is actually the topic of my doctoral dissertation so I feel that I can safely say that I am an expert on the issue. In a nutshell, nothing operates independently of other functions in the human body. This goes for biological processes as well as movement patterns. With that said, we can’t take one parameter, expect to hold it constant and not expect to observe changes in any other variables. Think of it as a sliding scale system with multiple variables where there’s a finite quantity to spread amongst those variables and you have to choose what combination or distribution will produce the best outcome.”
So I finally got a chance to catch myself up on this thread but I just took a look at one of pedroso’s jumps and he definitely lowers on his penultimate…
His penultimate and takeoff are ridiculously fast as his his speed and thats why he is a great jumper but to say that he doesn’t lower at all would be wrong. He gets great height but it comes from that…your thoughts…
Well i can see what your saying. But if you call this lowering then Dwight Phillips and other jumpers practically do a deep squat before take off…
This “lowering” that you can see, i do not think at all is the reason he achieves great height. This would come from his take off position and COM height and his great power and RFD at take off.
I think you are missing the big picture and didn’t fully explain yourself about horizontal velocity and vertical velocity, because if I have a horizontal velocity of zero I mess up your equation.
Something along these lines would allow those who need graph paper to see your point and work it out on their own.
Remember Kendall the COG is half way up a persons body therefore the take off angle is much lower than the 45 degrees you may expect from the ground.
This actually has very little impact on the takeoff angle. The main reason is just simply because the human body does not behave as a machine and due to various issues simply cannot generate sufficient vertical impulse when running at high speeds to attain mathematically predicted ‘optimal’ takeoff angles while still preserving peak or near peak takeoff speeds. And since velocity has a much larger impact on performance (speaking strictly from a projectile motion standpoint) it’s more important to jump at 18-24 degree angles than run slow enough to allow yourself to take off at higher takeoff angles that approach mathematically predicted ‘optimal’ values.
I have noticed something interesting in Pedroso’s take off mechanics, if you look at his take off foot prior the backwards grab it’s very noticeable that he has much more dorsiflexion and foot height in comparison with other jumpers. Carl Lewis also used this kind of mechanics in his late years:
Dorsiflexion? Of the non-grounded leg?
If that is the case, such a move would increase the plantarflexion of the grounded leg via reflexive pathways which are extremely sensitive in the shank muscles due to locomotion being fundamental to survival. This would enhance launch velocity.
Dorsiflexion? Of the non-grounded leg?
If that is the case, such a move would increase the plantarflexion of the grounded leg via reflexive pathways which are extremely sensitive in the shank muscles due to locomotion being fundamental to survival. This would enhance launch velocity.
He dorsiflexes a lot in the last step his take off leg, much more than the average dorsiflexion you see in every jumper. I have seen the same mechanics in many people jumping very far given for their physical capabilities (i.e. 16 y.o. jumping 7.50m or 19 y.o 8.18m).
So it’s some kind of action-reaction? Big dorsiflexion of the take off foot > plantar flexion of penultimate step leg > more “forward thrust”.
If his penultimate is watched in slow motion and from a front view it’s also noticeable that he strikes toe first instead of using the normal heel-toe action.
[quote author="Jeremy Richmond" date="1230844461"]
Dorsiflexion? Of the non-grounded leg?
If that is the case, such a move would increase the plantarflexion of the grounded leg via reflexive pathways which are extremely sensitive in the shank muscles due to locomotion being fundamental to survival. This would enhance launch velocity.
He dorsiflexes a lot in the last step his take off leg, much more than the average dorsiflexion you see in every jumper. I have seen the same mechanics in many people jumping very far given for their physical capabilities (i.e. 16 y.o. jumping 7.50m or 19 y.o 8.18m).
So it’s some kind of action-reaction? Big dorsiflexion of the take off foot > plantar flexion of penultimate step leg > more “forward thrust”.
If his penultimate is watched in slow motion and from a front view it’s also noticeable that he strikes toe first instead of using the normal heel-toe action.[/quote]
If he dorsiflexes the foot before using the same leg to launch then it is the stretch reflex that he is trying to engage. This will vary according to flexibility from person to person and there will be an optimum. However, everyone will get better stretch reflex response from concentrating on toe dorsiflexion. And you will only get action-reaction in the opposite leg if each leg is going in separate directions (cross-extension reflex). If anyone is thinking of trying this a word of warning. Go easy, don’t think too much or you’ll trip over or something like that.
I found out about a month ago that when you have the take off leg high in front of you and bent in an angle of about 90º and you try to “kick” the ground backwards that big dorsiflexion happens naturally.
But it plays a role in how high or low the angle is…
Very little…probably about 1-1.5 degrees.
If take off angle was measured from the ground achieving a much higher angle, would be much easier no?
Yeah but takeoff angle isn’t measured like that. All projectile motion equations work using the vertical and horizontal displacement of the object or bodies COM from the horizontal plane of the ground. If it’s easier to conceptualize, think of the COM as a single point that represents the athlete (and their movement). With this in mind, it doesn’t matter that the ground is ~1m below the COM. Instead of thinking of the ground when you determine launch angle…think of a horizontal plane parallel with the ground at the same level as the COM at takeoff.
While refering to dorsiflexion on take off Jeremy stated
If that is the case, such a move would increase the plantarflexion of the grounded leg via reflexive pathways which are extremely sensitive in the shank muscles due to locomotion being fundamental to survival. This would enhance launch velocity.
(…)
And you will only get action-reaction in the opposite leg if each leg is going in separate directions (cross-extension reflex).
So what I understand from this is that dorsiflexion you get a stretch reflex that is also noticeable in the penultimate leg, so that you get extra forward push exactly when you normaly loose forward momentum, thus being the total deceleration smaller. In my very little experimentation with dorsiflexion I also felt that it greatly increased hamstring and glute involvement. I just had one single (and season’s last) training session from short approaches and I felt that the take off power was ridicously greater with this technique.
It now makes me think that when we had the pull / push discussion someone stated that Pedroso’s quads couldn’t be seen contracting during the initial take off backwards movement, thus meaning it had to be either a pull or a push (I don’t remember now). I realize now he completely used his quad / hamstring group in this phase.
“Thrust” is a word we use a lot in aeronautics, f.e. engine thrust. the definition is: “Thrust is a reaction force; When a system expels or accelerates mass in one direction the accelerated mass will cause a proportional but opposite force on that system”. It’s the most suitable word I could find in my limited english knowledge.
Another example is getting vertical thrust through usage of arms: stand on a scale and pump your arms in a take off fashion, the weight reading will increase. That’s because only with help of your arms you were able to apply force to the ground. On take off that force gets transfered through your take off leg and is vertical thrust that pushes you upwards.
[quote author="Nick Newman" date="1230426488"]But it plays a role in how high or low the angle is…
Very little…probably about 1-1.5 degrees.
If take off angle was measured from the ground achieving a much higher angle, would be much easier no?
Yeah but takeoff angle isn’t measured like that. All projectile motion equations work using the vertical and horizontal displacement of the object or bodies COM from the horizontal plane of the ground. If it’s easier to conceptualize, think of the COM as a single point that represents the athlete (and their movement). With this in mind, it doesn’t matter that the ground is ~1m below the COM. Instead of thinking of the ground when you determine launch angle…think of a horizontal plane parallel with the ground at the same level as the COM at takeoff.[/quote]
I’ve always been saying take off angle ISNT measured from the groud. Someone else said that…
I’ve been saying the fact that it is measured from the COM of the body makes it different than a normal physics equation…among the other reasons you said.
Remember Kendall the COG is half way up a persons body therefore the take off angle is much lower than the 45 degrees you may expect from the ground.
Bounding, hopping, plyometrics, slow downward movement during the deep squat, stiff legged jumps, static landing from box drops….these are a few things that will help you in this area…
And for andersheha…There are acticles on this website that you should read to give you a better understanding of what a take off angle is and how it is very important to trajectory in the jumps.
I’d just like a little clarity on these exercises, Nick. I know about bounding into the sound, plyometrics, and deep squats. What’s the difference between bounding and hopping. Do you mean hopping as in just normal hopping up and down, jump squats, weighted jumps? Also stiff legged jumps and “static landing from box drops.” Is there anything else I could at home since many of these require either a gym or a pit.
Hopping meaning single leg bounds…but you also meaning very low intense bounding/ hopping forward only using ankle/ calf etc (so keeping leg straight)…
Stiff legged vertical jumps – just vertical jumps but with an emphasis to have very little leg bend when landing
Static drops – You can drop of a chair and land stiff on one leg. Chair doesn’t need to be very high.
weighted jumps – if you have some dumbells at home you can use them.
Hopping meaning single leg bounds…but you also meaning very low intense bounding/ hopping forward only using ankle/ calf etc (so keeping leg straight)…
Stiff legged vertical jumps – just vertical jumps but with an emphasis to have very little leg bend when landing
Static drops – You can drop of a chair and land stiff on one leg. Chair doesn’t need to be very high.
weighted jumps – if you have some dumbells at home you can use them.
I think I understand what you mean when you say I’m lacking elastic strength since you put a lot of emphasis on one-legged workouts. Most of these workouts emphasize the ability to maintain stiffness when you’re jumping on a certain leg. I didn’t realize this until now, but I’ve got a lot more elastic strength in my right leg (which holds the most power when I go for a two-legged jump) than my left leg (the leg that I jump off of).
I guess you could say that my right leg has become more dominant in elastic strength because I “use it more often in everyday life” or rather in the application of two-legged activites and workouts like squats my right leg is used more than my left. I was always convinced this had something to do with right handedness versus left handedness (since I’m right handed).
My question to you though is, if I’m not training my thigh flexors or elastic strength in my less efficient leg with the workouts you prescribed, then what am I training, muscle memory? And how long do you think it will take for my left leg to have as much elastic strength as my right leg if I did these exercises everyday?
No such thing as muscle memory but thats for a different thread…i know what you mean though…
The development of elastic strength is very hard. I would say just as hard as developing speed. Workouts for this purpose are very high intensity and are as much about training the Central Nervous System as the muscles involved therfore you can’t really do it everyday. Possibly you can if the intensities are varied each day. But for max benifit high intensity/ max effort is needed.
Until this season my non LJ take off leg was my best bounding/ reactive leg. And after a good winter training my LJ take off leg is noe equal or better than my other one. I believe that while you are doing the same amount of work on both legs, if you key in your mind and focus more during the weaker leg jumps that leg will improve quicker than it would normally. It shouldnt take you too long.
No such thing as muscle memory but thats for a different thread…i know what you mean though…
The development of elastic strength is very hard. I would say just as hard as developing speed. Workouts for this purpose are very high intensity and are as much about training the Central Nervous System as the muscles involved therfore you can’t really do it everyday. Possibly you can if the intensities are varied each day. But for max benifit high intensity/ max effort is needed.
Until this season my non LJ take off leg was my best bounding/ reactive leg. And after a good winter training my LJ take off leg is noe equal or better than my other one. I believe that while you are doing the same amount of work on both legs, if you key in your mind and focus more during the weaker leg jumps that leg will improve quicker than it would normally. It shouldnt take you too long.
1. How much did your overall long jump increase after that season of training?
2. Do you think it’s possible to have significant increases in my long jump by May?
3. What intensities did you do these exercises at or what was your workout schedule?
4. Should I continue developing my hamstrings and thigh flexors?
5. A lot of people have this problem of having a stronger bounding leg than a takeoff leg, why not just switch to the other leg? Would people with this problem be good candidates for the triple jump?
Oh damn, 64 more pages of reading material (lol) and I’m already reading and evaluating “What is the most direct means to achieve strength gains specific to the demands of jumping events.” Btw, this article is about elite elite long jump athletes like Saladino, not Junior athletes? Because I saw in there that average standing long jump is about 3.3m. That sounds a little exaggerated don’t you think? Well, I can’t really say much since I’m not an elite anything.
The article did not talk about the ideal landing technique. The landing that Phillips and Lewis used is not ideal at all.
Their hips are not forward which means its impossible for them to be maximizing reach distance.
Also, the training that was written is of only one style…the majority of the world does not train that way. I actually do however!
So it isn’t the bible of LJ by any means…
Saladino, Al sabee (sp), gomes etc, their landings are ideal.
i have a testing data set take from UK athletics…the results are taken from a wider variety of levels and more tests taken over the last 10 years…
thats a good article on the long jump….does anybody have an article or know how mike powell used to train…because i heard somwere he was very strong in the squat and clean…but another person me told he didnt lift at all…
I know Powell used machines (kruger/smith? or sthg of air driven machines)a lot for his training.
It seems to me that the double hitch kick makes achieving good landing positions pretty difficult. F.e.: Lewis, Howe, Philips. All those guys with excellent landings are either single hitchkickers or hangers.
Btw, where the ass lands is more or less where the COG lands and the practical maximal achievable distance?
Yeah your right..check out some vids of Gaisha though, he did double hitch with a kick out landing…was pretty good..
he just did the hitch small and fast…
and what do you mean? Where the ass lands is no where close to where the feet CAN land and therefore you are losing alot of distance…
The guy’s feet land like a foot in front of him, but due to the flight path angle it looks as if it would be imposible for his torso to reach the mark of the feet.
That video is a great example of a miss timed landing..
You see his butt mark which was at 8.19m. But if he had kicked down with feet a little harder to push his hips forward more, his mark would have been his feet mark (around 8.40-50)…this has been my problem all year…
if you look at his other videos, sometimes his feet and butt mark are all along the same line!
The inverse situation? His ass landed at 9.5m +/-.
Btw compare his attack on the board with the other jump of “just” 8.73m. It’s the only jump of him in which he really attacks the board, in all the others he kinda slows down.
This is getting me lost, lol. I always thought that a good landing is whenever the butt and leg marks are parallel to each other. So how do you depict a good landing?
The guy’s feet land like a foot in front of him, but due to the flight path angle it looks as if it would be imposible for his torso to reach the mark of the feet.
Or?
I call for take-off mechanics dissection of this guys jump. To me, the way he runs and takes off does not match with a 8+ m jump.
Remember he is very tall and he is running very fast although it doesn’t look like it. Put that with his high COG at take off and good lift and he’s jumping far!
it doesn’t even look like his hips get projected beyond the board. And that leg kick … I’d get yelled at, followed by a biomechanics lesson if I did it like that. Then again, I’m far from 8m. I’ll try growing a little taller.
I know Powell used machines (kruger/smith? or sthg of air driven machines)a lot for his training.
He used Kasier pneumatic resistance machines. They are one of the few machines I would use if I had them. They were big in the 80s made a little comeback not too long ago and seemed to have faded away a little again.
It seems to me that the double hitch kick makes achieving good landing positions pretty difficult. F.e.: Lewis, Howe, Philips. All those guys with excellent landings are either single hitchkickers or hangers.
You do realize that you’re saying that the top 2 guys ever and the arguably 3 of the top 10 ever are inefficient. Most applied statisticians would say you’ve got it backwards. I actually think they all have quite good landings.
Btw, where the ass lands is more or less where the COG lands and the practical maximal achievable distance?
No not really. In the LJ and TJ you can achieve a recorded distance considerably further than the COM is projected. In fact, that is the point of the latter parts of this discussion it would seem.
So if you have a higher COG, you get farther? (Giving the advantage to tall people)
Yes if all else is equal but to be honest the height of projection is actually quite negligible among the range of athletes in a normal height range. What is extra beneficial and related to height of COM is that the person with a higher COM typically has longer legs. This means they can project the hips further in front of the toe before takeoff and project the feet further in front of the COM at landing. This can be fairly significant.
You do realize that you’re saying that the top 2 guys ever and the arguably 3 of the top 10 ever are inefficient. Most applied statisticians would say you’ve got it backwards. I actually think they all have quite good landings.
I have always had the impression that Lewis landed more or less standing up, more or less like Howe does. But I won’t discuss this anymore, there are too many arguments proving I am wrong.
No such thing as muscle memory but thats for a different thread…i know what you mean though…
The development of elastic strength is very hard. I would say just as hard as developing speed. Workouts for this purpose are very high intensity and are as much about training the Central Nervous System as the muscles involved therfore you can’t really do it everyday. Possibly you can if the intensities are varied each day. But for max benifit high intensity/ max effort is needed.
Until this season my non LJ take off leg was my best bounding/ reactive leg. And after a good winter training my LJ take off leg is noe equal or better than my other one. I believe that while you are doing the same amount of work on both legs, if you key in your mind and focus more during the weaker leg jumps that leg will improve quicker than it would normally. It shouldnt take you too long.
Nick, I have question about some of the workouts you gave me. They have helped so much. I’ve been doing the workouts ever since you told me what they were and I can feel that it is much easier for me to get A LOT of height off of a high velocity jump. But what’s been worrying me is my left ankle. As I said before, my left leg is my weaker leg and my takeoff leg. The probably normally happens when I’m doing hops on my left leg, my ankle tightens up and then I have to stop. I’ve been doing the workouts you prescribed with both legs but with more of an emphasis on my left thinking that it was the one that needed it more. I do get more height when it doesn’t endure prolonged jumping activity like a quick bound, but using it after a while, it starts to get really fatigued and tight. Should I just stay off of it for a few days?
Edit: It’s not exactly my ankle, it’s the area right above it.
Im glad your doing well. Do not over do it, no need to hammer it hard everyday….every other day is enough!
I wouldnt do either leg more than the other…
also, make sure your strengthening your ankles in all directions…(with a band for example, or towel…3×10 each way for example…everyday or every other day)
If you slow down the video you will notice that her hips a not as far back at touch down as it appears at full speed. Other than the posture, her arms sweep back nicely,decent leg shoot,gives at ankle, knees, and hip at group contact.
leg shoot is nice yeah…but imagine that same leg shoot with the hips infront of the shoulders when feet hit sand. (like gomes, al sabee, saladino etc) another foot or so on the jump.
Im glad your doing well. Do not over do it, no need to hammer it hard everyday….every other day is enough!
I wouldnt do either leg more than the other…
also, make sure your strengthening your ankles in all directions…(with a band for example, or towel…3×10 each way for example…everyday or every other day)
and ice after each workout…
I talked to a friend yesterday and he confirmed that it’s not actually my ankle that’s hurting, but my lower calf. It seems to tighten up a lot and hurt, but this only happens when I’m doing exercises like single-leg hops. I can still do calf raises fine. I iced it a few nights ago and it still seems to be at it, not at the intensity as it was though. I’ve completely stopped the eccentric workouts for now. Should I keep icing it everyday or stop running for a while? Also, I’ve got a meet coming up next Wednesday.
Yeah, I think not giving it a rest was the thing because I only iced for like 2 days expecting to come back 100% the next day.
I’m fine now though. I iced my calf the entire weekend and tried to keep as more pressure off of it as possible; didn’t even run until yesterday. It’s perfect, 100% again. Ice will definitely be used for this and other very strenuous workouts.
His penultimate is extremelly interesting. He hits directly under his COG with toe first, so that when the foot makes contact with the ground his take off leg is past the contacting leg, so that he creates some kind of acceleration throughout the jump (just try it and you will feel it).
That way he reduces the normally incresed GCT of the penultimate since the jumping leg is in front of the COG at the moment of penultimate touch down, taking less time for the rest of the body to travel over the planted foot.
His free leg also remain flexed in front of him almost until the top of the jump, he doesn’t swing it backwards immediatly.
FIIIIIIIIAAAAAAAAAAVVVVVVVAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAA can you translatE!!!!!! ppplllllease? 🙂
His coach says he is running faster than ever (in leichtathletik.de it was said he was running 10.6 m/s in the NC), that he hadn’t done many jumps in practice but that he was jumping really comfortable over 8m, he had something extra in the tank.
Bayer says the runway was built over woods, so that it was interesting to run in it. The track was a Mondo, the same one as in Beijing. He also says the spanish federative president had obvious interest in preserving Lamelas ER when he said his jump was “not real”.
I am talking about what happens to his right foot at 1:12 in this video:
[youtube]nRJzYQ_4HFg[/youtube]
It happens when you push forwards and pronate simultaneously, it’s not groin nor knee friendly (and more if you have spikes on). It kinda looks like a javelin twist.
His goals for 2009 are to qualify for the world championships (8.15m) and to be one of the top 3 German long jumpers.
Good to see he’s staying modest. Also, his coach said that he believes that Sebastian can jump even farther, but it sounded like he’s aware that this will most likely not happen in the near future.
If I’m understanding the description correctly, I’m actually from the ‘passive’ school of thought on the LJ takeoff as this was what I was taught from some of the most successful jumps coaches in history. While I don’t really like reach and pull takeoffs, Nick likes to think very active takeoff. I rarely see him do it to the point where the movement outcome is something I’d consider a red flag so I don’t really address it. Basically, if it’s not a problem don’t worry about it. Nick has an internal cueing system that works for him that externally produces the movement pattern that I like and the fact that I don’t like the thought process he’s using to achieve it is irrelevant in my mind.
One thing I think that we do agree on is that there’s a fine line of attacking the last couple steps for Nick. When it’s too passive you get jumps like he had at UK indoor trials where the run is pretty and nice but he’s not bringing any heat. When it’s too aggressive you see other problems like you see in what he did in the slow mo video (hunkers down, runs squatty, sticks the foot way out, etc). In general, I think Nick jumps better when he’s on the more aggressive side of that continuum. This is contrary to how I normally teach the approach run, where I like to see big effort through the first 20-25m or so and then just have the athlete run tall, relaxed and bouncy. With Nick, he is naturally a big front side, bouncy runner so it seems to help if he’s just a hair more on the aggressive / attack side then I have any of my other jumpers do.
I don’t see this passive take off with Walter when he long jumps or when Moffit was at his best. I assume your talking about Boo who taught you about this?
Can you explain your thoughts on the passive take off a little more.
[url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16939149]Immediate effects of the use of modified take-off boards on the take-off motion of the long jump during training.[/url]
It would be great if someone could get the full text.
I’m sure I can get it. I am an invited editor for the journal. I’m guessing I can have it within next couple days. The article is interesting because the ramp inclination is MUCH less than what is commercially available. The 2.5 degree incline would be barely visible. I’m not a big fan of the typical boxes and ramps used for this type of thing in the long jump but they would seem to be an altogether different animal than those used in this study.
I don’t see this passive take off with Walter when he long jumps or when Moffit was at his best. I assume your talking about Boo who taught you about this?
Can you explain your thoughts on the passive take off a little more.
I mean that we don’t want to see a takeoff with a big stomp or active raking or clawing back prior to touchdown. Also foot placements >18-24 inches (depending on size of athlete) forward of COM should be avoided. Following takeoff the body must move actively over the foot through extension of the hip, knee, and ankle but these actions are often established by the dynamics of the run in the final steps.
I was reading something today and it sparked me to think back to what i had wrote during this thread…
It was always my belief (and still is) that the correct take off action is one where the athletes take off leg is placed well in front and his CM and one which actively sweeps back upon contact…
So, in research study and also review of other studies,
Lees, A., Graham-Smith, P., and Fowler, N (1991). Analysis of Men’s long jump. Journal of Applied Biomachanics, (1): 61-78.
I’ll highlight main points to do with what i was saying. Through studies looking at elite long jumpers from 88 Olympics, 87 World Champs, 91 World Student Games and some others it was observed that,
* The take off leg was placed far ahead of the CM becuase a) enabling an increase in time period during which vertical impulse can be generated, b) increasing the range of movement through which hip entensor muscles may work, and c) placing the leg in a position to enable it to be stretched and store elastic energy.
Koh and Hay 1990 also found that all of the elite subjects they studied demonstrated an active pull back during take off. The best pull back motions were with a straight take off leg and not through the bending of the knee. The better elite jumpers show a faster backwards sweep of the take off leg than the lesser elite and therefore showed a minimal effect of breaking at take off.
They state the most important aspect of the take off is leg stiffness throughout the plant, pull back and pivot.
They also state the obvious (but someone argued with me about this) that there is “clearly” a trade off between horizontal velocity and take off angle and vertical velocity.
The take off leg was placed far ahead of the CM becuase a) enabling an increase in time period during which vertical impulse can be generated, b) increasing the range of movement through which hip entensor muscles may work, and c) placing the leg in a position to enable it to be stretched and store elastic energy.
Because in a study where they are looking at inches and the foot is 18 inches in front, I would guess that that is considered “far” in front. After listening to one of Boo’s video from the athleticscanada page, it makes me think of the point he brings up in that you want to tell and teach to put it down under your hips…but that’s not what you are going to see.
Something else related to take off which i wanted others thoughts on…
One of my main problem with take off is not having full control over my free leg…i want it to go straight forward with my free leg foot up and forward as well…
However, it comes across my body very often and my foot even more so points inward during take off.
I realise that I don’t consciously control it though, I just let it swing out. Do you think the free leg should be controlled on purpose, ie the foot tensed with all related muscles contracting during take off?
I would venture a guess that your foot will approach the midline more often than not. With your running style and slight deviation to the side with your 2nd to last step, your lowers limb will most likely approach the midline. Even if you were to take the jump straight on, the rotation of the hips at TO are going to bring the limbs towards the center line.
Boo does talk about controlling the free leg to control the jump, so I am sure there is some merit to an active approach. Not something that I would emphasize in a meet situation, but maybe drills and short approaches.
Why would it be bad thing to actively control the free leg/foot during take off in your opinion? It’s ok to control the take off leg but not the free leg?
Not saying it is a bad thing. I do coach my athletes to control rotation with the distal limbs, but the focus always remains on TO during meet situations. Control of the free leg will aide in your ability to create an effective landing by controlling rotation.
Most of the problems will begin prior to flight, so if you are landing well at the moment, then it is not a concern. Do you feel as though greater control of your free will enhance your current landing?
Yeah, my free leg screws everything up really…i understand that my penultimate is possibly to blame for that…
but, look at many top guys who also side step the penultimate, (Lewis for sure) and they still have a straight free leg – flight – landing so i think the free leg really plays a big role in terms of balance etc after take off…
On Sun, i was able to land straight…but was fighting it becuase the free leg was all over the place…and also, clearly we want ALL momentum going up and forwards, so an active, agressive, forward free leg SHOULD aid the jump in someway? Don’t you think?
