i have to replace a good friend and great hurdle coach this year. i am trying to figure out how i want to teach the hurdles. when i coached the hurdles years ago i drilled and drilled and drilled specific parts of hurdling but now i am considering doing less drills and more whole hurdling. i heard Gary Winckler speak a few years ago and he emphasized the importance of the whole concept of hurdling and i guess he changed my way of thinking. what do you guys think?
teaching the hurdles … part or whole?
-
-
Participant
I would use both….I use various hurdle drills to develop specific flexibility, kinesthetics and proprioception. All along the way I’m doing “complete” hurdling at heights lower then competition set at spacings that are shorter than competition.
Hope that helps
-
KeymasterI’d focus on whole concept for true competition ready technique. Part practice is better for beginners or if there’s a serious problem that you want to focus on that can actually be worked in the same manner as what you’d see in full hurdling. In many cases, you can make a drill (part practice) look like the movement that we see in the full activity but the resemblance is primarily just cosmetic. Having said that, I use hurdle ‘drills’ as part of my warmup to develop mobility in the hip area, coordination, rhythm and kinesthetic awareness.
Definitely go with the close, short hurdle spacing. This is really important for developing hurdle rhythm.
ELITETRACK Founder
-
Participant
I’d focus on whole concept for true competition ready technique. Part practice is better for beginners .
i figured whole practice would be better for beginners – something like “bricks and sticks”. that way they understand the entire concept of sprinting over the hurdles.
-
Participant
I see what you are saying there hscoach but hurdling is quite complex and with beginners you do not want them to develop bad habits that need to be corrected later. If you begin with parts they can begin to master each part before putting it all together.
-
Participant
Teaching theory suggests whole-part-whole. That doesn’t mean you have to start with 39′ or 33′ hurdles, but you can and should start with the whole hurdle process at lower heights and other activities which improve dynamic flexibility and mobility and not cue them in context of the hurdling. Once they start clearing 33′ and 30′ respectively for boys and girls is when you can work on parts. You also have to teach the acceleration phase in hurdling as a whole concept as well (1st 3 hurdles). You can start teaching rhythm by using 18′ hurdles with appropriate spacing till they get the hang of 3 stepping.
-
Keymaster
Teaching theory suggests whole-part-whole.
I believe motor learning suggests that part-whole is best for beginners learning a complex task (like hurdling).
ELITETRACK Founder
-
Participant
I dunno if I agree with part-whole . . . I am more inclined to choose whole (but a very simple version)-part-whole method when possible.
With triple-jumpers would you teach each individual phase or begin with standing triple?
Trail leg drill or low hurdle?
Earl Bell has his beginning jumpers do as much as a full vault as possible from 2 steps to start.
-
Participant
I would use both….I use various hurdle drills to develop specific flexibility, kinesthetics and proprioception. All along the way I’m doing “complete” hurdling at heights lower then competition set at spacings that are shorter than competition.
Randy = Winkler-jedi (meant as a positive)
CFKA (Allerton 03)
-
Participant
I dunno if I agree with part-whole . . . I am more inclined to choose whole (but a very simple version)-part-whole method when possible.
With triple-jumpers would you teach each individual phase or begin with standing triple?
Trail leg drill or low hurdle?
Earl Bell has his beginning jumpers do as much as a full vault as possible from 2 steps to start.
“whole part whole” to my view would be whole, with off-line specific addressing of defective “part(s)” while continuing to work the whole…
Come out to Vegas in December and listen to Dr Wu. No not the one made famous by Steely Dan, but the one who is an expert on motor learning. Continuing the musical references, I had the honor of being his “opening act” this past summer and in his session he spoke to the very topic we discuss here.
-
Participant
Don’t get me wrong, but I believe I outlined how to do such a skill in a simplified manner (lower obstacle height), hurdling is sprinting while overcoming obstacles at a set height and set interval distance. Replace the hurdles with obstacles of lower heights and the skill can be completed in whole. As the athlete gains competence the obstacle height can be raised. The best motor learning is done at the speed at which the movement is to be executed. Working on ancillary parts such as dynamic flexibility and mobility drills don’t need to be cued in the context of hurdling as that would likely interfere. The only way someone is going to become efficient and proficient is complete more repetitions and lowering the height for beginners allows them to do more repetitions. Once you can get someone on real hurdles is when the parts should come, but I see too many kids 4 and 5 stepping because they never learned rhythm or the ability to clear an obstacle with competence.
So I have to agree with Chad on this. Simplify the task requirements where the protective mechanisms are not stressed to the point of coming into play. The spinal cord can figure out the patterns needed if done enough.
-
Participant
“whole part whole” to my view would be whole, with off-line specific addressing of defective “part(s)” while continuing to work the whole…
So essentially, whether we phrase it “whole-part-whole” or “part-whole”, the whole movement is addressed in both cases.
Come out to Vegas in December and listen to Dr Wu. No not the one made famous by Steely Dan, but the one who is an expert on motor learning. Continuing the musical references, I had the honor of being his “opening act” this past summer and in his session he spoke to the very topic we discuss here.
Will you be repeating your “song and dance” in Vegas as well? PM me the info on the conference.
-
Participant
I believe it’s not part or whole, it is part AND whole.
Where the emphasis lies depends on many factors:
– beginner or advanced
– time of the season
– weaknesses and strengths
– purpose of the training session
– etc.Don’t get lost in drills, I have known athletes who could do drills very well, but performed poorly while running the hurdles. Still drills are an important part of hurdle training. But as always, the proof is in the pudding. Running the hurdles is essential.
-
Participant
-
Participant
If I have a “thing”, coaching hurdles is it. It is the combination of the technical/art and, perhaps selfishly, the need to have an observer/coach when hurdling which means I always have something to do.
I have had the very good fortune along the way to attend clinics where G. Winckler and Boo Schexnayder were both presenting and I wish I was involved earlier so I could have met instead of just reading Wilbur Ross’s work. As well I count many other IMO very good hurdle coaches among mentor contacts.
I mention those names not to name drop but with each of those contacts and those unnamed, my thinking regarding teaching hurdles changed, sometimes a bit, sometimes a lot and much on this website has gone into reinforcing or debating certain aspects. So I find this discussion very interesting, thanks all.I have found, generally, once there is a basic understanding (knowing how similar good running mechanics and hurdling are, lead/trail of both arms and legs primarily through what are most often described as hurdle drills but very much so that further coaching using those reference points is clear) and when you can see there is no fear in using speed going at a barrier, that overall time is better spent doing “full” hurdle runs (various rhythms, various heights and including in a mix of lead legs). But then, as the athlete advances, I suspect (this is where a particular athlete I have in mind is at right now) the need for more exact “drills” returns.
A personal situation I recall that I will likely never forget was going to a camp with quite a few other competent age group hurdlers where the progression of the camp lead all athletes through various drills. The athlete I coached was among those least proficient but not as it turns out because he was not a good advanced but beginning hurdler, but because it is not our/my MO to spend tons of time doing “drills”. He knows the “basics” but I view my job as helping to get him over hurdles to be competitive not to have him be the “best” at any particular drill. I use hurdle drills, as Mike mentioned above, far more often for mobility than actual hurdle specific work.
I must say one of the very common things I have seen that I have not “understood” is doing a lot of hurdle work beside/adjacent to the hurdle (as opposed to going over the center). The explanation given, that it allows you to focus on that or fewer aspects at once, I understand but I am sorry, I just have trouble convincing myself to agree with it. One of the basic premises is to make training as similar to competition as possible and I just do not “get” how being able to go at near full speed beside yet “at” a hurdle and then just do lead (or trail) has advantages compared to going over the center. Am I being that obtuse? -
Participant
Russ, I agree with you that I don’t see the usefulness either of running hurdles with only lead or trail leg! You do that in your drills, but for the running – I don’t see it!
I have an idea where it comes from: coaches do what other coaches/hurdlers have done. I have a video of Guy Drut, the first man to run 13.0 in the sprint hurdles. That was a long time ago (Guy won gold in the Montreal Olympics in 1976). In the video you see him do the side of the hurdle running drills. I personally don’t use them (my athletes even cannot do it, I ask them once in a while to try it for fun, and they fail – and I am not going to spend the time to teach them). I see other coaches use the side of the hurdle running, but hey, their athletes still have never beaten mine 🙂 -
Participant
i use a combination of drills and runthroughs. i use the drills mostly as a warmup, but with beginning hurdlers i also use them to teach the basic mechanics.
Viewing 16 reply threads
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.