[trackspeedboy]

trackspeedboy on March 7, 2010 at 8:58 am #16585

The technical problem is going side to side a lot. Any coach who’s seen me run (every single one) + most guys I train with or compete against, tell me my arms don’t come up, and coaches also add on I’m going side to side way too much and that I lose time on every stride because of it.

Now my coaches… they say during the drive phase coming side to side, with the arms a bit to the side, isn’t a big problem, and one even says it can be good. However they all say when I’m upright, i’m going a lot side to side and it’s a major problem and costing me time (in the 60m).

Main advice I’ve gotten is to bring my arms up (currently my arms are low and go out to the side). I’ve also gotten “run on a line on the track, instead of in the lane.”

So during a meet, in the heats I run 7.39 (pb is 7.30). Then have a big convo about this problem, and during the next round, I basically changed my whole thing. I tried to keep my legs from going side to side completely (even during the drive phase), and brought my arms up a lot.

Result:

7.37 (only 0.02 faster, although I had better start in heats)

drive phase – didn’t feel powerful, it was okay though compared to the competition but not very fast compared to the heats

top speed – I felt like I was catching up, strides sort of felt longer, overall it didn’t feel natural and quite akward to run like that

This has been a problem for quite some time (it was really bad last indoor season around the same time).
Everyone continously tells me at every practice to fix this.

So anyway, whats your guys’ thoughts? Is this some sort of imbalance (strength)? Tightness issue somewhere (although I feel quite flexible nowadays)?
Do I just gotta run enough focusing on proper technique for this to fix itself?

Submaximal/int. tempo sessions would help? drills… anything.

[Nick Newman]

Nick Newman on March 7, 2010 at 1:12 pm #95581

I had same problem before…i just concentrated on fully driving my knees straight forward up and out…Slowing down my frequency a bit but fully extending my strides…this fixed the problem for me.

[trackspeedboy]

trackspeedboy on March 7, 2010 at 1:37 pm #95582

I had same problem before…i just concentrated on fully driving my knees straight forward up and out…Slowing down my frequency a bit but fully extending my strides…this fixed the problem for me.

Ya I think I know exactly what you’re talking about. What about the arms problem though? I’ve gotten SOO many comments on that.
Did fixing the problem have a large impact on your times?

[Nick Newman]

Nick Newman on March 7, 2010 at 1:47 pm #95583

Yeah i’d say…i went from 4.03 over 30m to 3.82. Obviously training helped as well but my technique over my first 5-10m used to be horrible! no it’s much more smooth…

I’m not sure about your arms, id hav to see them…But i’m something who thinks arm actions needs to be natural and comfortable. I don’t really think it changes speed at all.

[davan]

davan on March 7, 2010 at 2:21 pm #95585

Big changes from one race to the other in the same meet = nothing greatly positive is going to come of it. Judging from your other videos, you’re running tight. How much is ‘fixing’ it going to improve your 60m? Probably not as much as you’d hope–maybe a tenth at most. More importantly, it’ll keep you healthy, make sure you don’t burn out during a 100m/200m, and help you continue to improve.

[davan]

davan on March 7, 2010 at 2:26 pm #95586

Also, post video if you want anything useful. Just describing something in a subjective manner won’t help much at all.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on March 7, 2010 at 3:09 pm #95588

Error correction starts with error identification. The only thing we know is the symptom. Most, but not all the time the symptom of side to side movement of the arms belies a problem at the hip which results in a problem at footstrike which results in bad arm swing. This can occur for a variety of reasons.

1. Lack of mobility about the hip.
2. deficient strength in the torso (core to include back) to stabilize the torso about the hips in relation to forces while sprinting.
3. deficient strength/power in the musculature about the hip to sustain or increase velocity efficiently.

Best way to correct this problem is develop an all-around program which includes dynamic flex and mobility drills, has core work interspersed throughout every workout, and have a lifting program which includes squats and deadlifts. Correct such problems doesn’t happen overnight and changes are not noticeable from week to week or month to month without the aid of video. I would also concentrate less on trying too hard with each step at max velocity (ie don’t run full blast all the time).

[trackspeedboy]

trackspeedboy on March 7, 2010 at 3:24 pm #95589

Big changes from one race to the other in the same meet = nothing greatly positive is going to come of it. Judging from your other videos, you’re running tight. How much is ‘fixing’ it going to improve your 60m? Probably not as much as you’d hope–maybe a tenth at most. More importantly, it’ll keep you healthy, make sure you don’t burn out during a 100m/200m, and help you continue to improve.

Those videos are quite old, I havent been able to get new vids up of me sprinting lately.
But burning out has been a huge issue for me, in outdoor.

[Linas82]

Linas82 on March 7, 2010 at 7:08 pm #95591

At the college level, his coach tried to “correct” his arm swing, without success.

Attempts at correction would have the potential to do more harm than good in the absence of any knowledge regarding his neurological hard wiring, attachments points, assymetries, etc.

[Craig Pickering]

Craig Pickering on March 7, 2010 at 8:05 pm #95592

I think if you swing side to side quite a bit when you are running, it is down to back/core strength, as Daniel Andrews mentions. I used to rock quite a bit, as did other members of my training group, and when we introduced a core session 2x per week, our technique tightened up a lot, which was positive.

In terms of the arm swing, I generally think that the arm swing is a result of something else happening somewhere in the body, like tight hips, and that by fixing your arm swing wont actually change the problem.

Obviously, I have said all this without seeing you run, so take it with a pinch of salt!

[trackspeedboy]

trackspeedboy on March 8, 2010 at 3:26 am #95598

I think if you swing side to side quite a bit when you are running, it is down to back/core strength, as Daniel Andrews mentions. I used to rock quite a bit, as did other members of my training group, and when we introduced a core session 2x per week, our technique tightened up a lot, which was positive.

In terms of the arm swing, I generally think that the arm swing is a result of something else happening somewhere in the body, like tight hips, and that by fixing your arm swing wont actually change the problem.

Obviously, I have said all this without seeing you run, so take it with a pinch of salt!

The arm swing comments, come with two “parts.” One is my elbows coming out, the other is my arms not coming high.

I’ve figured myself that im not going to try and bring in the elbows, and coach says so too as well for that. So should I also not try to manually bring my arms UP (near face level) vs. arms staying low?

Just overall core work also would be useful? Cause I’ve done quite alot of rotational core work.

Bt one thing though, is rocking side to side potentially good for the drive phase? And when in speed endurance running, is it essentially causing me to slow down quicker than if i didnt rock?

[ex400]

ex400 on March 8, 2010 at 3:55 am #95599

How are your thumbs positioned? If they are not straight up, try that. That sometimes automatically brings the elbows in.

Did you grow up as a soccer player? I find that many soccer players run the way you describe. They have elbows out for protection and feet wide to help in changing direction. I had a girl whose feet were wide apart when she ran and she rocked from side to side. 20 minutes of working on it and consciousness during training cured it in a couple of weeks and she made significant gains in speed. Maybe you have structural or mobility issues, but maybe a little conscious work could make a big difference.

[trackspeedboy]

trackspeedboy on March 8, 2010 at 4:02 am #95600

How are your thumbs positioned? If they are not straight up, try that. That sometimes automatically brings the elbows in.

Did you grow up as a soccer player? I find that many soccer players run the way you describe. They have elbows out for protection and feet wide to help in changing direction. I had a girl whose feet were wide apart when she ran and she rocked from side to side. 20 minutes of working on it and consciousness during training cured it in a couple of weeks and she made significant gains in speed. Maybe you have structural or mobility issues, but maybe a little conscious work could make a big difference.

I did play soccer for quite some time yes. I also raced a lot on the street, and ran with the arms crossing over.

A coach did a couple flexibility tests with me and said my hips are pretty decently flexible.
But the thumb cue sounds like a good idea.

[davan]

davan on March 8, 2010 at 4:27 am #95601

At the college level, his coach tried to “correct” his arm swing, without success.

Attempts at correction would have the potential to do more harm than good in the absence of any knowledge regarding his neurological hard wiring, attachments points, assymetries, etc.

lol is this a joke? This guy has set big PBs in the 200/400 since leaving HS. Is this coming from him or his HS coach or what?

[trackspeedboy]

trackspeedboy on March 8, 2010 at 4:45 am #95602

Basically what I’ve got…

1) get the thumbs up and towards the ears

2) work on my core

3) don’t focus on arms way too much

4) focus on getting legs up and down

5) Get a video 🙂

[Craig Pickering]

Craig Pickering on March 8, 2010 at 4:53 am #95603

[quote author="speedfreak1" date="1267972569"]I think if you swing side to side quite a bit when you are running, it is down to back/core strength, as Daniel Andrews mentions. I used to rock quite a bit, as did other members of my training group, and when we introduced a core session 2x per week, our technique tightened up a lot, which was positive.

In terms of the arm swing, I generally think that the arm swing is a result of something else happening somewhere in the body, like tight hips, and that by fixing your arm swing wont actually change the problem.

Obviously, I have said all this without seeing you run, so take it with a pinch of salt!

The arm swing comments, come with two “parts.” One is my elbows coming out, the other is my arms not coming high.

I’ve figured myself that im not going to try and bring in the elbows, and coach says so too as well for that. So should I also not try to manually bring my arms UP (near face level) vs. arms staying low?

Just overall core work also would be useful? Cause I’ve done quite alot of rotational core work.

Bt one thing though, is rocking side to side potentially good for the drive phase? And when in speed endurance running, is it essentially causing me to slow down quicker than if i didnt rock?[/quote]

Why would rocking side to side be good for the drive phase? By rocking, do you mean your legs come out wide, or your torso rocks from side to side? If it is your torso, then the core work you have done might not have been good enough, and you could also look at postural work throughout the back ,and even the neck.

In speed endurance, rocking is ineffieicent, therefore you use more energy then in an efficient state. So it probably will cause you to tire quicker, and therefore slow down quicker.

If your arms arent coming up very high, this may be causing issues with your stride length. A good arm swing I would have thought was pretty desirable, and I would probably try and fix this, but I state again I havent seen you run, so am just suggesting common fixes.

[trackspeedboy]

trackspeedboy on March 8, 2010 at 4:59 am #95604

Videos

So I got 2 videos that should give a good idea of how I run, except it goes out for when im upright….

lane 8:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uPCY1bP2NI

lane 5:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce7uHCrScO4

[trackspeedboy]

trackspeedboy on March 8, 2010 at 5:05 am #95605

[quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1267999008"][quote author="speedfreak1" date="1267972569"]I think if you swing side to side quite a bit when you are running, it is down to back/core strength, as Daniel Andrews mentions. I used to rock quite a bit, as did other members of my training group, and when we introduced a core session 2x per week, our technique tightened up a lot, which was positive.

In terms of the arm swing, I generally think that the arm swing is a result of something else happening somewhere in the body, like tight hips, and that by fixing your arm swing wont actually change the problem.

Obviously, I have said all this without seeing you run, so take it with a pinch of salt!

The arm swing comments, come with two “parts.” One is my elbows coming out, the other is my arms not coming high.

I’ve figured myself that im not going to try and bring in the elbows, and coach says so too as well for that. So should I also not try to manually bring my arms UP (near face level) vs. arms staying low?

Just overall core work also would be useful? Cause I’ve done quite alot of rotational core work.

Bt one thing though, is rocking side to side potentially good for the drive phase? And when in speed endurance running, is it essentially causing me to slow down quicker than if i didnt rock?[/quote]

Why would rocking side to side be good for the drive phase? By rocking, do you mean your legs come out wide, or your torso rocks from side to side? If it is your torso, then the core work you have done might not have been good enough, and you could also look at postural work throughout the back ,and even the neck.

In speed endurance, rocking is ineffieicent, therefore you use more energy then in an efficient state. So it probably will cause you to tire quicker, and therefore slow down quicker.

If your arms arent coming up very high, this may be causing issues with your stride length. A good arm swing I would have thought was pretty desirable, and I would probably try and fix this, but I state again I havent seen you run, so am just suggesting common fixes.[/quote]

I meant the legs, like when I’ve seen asafa powell do it in his drive phase.
Are you serious about the core not being enough :S
I’ve done soo much core work, using med ball, weighted, body weight, etc etc

And about the speed endurance, that’s exactly what I thought and was told.

[Craig Pickering]

Craig Pickering on March 8, 2010 at 5:08 am #95606

The only thing I can tell from that is that your arms come wide. Difficult to see if they come high enough, but my gut says they seemed ok, and I didnt think you were rocking that much – certainly Ive seen a lot worse. Perhaps someone else with a better technical eye than me might see you rocking and your arms coming up lower?

[davan]

davan on March 8, 2010 at 5:10 am #95607

Arms look wide and upper body (shoulders/upper back/etc.) seemed extremely rigid, like in the other older videos you posted.

Didn’t look as bad as initially described. It takes time for those kinds of things to be worked out.

[trackspeedboy]

trackspeedboy on March 8, 2010 at 5:22 am #95608

Arms look wide and upper body (shoulders/upper back/etc.) seemed extremely rigid, like in the other older videos you posted.

Didn’t look as bad as initially described. It takes time for those kinds of things to be worked out.

I haven’t done much upper body flexibility work, could that be a problem?

[davan]

davan on March 8, 2010 at 6:37 am #95609

It could be, but tightness when running isn’t necessarily from limited ROM.

[trackspeedboy]

trackspeedboy on March 8, 2010 at 6:49 am #95610

It could be, but tightness when running isn’t necessarily from limited ROM.

Ok so what would be the best advice for me right now.

[Linas82]

Linas82 on March 8, 2010 at 7:46 am #95615

[quote author="Linas" date="1267969105"]At the college level, his coach tried to “correct” his arm swing, without success.

Attempts at correction would have the potential to do more harm than good in the absence of any knowledge regarding his neurological hard wiring, attachments points, assymetries, etc.

lol is this a joke? This guy has set big PBs in the 200/400 since leaving HS. Is this coming from him or his HS coach or what?

Yes, this guy improved a lot with PB’s of 21.60 and 47.80. His arm mechanics looked exactly the same as they did in the video. I know from some people that his coach tried to improve his arm mechanics, but it didn’t help.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on March 8, 2010 at 7:50 am #95617

[quote author="davan" date="1268010485"]It could be, but tightness when running isn’t necessarily from limited ROM.

Ok so what would be the best advice for me right now.[/quote]

read the last sentence of my first post again. Apply that to your sprinting in practice and meets while keeping a good all around training program that includes the 3 things I discussed.

Personally, I agree with davan here. I believe you are trying too hard at certain points in your races from either physical effort and/or thinking too much. Your arms are going to reflect whats going on in your lower half. From your comments the possibility exists that you are so strong and powerful in your torso/core you are using that to provide added strength and power to your legs (ie.. trying too hard). Regardless, I believe you current training has created deficiencies in some way shape or form and you would be best served by getting back to the basics in an all around training program geared towards sprinting.

[davan]

davan on March 8, 2010 at 7:52 am #95619

Yes, this guy improved a lot with PB’s of 21.60 and 47.80. His arm mechanics looked exactly the same as they did in the video. I know from some people that his coach tried to improve his arm mechanics, but it didn’t help.

Who are these people? I’m curious because I’ve competed at the same meets and have seen this guy run. Let me guess–WGF or Barry Ross disciples? lol

[trackspeedboy]

trackspeedboy on March 8, 2010 at 7:58 am #95620

[quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1268011199"][quote author="davan" date="1268010485"]It could be, but tightness when running isn’t necessarily from limited ROM.

Ok so what would be the best advice for me right now.[/quote]

read the last sentence of my first post again. Apply that to your sprinting in practice and meets while keeping a good all around training program that includes the 3 things I discussed.

Personally, I agree with davan here. I believe you are trying too hard at certain points in your races from either physical effort and/or thinking too much. Your arms are going to reflect whats going on in your lower half. From your comments the possibility exists that you are so strong and powerful in your torso/core you are using that to provide added strength and power to your legs (ie.. trying too hard). Regardless, I believe you current training has created deficiencies in some way shape or form and you would be best served by getting back to the basics in an all around training program geared towards sprinting.[/quote]

Relaxation, will do. Thanks for the advice.

Just to mention, my training has basically been…

speed 2x per week

tempo 1x per week (sometimes 2x with bike tempo)

weights 2-3x per week (squats are now done 1x per week only)

plyos 1-2x per week (low volume, after speed, just bounding/double leg bounds)

throws 0-1x per week (low volumes, don’t do much of these)

core 0-3x per week

stretching – everyday for at least 10 mins, or more

2 weeks ago, I added in hip thrusts and glute hams raises to my training, and do these 2-3x per week now, even with light/medium loading or body weight only. Also doing heavy RDLs.

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on March 8, 2010 at 8:07 am #95621

[quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1268014867"][quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1268011199"][quote author="davan" date="1268010485"]It could be, but tightness when running isn’t necessarily from limited ROM.

Ok so what would be the best advice for me right now.[/quote]

read the last sentence of my first post again. Apply that to your sprinting in practice and meets while keeping a good all around training program that includes the 3 things I discussed.

Personally, I agree with davan here. I believe you are trying too hard at certain points in your races from either physical effort and/or thinking too much. Your arms are going to reflect whats going on in your lower half. From your comments the possibility exists that you are so strong and powerful in your torso/core you are using that to provide added strength and power to your legs (ie.. trying too hard). Regardless, I believe you current training has created deficiencies in some way shape or form and you would be best served by getting back to the basics in an all around training program geared towards sprinting.[/quote]

Relaxation, will do. Thanks for the advice.

Just to mention, my training has basically been…

speed 2x per week

tempo 1x per week (sometimes 2x with bike tempo)

weights 2-3x per week (squats are now done 1x per week only)

plyos 1-2x per week (low volume, after speed, just bounding/double leg bounds)

throws 0-1x per week (low volumes, don’t do much of these)

core 0-3x per week

stretching – everyday for at least 10 mins, or more

2 weeks ago, I added in hip thrusts and glute hams raises to my training, and do these 2-3x per week now, even with light/medium loading or body weight only. Also doing heavy RDLs.[/quote]

Need more tempo… Drop the loads in the rdl.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on March 8, 2010 at 8:08 am #95622

[quote author="davan" date="1268002662"][quote author="Linas" date="1267969105"]At the college level, his coach tried to “correct” his arm swing, without success.

Attempts at correction would have the potential to do more harm than good in the absence of any knowledge regarding his neurological hard wiring, attachments points, assymetries, etc.

lol is this a joke? This guy has set big PBs in the 200/400 since leaving HS. Is this coming from him or his HS coach or what?

Yes, this guy improved a lot with PB’s of 21.60 and 47.80. His arm mechanics looked exactly the same as they did in the video. I know from some people that his coach tried to improve his arm mechanics, but it didn’t help.[/quote]

Dan Benton is one of Coach J’s athletes from Bearpowered. I don’t think we should be getting into the Barry and Ken v Mike, Carl, CFKA, etc… discussion in this thread when we have several threads dedicated to this elsewhere.

Also, while Benton’s arm mechanics aren’t the prettiest ever seen, they aren’t indicative of the same problems seen in the athlete we are discussing in this thread. Fixing arms mechanics starts with the hips, legs, and feet. Not to mention Benton doesn’t exhibit such exaggerated elbowing or chicken winging.

not to mention, I would say his JC coach did something right improving his 400m time by 1.5s in 2 years turning from a potential DIII relay man to a national caliber DIII 200m and 400m athlete.

[davan]

davan on March 8, 2010 at 8:12 am #95623

is or was? He’s improved dramatically since leaving high school and the program he was a part of in high school… Mechanics are most definitely a bit different than what is seen in the video, which isn’t to say they are prototypical or pretty necessarily, but they have changed.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on March 8, 2010 at 8:14 am #95624

is or was? He’s improved dramatically since [i]leaving[/i] high school and the program he was a part of in high school… Mechanics are most definitely a bit different than what is seen in the video, which isn’t to say they are prototypical or pretty necessarily, but they have changed.

Was, but I wouldn’t discount Ken’s influence if he still communicates with the kid which I don’t discount that he still does.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on March 8, 2010 at 8:23 am #95625

[quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1268015335"][quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1268014867"][quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1268011199"][quote author="davan" date="1268010485"]It could be, but tightness when running isn’t necessarily from limited ROM.

Ok so what would be the best advice for me right now.[/quote]

read the last sentence of my first post again. Apply that to your sprinting in practice and meets while keeping a good all around training program that includes the 3 things I discussed.

Personally, I agree with davan here. I believe you are trying too hard at certain points in your races from either physical effort and/or thinking too much. Your arms are going to reflect whats going on in your lower half. From your comments the possibility exists that you are so strong and powerful in your torso/core you are using that to provide added strength and power to your legs (ie.. trying too hard). Regardless, I believe you current training has created deficiencies in some way shape or form and you would be best served by getting back to the basics in an all around training program geared towards sprinting.[/quote]

Relaxation, will do. Thanks for the advice.

Just to mention, my training has basically been…

speed 2x per week

tempo 1x per week (sometimes 2x with bike tempo)

weights 2-3x per week (squats are now done 1x per week only)

plyos 1-2x per week (low volume, after speed, just bounding/double leg bounds)

throws 0-1x per week (low volumes, don’t do much of these)

core 0-3x per week

stretching – everyday for at least 10 mins, or more

2 weeks ago, I added in hip thrusts and glute hams raises to my training, and do these 2-3x per week now, even with light/medium loading or body weight only. Also doing heavy RDLs.[/quote]

Need more tempo… Drop the loads in the rdl.[/quote]

Concurred on the tempo. I would also move from RDL’s to a regular DL, make the torso act more as a stabilizer. Lift only on speed days. If you feel you need a third day of strength training do general strength work. Find ways to intersperse the core work into your regular training ie.. do it during plyos, throws, GS work, and tempo and devote more time to training properly. There is no reason you can’t get creative with Tempo and GS work combined at least 2x a week if not 3.

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on March 8, 2010 at 8:49 am #95631

[quote author="utfootball4" date="1268015864"][quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1268015335"][quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1268014867"][quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1268011199"][quote author="davan" date="1268010485"]It could be, but tightness when running isn’t necessarily from limited ROM.

Ok so what would be the best advice for me right now.[/quote]

read the last sentence of my first post again. Apply that to your sprinting in practice and meets while keeping a good all around training program that includes the 3 things I discussed.

Personally, I agree with davan here. I believe you are trying too hard at certain points in your races from either physical effort and/or thinking too much. Your arms are going to reflect whats going on in your lower half. From your comments the possibility exists that you are so strong and powerful in your torso/core you are using that to provide added strength and power to your legs (ie.. trying too hard). Regardless, I believe you current training has created deficiencies in some way shape or form and you would be best served by getting back to the basics in an all around training program geared towards sprinting.[/quote]

Relaxation, will do. Thanks for the advice.

Just to mention, my training has basically been…

speed 2x per week

tempo 1x per week (sometimes 2x with bike tempo)

weights 2-3x per week (squats are now done 1x per week only)

plyos 1-2x per week (low volume, after speed, just bounding/double leg bounds)

throws 0-1x per week (low volumes, don’t do much of these)

core 0-3x per week

stretching – everyday for at least 10 mins, or more

2 weeks ago, I added in hip thrusts and glute hams raises to my training, and do these 2-3x per week now, even with light/medium loading or body weight only. Also doing heavy RDLs.[/quote]

Need more tempo… Drop the loads in the rdl.[/quote]

Concurred on the tempo. I would also move from RDL’s to a regular DL, make the torso act more as a stabilizer. Lift only on speed days. If you feel you need a third day of strength training do general strength work. Find ways to intersperse the core work into your regular training ie.. do it during plyos, throws, GS work, and tempo and devote more time to training properly. There is no reason you can’t get creative with Tempo and GS work combined at least 2x a week if not 3.[/quote]

Not sure about regular DL at this time.. Don’t have a major issue lifting on non speed days. For example:

Mon: speed/lower
Cleans
Squats
Hypers

Thur: speed/lower
Snatch
Rev lunge
glute ham

Tue:
Bench press
Db row
Db shoulder press

Fri:
Db ip
Pullups
bic/tri

[trackspeedboy]

trackspeedboy on March 8, 2010 at 11:17 am #95633

[quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1268015335"][quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1268014867"][quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1268011199"][quote author="davan" date="1268010485"]It could be, but tightness when running isn’t necessarily from limited ROM.

Ok so what would be the best advice for me right now.[/quote]

read the last sentence of my first post again. Apply that to your sprinting in practice and meets while keeping a good all around training program that includes the 3 things I discussed.

Personally, I agree with davan here. I believe you are trying too hard at certain points in your races from either physical effort and/or thinking too much. Your arms are going to reflect whats going on in your lower half. From your comments the possibility exists that you are so strong and powerful in your torso/core you are using that to provide added strength and power to your legs (ie.. trying too hard). Regardless, I believe you current training has created deficiencies in some way shape or form and you would be best served by getting back to the basics in an all around training program geared towards sprinting.[/quote]

Relaxation, will do. Thanks for the advice.

Just to mention, my training has basically been…

speed 2x per week

tempo 1x per week (sometimes 2x with bike tempo)

weights 2-3x per week (squats are now done 1x per week only)

plyos 1-2x per week (low volume, after speed, just bounding/double leg bounds)

throws 0-1x per week (low volumes, don’t do much of these)

core 0-3x per week

stretching – everyday for at least 10 mins, or more

2 weeks ago, I added in hip thrusts and glute hams raises to my training, and do these 2-3x per week now, even with light/medium loading or body weight only. Also doing heavy RDLs.[/quote]

Need more tempo… Drop the loads in the rdl.[/quote]

2x per week with 800-1500m volume sound ok? and tuesdays school practice, the workout is speed followed by tempo right after, usually 5-8x200m at 50-60% speed.

and RDLs, something like 3×10 good?

[davan]

davan on March 8, 2010 at 11:37 am #95634

Why would you add in hip thrusts and GHRs during the season? Or why keep in RDLs during the season??

The program you’re putting together doesn’t make a whole lot of sense if you’re trying to actually run fast in these meets.

[trackspeedboy]

trackspeedboy on March 8, 2010 at 11:42 am #95635

[quote author="utfootball4" date="1268015864"][quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1268015335"][quote author="Daniel Andrews" date="1268014867"][quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1268011199"][quote author="davan" date="1268010485"]It could be, but tightness when running isn’t necessarily from limited ROM.

Ok so what would be the best advice for me right now.[/quote]

read the last sentence of my first post again. Apply that to your sprinting in practice and meets while keeping a good all around training program that includes the 3 things I discussed.

Personally, I agree with davan here. I believe you are trying too hard at certain points in your races from either physical effort and/or thinking too much. Your arms are going to reflect whats going on in your lower half. From your comments the possibility exists that you are so strong and powerful in your torso/core you are using that to provide added strength and power to your legs (ie.. trying too hard). Regardless, I believe you current training has created deficiencies in some way shape or form and you would be best served by getting back to the basics in an all around training program geared towards sprinting.[/quote]

Relaxation, will do. Thanks for the advice.

Just to mention, my training has basically been…

speed 2x per week

tempo 1x per week (sometimes 2x with bike tempo)

weights 2-3x per week (squats are now done 1x per week only)

plyos 1-2x per week (low volume, after speed, just bounding/double leg bounds)

throws 0-1x per week (low volumes, don’t do much of these)

core 0-3x per week

stretching – everyday for at least 10 mins, or more

2 weeks ago, I added in hip thrusts and glute hams raises to my training, and do these 2-3x per week now, even with light/medium loading or body weight only. Also doing heavy RDLs.[/quote]

Need more tempo… Drop the loads in the rdl.[/quote]

Concurred on the tempo. I would also move from RDL’s to a regular DL, make the torso act more as a stabilizer. Lift only on speed days. If you feel you need a third day of strength training do general strength work. Find ways to intersperse the core work into your regular training ie.. do it during plyos, throws, GS work, and tempo and devote more time to training properly. There is no reason you can’t get creative with Tempo and GS work combined at least 2x a week if not 3.[/quote]

the day it’s gone for me recently:

sun: max.V/short SE speed + plyos + squats/bench/hip extensor work/pull ups

mon: rest (sometimes I do some bike cardio + core/body weight circuit)

tues: school practice: speed (really it’s split runs..2x5x50m w/ incomplete rest between reps) / tempo (5-8x200m)

wed: weights… RDLs + another hip extensor exercise (sometimes 2) + bench + pull ups (if im racing that weekend, it’s upper body work only)

thurs: rest

fri: speed, 5-6x55m full recovery + low vol. plyos / weights clean pulls + hip extensor exercise + med ball core + 1-2 auxillary lifts

sat: rest

I cant lift on tuesdays… school practice just drains me with the long warm up and workout and since I dont eat much before it (after school practice), and having homework, jsut cant lift on that day.

[trackspeedboy]

trackspeedboy on March 8, 2010 at 11:46 am #95636

Why would you add in hip thrusts and GHRs during the season? Or why keep in RDLs during the season??

The program you’re putting together doesn’t make a whole lot of sense if you’re trying to actually run fast in these meets.

RDLs I’d done for quite sometime, and hip thrusts actually I was doing them elevated with body weight only for sometime. I was also doing glute bridges from before. GHRs were added in yes.

But indoor seasons over now.
Outdoor season will get going mid april, however I do have a school meet on march 31st. An indoor meet, in a outdoor sized track.

So where do you suggest to go from here, keep at the weights the same way I’ve been last couple weeks and slowly take them out as april comes?

Leaving only squats, clean pulls, bench and pull ups.

[Jay Turner]

Jay Turner on March 8, 2010 at 2:15 pm #95639

[quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1267999008"][quote author="speedfreak1" date="1268004233"][quote author="Nick Newman" date="1267949887"]Yeah i’d say…i went from 4.03 over 30m to 3.82. Obviously training helped as well but my technique over my first 5-10m used to be horrible! no it’s much more smooth…

I’m not sure about your arms, id hav to see them…But i’m something who thinks arm actions needs to be natural and comfortable. I don’t really think it changes speed at all.

I think if you swing side to side quite a bit when you are running, it is down to back/core strength, as Daniel Andrews mentions. I used to rock quite a bit, as did other members of my training group, and when we introduced a core session 2x per week, our technique tightened up a lot, which was positive.

In terms of the arm swing, I generally think that the arm swing is a result of something else happening somewhere in the body, like tight hips, and that by fixing your arm swing wont actually change the problem.

Obviously, I have said all this without seeing you run, so take it with a pinch of salt![/quote]
The arm swing comments, come with two “parts.” One is my elbows coming out, the other is my arms not coming high.

I’ve figured myself that im not going to try and bring in the elbows, and coach says so too as well for that. So should I also not try to manually bring my arms UP (near face level) vs. arms staying low?

Just overall core work also would be useful? Cause I’ve done quite alot of rotational core work.

Bt one thing though, is rocking side to side potentially good for the drive phase? And when in speed endurance running, is it essentially causing me to slow down quicker than if i didnt rock?[/quote]

Why would rocking side to side be good for the drive phase? By rocking, do you mean your legs come out wide, or your torso rocks from side to side? If it is your torso, then the core work you have done might not have been good enough, and you could also look at postural work throughout the back ,and even the neck.

In speed endurance, rocking is ineffieicent, therefore you use more energy then in an efficient state. So it probably will cause you to tire quicker, and therefore slow down quicker.

If your arms arent coming up very high, this may be causing issues with your stride length. A good arm swing I would have thought was pretty desirable, and I would probably try and fix this, but I state again I havent seen you run, so am just suggesting common fixes.[/quote]
Nick and speedfreak1,

I have a girl whose arms aren’t coming up very high. But speedfreak I can assure you she has NO stride length issues. Her stride length is actually much better than I thought it would ever be considering her arm action during races. However, I feel if it were better, perhaps it would improve her times even more. So Nick, roughly, without seeing video of her, how much would this help her to have better arm swing? She gets very little of it during races.

[Linas82]

Linas82 on March 8, 2010 at 6:00 pm #87178

Also, while Benton’s arm mechanics aren’t the prettiest ever seen, they aren’t indicative of the same problems seen in the athlete we are discussing in this thread. Fixing arms mechanics starts with the hips, legs, and feet. Not to mention Benton doesn’t exhibit such exaggerated elbowing or chicken winging.

I’m not trying to relate Benton’s arm machanics with the athlete in this thread. Does Benton’s arm mechanics look different since high school? I’m just curious b/c someone who competed with him said that it looked the same. Maybe for some look the same for others not?

[davan]

davan on March 9, 2010 at 4:29 am #95643

They don’t look like that video to me.

People who have special interests in the matter will often see what they want.

[mortac8]

mortac8 on March 9, 2010 at 5:15 am #95644

Is that at York? Why not just sleep there until Charlie shows up one day and ask him 🙂

[Craig Pickering]

Craig Pickering on March 9, 2010 at 7:22 am #95650

[quote author="speedfreak1" date="1267972569"][quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1267999008"][quote author="speedfreak1" date="1268004233"][quote author="Nick Newman" date="1267949887"]Yeah i’d say…i went from 4.03 over 30m to 3.82. Obviously training helped as well but my technique over my first 5-10m used to be horrible! no it’s much more smooth…

I’m not sure about your arms, id hav to see them…But i’m something who thinks arm actions needs to be natural and comfortable. I don’t really think it changes speed at all.

I think if you swing side to side quite a bit when you are running, it is down to back/core strength, as Daniel Andrews mentions. I used to rock quite a bit, as did other members of my training group, and when we introduced a core session 2x per week, our technique tightened up a lot, which was positive.

In terms of the arm swing, I generally think that the arm swing is a result of something else happening somewhere in the body, like tight hips, and that by fixing your arm swing wont actually change the problem.

Obviously, I have said all this without seeing you run, so take it with a pinch of salt![/quote]
The arm swing comments, come with two “parts.” One is my elbows coming out, the other is my arms not coming high.

I’ve figured myself that im not going to try and bring in the elbows, and coach says so too as well for that. So should I also not try to manually bring my arms UP (near face level) vs. arms staying low?

Just overall core work also would be useful? Cause I’ve done quite alot of rotational core work.

Bt one thing though, is rocking side to side potentially good for the drive phase? And when in speed endurance running, is it essentially causing me to slow down quicker than if i didnt rock?[/quote]

Why would rocking side to side be good for the drive phase? By rocking, do you mean your legs come out wide, or your torso rocks from side to side? If it is your torso, then the core work you have done might not have been good enough, and you could also look at postural work throughout the back ,and even the neck.

In speed endurance, rocking is ineffieicent, therefore you use more energy then in an efficient state. So it probably will cause you to tire quicker, and therefore slow down quicker.

If your arms arent coming up very high, this may be causing issues with your stride length. A good arm swing I would have thought was pretty desirable, and I would probably try and fix this, but I state again I havent seen you run, so am just suggesting common fixes.[/quote]
Nick and speedfreak1,

I have a girl whose arms aren’t coming up very high. But speedfreak I can assure you she has NO stride length issues. Her stride length is actually much better than I thought it would ever be considering her arm action during races. However, I feel if it were better, perhaps it would improve her times even more. So Nick, roughly, without seeing video of her, how much would this help her to have better arm swing? She gets very little of it during races.[/quote]

I wasnt saying it would cause problems, I was just saying it might – my reasoning being that the arms going through a shorter range of movement could cause the legs to go through a shorter range of motion. Thoughts?

[trackspeedboy]

trackspeedboy on March 9, 2010 at 8:11 am #95657

” date=”1268091966″]Is that at York? Why not just sleep there until Charlie shows up one day and ask him 🙂

yep york lol.