Posted In: Strength & Conditioning
I'm sure this has probably been covered numerous amounts of times.
I'm currently studying for 5 exams and don't really have time to read all the posts.
I was just wondering if someone could list of the main lifts that a sprinter/hurdler should have in his/her lifting program.
Also, I dont exactly have access to a squat rack right now, can anyone suggest a good alternative to back squats?
power clean or power snatch
back squat or deadlift
bench press
glutham
core work (med balls etc)
UT's is a good summary of what I'd use with a few changes (in order of exercises, and selection of exercises to a degree, although they are all training the same basic movements).
I'd go with
–Deadlift
–Olympic Lift Variation
–A push–bench is the most common, but I like an exercise called a Power Straight because it combines a push and a pull in the same motion, so you can incorperate both of those in different workouts if you have access to a pullup bar.
–A posterior chain lift like GHR, and if that's not available, I'd use a progression from a Good Morning, to a single leg good morning, to a 1 leg anterior reach loaded with a dumbell. Joe DeFranco programs this movement last in his workouts from what I can tell, so you may want to play with the programming of it.
–Finally some core is important, but I now like to use isometric/postural stuff primarily. Sure, the abdominal region rotates and flexes your spine, but gravity will flex your spine for you. To steal a quote from the authors of Mechanical Low Back Pain, "Rather than considering the abdominals as flexors and rotators of the trunk- for which they certainly have the capacity- their function might be better viewed as antirotators and antilateral flexors of the trunk." For added 'food for thought' Allyson Felix does only this type of core work in the weight room.
single leg gm great movement: see below
START WITH 10% OF YOUR SQUAT MAX, THEN AFTER YOU LEARN TO KEEP YOUR BALANCE ADD 5 LBS. PER WEEK
For me it would be:
Squats
Cleans
Bench press
RDLs
Pullups
If you can't squat because you don't have a squat rack you could deadlift or do front squats (following a clean). Single leg squats and step-ups are other acceptable alternatives that I'd use before the leg press.
ELITETRACK Founder
if you are doing power cleans or the pullups a necessities since the pc is a pulling movement??
I consider the power clean (or any OL for that matter) as a pulling movement with a lower body emphasis. I really don't think they do enough for the upper back or arms (other than the traps) to be a sufficient substitute for an upper body pulling movement. In fact, I think upper body pulling movements play a pivotal role in offsetting many of the postural issues that result from living in today's society.
ELITETRACK Founder
wow, i think heavy cleans and clean pulls work the upper back alot..
I consider the power clean (or any OL for that matter) as a pulling movement with a lower body emphasis. I really don't think they do enough for the upper back or arms (other than the traps) to be a sufficient substitute for an upper body pulling movement. In fact, I think upper body pulling movements play a pivotal role in offsetting many of the postural issues that result from living in today's society.
Mike, are you familiar with the Power Straight? It is a pull then push exercise that does develop the upper back very well. You can see a video here:
https://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Power/WtPowerStraight.html
I think clean high pulls work the upper back some (still mainly traps though) but they don't do much for the muscles acting on the scapula and I certainly don't think they'd be sufficient to offset increases in muscle tonicity that would come as a result of pressing work.
ELITETRACK Founder
clean high pull are a waste, i never clean high pull always clean pull elbow str. this fall i never did any direct back work and i think my back is stronger then ever also pretty big (thats what people say)..
Mike, are you familiar with the Power Straight? It is a pull then push exercise that does develop the upper back very well. You can see a video here:
https://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Power/WtPowerStraight.html
I occasionally have my pole vaulters use that exercise as part of a gymnastics routine. I actually like it quite a bit but I think too difficult to ramp up the intensity for highly trained athletes and still keep it safe.
ELITETRACK Founder
In most cases I prefer OLs to high pulls too. I just put them out there because for normal OLs the upper body doesn't (or shouldn't) really do any active pulling but in the high pull it does.
ELITETRACK Founder
just bc u dont feel the clean in ur upper back doesnt mean its not getting work, do you feel the clean in ur hips, quad and gluts – just curious? if i dont clean for 4 weeks and go back to clean heavy im very sore that next morning in my upper back region.
also guys i just want to make this clear, im not saying you cant do pullups or rows when doing heavy pulls like cleans and deadlifts but u dont necessary have to (remember the topic was the basic necessities).
that staright push thing looks like a nasty sweet exercise
It is a very good one, but I can see what mike says about it being difficult to load safely for athletes that are really strong or powerful. I use them and also implement them when training younger kids–it teaches them to load there own bodies instead of having to use weights.
do you feel the clean in ur hips, quad and gluts – just curious?
I do, although it is not as difficult as a deadlift or squat. Is the pull part of the powerclean really that great? With proper execution of the lift, you reach triple extention before you even shrug. I would think that the momentum would take away significantly from the ammount of force requried to pull it. I am not saying that it isn't a pull, but is pull strength really the key to the lift or is it leg drive and extention?
For me it is….
-Olympic Lift or some type of explosive lift such as Jump Squats
-Unilateral Lower
-Push
-Pull
-Lower Posteior Chain
-Abs,Lower Back
That is not all doen in the same session although early in the season it could be
If there was 5 basic exercises I would do it would be…
-Powercleans
-Single Leg DB Squats
-Flat Bench Press
-Pullups
-RDL's or GHR
Mike would you consider Deadlifts enough to offset upper body pushing movements as a pulling movement, or would you prescribe doing some rows and or pullups included?
Not really. While they do hit the upper back to some extent I'd rather include an upper body pulling moving.
ELITETRACK Founder
just bc u dont feel the clean in ur upper back doesnt mean its not getting work, do you feel the clean in ur hips, quad and gluts – just curious? if i dont clean for 4 weeks and go back to clean heavy im very sore that next morning in my upper back region.
I agree with this. In fact if I take a prolonged break from OLs I typically be most sore in my traps.
also guys i just want to make this clear, im not saying you cant do pullups or rows when doing heavy pulls like cleans and deadlifts but u dont necessary have to (remember the topic was the basic necessities).
I'd use the same logic (RE: basic necessities) to justify the inclusion of an upper body pull. That is, there is quite a bit of training stimuli overlap between deadlifts, OLs and squats. In my opinion, the same can't be said for pullups and any of the other exercises. I think we agree that we need to include at least two of the three exercises mentioned above, in which case I think it's important that one of our five exercises provide a stimulus to strengthen the lats, rhomboids, rear delt, and elbow flexors.
ELITETRACK Founder
Is the pull part of the powerclean really that great? With proper execution of the lift, you reach triple extention before you even shrug. I would think that the momentum would take away significantly from the ammount of force requried to pull it. I am not saying that it isn't a pull, but is pull strength really the key to the lift or is it leg drive and extention?
I agree with you and think that it is the latter. In the lower body pulling movements (dead lift, OLS, RDLs, etc.) the muscles of the upper back primarily function as a stabilizer of the shoulder joint rather than a prime mover. In fact, even during the OLS where the bar is seemingly 'pulled' by the upper body, the muscles of the upper back play a minimal role in moving the bar from the hips to the shoulders (or in the case of the snatch- overhead).
ELITETRACK Founder
Quik-
Why unilateral lifts over squats?
ELITETRACK Founder
Quik-
Why unilateral lifts over squats?
Mike,
When I posted that I was thinking in terms of myself.
I do not like doing back squats as they make me feel tight and heavy during the season. I do however like front squats but do not see them as a bare necesssity if single leg squats are being done.
With most of my athletes I do use back squats and front squats. The other alternative is trap bar deadlifts which I like to use with alot of the females.
So again that post was in terms of my own training but to be completely honest for you I am again starting to think of most lower body lifting with the exeption of maybe cleans and a posterior chain movement for injury prevention purposes are not necessary in my case at allllllll.
My times have not improved one single bit since I have began training my lower body over 2 years ago. My strength has improved in all my lifts but no carryover to my times and to add to that it is takign away from the quality of my running workouts and having a negative efect on my recovery even when the volume is dropped.
Wow, quite the response I got here.
Thanks for the input.
What would someone in my situation do? I don't exactly know how to do OLY lifts with proper form. I don't want to injure myself.
heavy clean and snatch pull, and jump squats..
i know how to do jump squats but how do i do cleans and snatches?
pretty much a fast dl with a fast triple ext..
pretty much a fast dl with a fast triple ext..
A clean or snatch are variations of Olympic Lifts. There is much more than just a triple extention involved in a clean or snatch. Yes, a triple extention is involved, but you must also continue the acceleration of the bar with your upperbody and then catch the bar, either above your head as in a snacth or around your clavicle (but not on it) in a clean. During both of these lifts it is very important to keep the bar as close to the center of mass as possible.
Snatch:
Stand over the barbell with the balls of your feet under the bar at hip width or so apart. Squat down and grab the bar with a wide over hand grip. Position the shoulders over the bar with the back arched to a small degree. Arms are straight with elbows pointed along the bar.
Pull the bar up off the floor by extending the hips and knees. When the bar passes the knees shrug your shoulders while keeping the bar as close to the COM as possible. As the bar passes your thighs, jump upward extending the body (triple extention). Shrug the shoulders and pull the bar up with your arms allowing the elbows to pull up to the sides, keeping them over the bar as long as possible. "Slide" under the bar. Catch the bar at arms length while squating. Stand up.
The clean is similar to the snatch, but instead of thrusting it overhead, you squat and catch it at clavicle level. It is important to keep the elbows slightly out instead of on your sides.
If you've never learned the Olympic lifts, I would suggest taking your time and progressing the loads relatively slowly. You may even want to start out with a length of PVC pipe or a very light bar and keep your form perfect.
If you want a progression of learning the Olympic lifts, we may be able to help.
the triple ext is the most important phase of the lift….
the triple ext is the most important phase of the lift….
Yes, but is not the only part of the lift. He was inquiring about the performance of the lifts. Your response, a fast deadlift with a fast triple extention is almost redundant as a fast deadlift may well extend your ankles, resulting in a statement that read "pretty much a triple extention with a fast triple extention." The post above about the triple extention was not to attack you, friend. Its sole purpose was to clarify and better inform Swiftyer about the Olympic Lifts. Fair enough?
he ask how to perform clean and snatch pulls
wsgeneral, thank you for the response.
I'm planning on working on form in the next few days with an empty bar.
I'll continue to post any concerns during this process.
Best of luck to you.
Here's a link from the UC Riverside Strength and Conditioning site (text and video) on the "Teaching Progression for Power Clean, Jerk, and Power Snatch". I'm wondering what ya'll think.
https://www.athletics.ucr.edu/strengthconditioning/tprog.html
After a cursory glance, it appears that there are more steps than I'd use, but I'd use many of the same exercises in teaching the lift. As far as teaching progressions I'd use something like the following for the power clean:
Clean grip RDL
Clean grip RDL to power shrug.
Clean grip RDL to high pull
Hang Clean
Power Clean
After a cursory glance, it appears that there are more steps than I'd use, but I'd use many of the same exercises in teaching the lift. As far as teaching progressions I'd use something like the following for the power clean:
Clean grip RDL
Clean grip RDL to power shrug.
Clean grip RDL to high pull
Hang Clean
Power Clean
take the high pull OUT it teaches bad tech.. ONCE YOU BEND ARMS POWER IS LOST……
POWER CLEAN;
1) FREE STANDING SQUAT
2) FRONT SQUAT
3) BACK SQUAT
4) RDLS
5)HANG SHRUG
6) HANG SHRUG JUMP
7) HANG CLEAN
POWER SHRUG
9)POWER CLEAN
Now prove me wrong here, but the pull is nothing more than a power clean without the catch portion of the lift. It teaches you to continue to accelerate/maintain velocity of the bar and to control the bar. By saying that bending your arms loses power and thus you shouldn't do the lift, then the clean would be losing power(as you bend your arms to catch), and therefore should be avoided.
Now prove me wrong here, but the pull is nothing more than a power clean without the catch portion of the lift. It teaches you to continue to accelerate/maintain velocity of the bar and to control the bar. By saying that bending your arms loses power and thus you shouldn't do the lift, then the clean would be losing power(as you bend your arms to catch), and therefore should be avoided.
hey i learned from gayle hatch a world class olympic weightlifting coach, its proven when you bend ur arms the power is lost, thats why the USA training center dont use clean high pulls with there lifters….. now i agree with you, u dont have to rack the weight to get the full benefit of the lift, you can do a reg clean pull and get great gains.
its proven when you bend ur arms the power is lost, thats why the USA training center dont use clean high pulls with there lifters
Fair enough, but eliminating lifts because you bend your arms would eliminate almost all OLs. Explain the difference between a clean pull and a high pull. My definition is that they are same exercise, just a different term. Both lifts you pull it high enough that you could drop under and catch it. What else is there?
[quote author="utfootball4" date="1141070528"]
its proven when you bend ur arms the power is lost, thats why the USA training center dont use clean high pulls with there lifters
Fair enough, but eliminating lifts because you bend your arms would eliminate almost all OLs. Explain the difference between a clean pull and a high pull. My definition is that they are same exercise, just a different term. Both lifts you pull it high enough that you could drop under and catch it. What else is there?
[/quote]
NOPE.. I like i said earlier clean pull in simple terms a fast dl..
clean high pull: as the barbell gets above the knees begin accelerating the speed of the barbell and as the barbell gets to mid to upper thigh level explode as much force as you can into pulling the barbell to your belly button.
clean pull: squeeze the barbell off the floor slowly, keeping this positon of the hips higher then the knees and lowr than the shoulders. keep the barbell close to your body. the arms must at all times remain straight with your back flat chest out andhead up. as you come to full erect, standing pos shrug your shoulders and fully extend up on your toes as high as you can go..
I call your clean pull a power shrug, and a high pull goes much higher than your belly button. It goes to where you would slide under to catch the bar. Far different technique from your definiton.
once again my def is from a world class olympic weightlifting coach jim smitz, so i would recomm for you to go a level 1 usa weightlifting class they would do a very good job helping you with these lifts. if you ever pull the bar high like you are talking about thats shitty tech, even when i did high pulls 4yrs ago i never pull that high its just not realistic.
My definintion comes from Frederick C. Hatfield. Just like one man's push-up is another's press up, it appears to be a simple divergence of definition. You cannot call one superior to the other, either, because they are two completely different exercises.
Poor technique? It is a clean without a catch. Basically you are doing cleans with poor technique, with that logic.
Depends on whether you???re a weightlifter or a track & field athlete just doing a power clean. A weightlifter will perform the transition from the straight-arm explosion to catching the bar within a decimetre of bar movement, whereas a t&f athlete usually need much more space, and thus need to bend his arms during the end phase of the pull. Bending the arms will not be possible for a weightlifter because he is lifting closer to maximum weights than the t&f athlete.
So, in a way, if you do not catch the bar with a deep front squat, you have to bend your arms a little bit more than optimal (even thou this would be futile for a weightlifter), but only because the weight of the bar is not as close to your maximum potential and beacuse you don't catch the bar as deep.
I actually use the same definitions as UTfootball. The triple extension is considerably greater on high pulls (as we call them) but the load can't be as high. Also, I do think that in less skilled athletes allowing the arms to bend can introduce technical problems. For athletes who have already mastered the OLs allowing the arms to bend typically isn't an issue. Also, in highly skilled competitive OL athletes doing high pulls with an active upper body pull is actually beneficial (as long as it is appropriately timed) because in full lifts (when they catch in a deep front squat) an upper body pull actually helps them drop under the bar.
ELITETRACK Founder
