[400stud]

400stud on October 22, 2003 at 12:27 am #8657

Okay, so now that I'm creating my own weights program again, I was wondering if you could help me out corresponding weight and track workouts approrpriately.

Here are my phase setups for track workouts…

GPP – 6 weeks
SPP – 8 weeks
Pre-Comp. – 8 weeks
Comp./Peak – Up to 8 weeks, but definitely 1 full meso b4 peak

Now, for weights, I was going to do this..

6 weeks – Accumulation Weights
6 weeks – Hypertrophy (Density Training)
7 weeks – Max Strength
7 weeks – Power-Speed
Maintenance through end of season

Here's the problem, those lengths don't exactly add up so I'll be lifting heavy during unloading weeks on the track, yet if they do exactly add up, then I may have too short training on one aspect, or too long on another, etc.

Can you guys please help? Thanks.

-400Stud

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on October 22, 2003 at 1:11 am #22886

Kinda heavy in Max Strength?

Perhaps using less weeks and not Max Strength but a L. Simmons Max Day / Dynamic Day protocol?

Just seem to see too many folks placing too much emphasis on Max Strength and classical periodization schemes.

For what its worth.

Coach

[400stud]

400stud on October 22, 2003 at 3:44 am #22887

Could you elaborate, please?

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on October 22, 2003 at 5:20 am #22888

There are a few givens in my mind when it comes to the base defaults of coaching in the US
1. That (to quote Brooks Johnson) we are experts in overloading people with training, or that any coach can wear you down. But is the training functional?
2. Many tend to live (and die) by the old standards of all work having to exactly fit in a 7 day week, 3-1-3 cycle, moving from a training priority, to another with little regard to the maintaining of prior gains, timing and functionality, specificity, etc.
3. That there is much less direct relationship between max strength and most track and field events as one might think.

All that preaching aside, all I am saying is the classic western periodization scheme is not Gospel or cast in stone. Why 7 weeks of Max Strength? Why so long and what are your goals/expectations for and from such a committment?

Partly challenging your ideas by challenging you to think out of the box.
And personally I dont think that the benefit is there for the investment of 7 weeks in Max Strength.

What is your pre-holiday, holidays, and post holidays schedule and ability to train?
These answers can help to plan what and how to train around those times. Frankly I tend to intentionally beat-up my kids as they go home for 3-4 weeks – mostly in the Northeast, and dont do much so why not get the supercomp from a pile of hard work? On the other hand if you are in the southwest climate, and you are dedicated at training, plan accordingly.

Just an opinionated old man I guess.

Coach

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on October 22, 2003 at 5:20 am #22889

wow, got my 2nd star

I feel like I'm in one of those X-Mas TV specials…

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on October 22, 2003 at 10:35 am #22890

Dave-
Nice points but I do disagree on one of them. This is just me but I don't have a real problem with 8 weeks of max strength. In fact I personally think it would be far worse to have 6 weeks of hypertrophy training, especially if one didn't need to get bigger. In my opinion, the biggest gains typically come in the second meso of max strength lifting. Having said that, I'd match up the weights and track work like this:

GPP – 6 weeks
SPP – 8 weeks
Pre-Comp. – 8 weeks

6 weeks – Accumulation Weights
4 weeks – Hypertrophy (Density Training)
8 weeks – Max Strength
4 weeks – Power-Speed

ELITETRACK Founder

[400stud]

400stud on October 22, 2003 at 6:45 pm #22891

Mike –

how would you setup density training for only 4 weeks?

[delldell]

delldell on October 23, 2003 at 12:35 am #22892

[i]Originally posted by 400Stud[/i]
Mike –

how would you setup density training for only 4 weeks?

It probably wouldn't be a good idea to do it then, but maybe you could do:
1 week at 65%, 1 week at 73%, 1 week at 78%, 1 week unloading at 70%.

Basically, you would do one less week of prep, and you wouldn't be able to go up to the highest intensity.

[400stud]

400stud on October 23, 2003 at 7:01 pm #22893

DellDell – Then how would you do sets/reps/%'s for the 4 weeks of hypertrophy if I didn't do Density Training?

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on October 23, 2003 at 10:45 pm #22894

Mike

Agreed on the Hypertrophy 4 weeks
Would suggest same for Max Strength with a 10 day to 14 day regular "re-visit" of max during an 8 week Power/Speed phase.
Just dont think Max Strength is that important enough to a 400m runner and would make a similar arguement for pretty much all T & F events, even Shot.

Track is a speed and power sport. How one gets there is where the specificity comes in.

[400stud]

400stud on October 24, 2003 at 3:26 am #22895

So you are suggesting…

6 weeks – accumulation weights
4 weeks – hypertrophy
4 weeks – max strength
8 weeks – power-speed

???

❓ Just trying to clarify

[prophet]

prophet on October 24, 2003 at 3:34 am #22896

Sorry for going off topic but could someone explain to me what the difference b/w accumulation weights and hypertrophy weights are? I was always confused by this.

[400stud]

400stud on October 24, 2003 at 3:46 am #22897

https://www.allabouttrack.com/x.pro/ModShow/ShowPage/5671/

That might give you a better idea. I'm still not 100% sure about it, but this is something to kind of get an idea on.

Anyone wanna help?

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on October 24, 2003 at 8:44 am #22898

Basic suggestion, yes.

Not knowing more detail, like my earlier questions and your competition schedule, etc.

No more than a 3 1 3 in anything other than Power/Speed and a max day every 10 to 14 days in there.

Just suggestions. beware anyone who claims to know whats best for you and as well, be careful taking something like this as "gospel"

[coachformerlyknownas]

coachformerlyknownas on October 24, 2003 at 8:47 am #22899

Let me also say that I have every confidence in Mike after having followed his career, read his posts, articles, etc.
He is highly respected at the highest level of the sport and if it were a "beauty contest" most people would follow his advice over mine, every day of the week with an extra helping on Sunday!

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on October 24, 2003 at 11:18 am #22900

Dave I agree that track is a speed and power sport but my rationale is that max strength will help to develop power because of the increased force output made possible by increasing max strength. Obviously, the key is to be able to "convert" the max strength into power.

[i]Originally posted by coachformerlyknownas…[/i]
beware anyone who claims to know whats best for you and as well, be careful taking something like this as "gospel"

Very good advice.

[i]Originally posted by coachformerlyknownas…[/i]
Let me also say that I have every confidence in Mike after having followed his career, read his posts, articles, etc.
He is highly respected at the highest level of the sport and if it were a "beauty contest" most people would follow his advice over mine, every day of the week with an extra helping on Sunday!

Dave you're far too humble and far too gracious with your complements.

ELITETRACK Founder

[400stud]

400stud on October 24, 2003 at 1:39 pm #22901

To answer your questions…

I will be training 6x's a week starting in Dec. I'll have access to a gym everyday as well and I'll never miss a workout and will have plenty of time to do everything.

I would like to peak in July and my first competition is sometime in March or April, haven't decided yet.

[mjstocko]

mjstocko on January 18, 2006 at 10:47 am #22902

How is max strength different from the speed power segment? Reps, %'s, Excercises

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on January 18, 2006 at 11:27 am #22903

Sorry for going off topic but could someone explain to me what the difference b/w accumulation weights and hypertrophy weights are? I was always confused by this.

ill agree what is the diff??

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on January 18, 2006 at 1:21 pm #22904

Maximal Strength is the total amount one can lift thru a range of motion 1 single time with no reference to speed.  Power is amount work done over time of which Force and distance are as important as time.  Speed is about the speed of the lift, and speed is affected by load the same as power is.  What I mean by is that high velocity lifts or lifting for power cannot be done at high loads and must be done at submaximal work loads on what is dictated by the force velocity curve.  Maximal strength work helps create higher velocity lifts at submaximal loads though.  However enhancing those speed or power qualities requires specific work.  It's easier to make "powerlifters" into "olympic lifters" than vice-versa, because powerlifters (not really power) have a better maximal strength regime than true power lifters such as those found in the "olumpic lifts".

Hypertrophy lifting is usually has to do with multiple sets of 8-12 reps with typically more than 1 exercise per muscle group and also use of open kinetic chain lifts.  Also the tempo of the lifts is important.  The rest period between sets is also very short.

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on January 18, 2006 at 10:29 pm #22905

so what is accumulation weights ?

[QUIKAZHELL]

QUIKAZHELL on January 19, 2006 at 4:37 am #22906

Dave touched on this earlier and im in total agreence.

Why is everyone (Mike included) so set on a Western Periodization scheme?
I think the congugate system works much better.

GPP- Acummulation Weights (more body weight stuff, more DB work, higher volume etc)Lifting 3-4 days per week

SPP- Lifting 3 days per week- total Body with less advanced athletes and with advanced athletes I prefer a Day #1 lower Day #2 Upper Day 3 #total body
These days follow a conjugate system. With the upper, lower, both split I like to have both the upper day and lower day with a max strength focus and the combo day more of a dynamic and or strength endurance hypertrophy focus depending on the athlete.

Precomp-Lifting 2 days per week both total body
Again following a congugate setup.
Day 1 more of a focus on Max Strength and Day 2 focus more on slightyl more dynamic and unilateral work

Comp- Same as precomp with volume dropped a bit (many way to accomplish this)

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on January 19, 2006 at 5:53 am #22907

why do u like the congugate setup so much??

[QUIKAZHELL]

QUIKAZHELL on January 19, 2006 at 6:18 am #22908

Because this way all the different types of strength are worked year round and no detraining occurs. Training like a bodybuilder for a few weeks, then a powerlifter for a few weeks, then a pseudo olympic lifter for a few weeks just does not make sense to me. Lets train all qualities of strength with varying the focus of each but still keeping all qualities in year round.
With the Western setup you go from hypertrophy to max strength to power and in each phase what you worked hard to gain in the previous phase can be lost to a degree. Also I see no real need in a specific power conversion phase (with the expetion of a taper to hit a peak perhap) if sprinting is being done.

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on January 19, 2006 at 6:37 am #22909

just wanted to get ur thought, but i know mike train all components??

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on January 22, 2006 at 3:49 am #22910

Quik-
I'm not where where you got the idea that I followed a Western periodization scheme but what I do is quite far from a typical Western linear periodization scheme. In fact, with my training setups all aspects of the speed-power-strength continuum are worked all year long. I've never really used a typical 'max strength' phase and in fact I frequently use very heavy lifts all year long. Likewise, I incorporate what you call 'dynamic' work all year long in some form or another.

To be honest I think the 'conjugate' training term has become misconstrued to the point that many people actually interpret anything other than WSBB's interpretation of conjugate training as linear periodization. This is especially true when looking at weight programs of sports where weight training is only one component of the training (like track). Take for example this typical example of a training set up for track which from a narrow interpretation of conjugated training could appear to be linear in nature:
GPP: acceleration work, low intensity plyos, higher volume medium intensity weights
SPP: acceleration work & MaxV, short jumps, and high intensity weights (~max strength)
Pre-Comp:  MaxV & Speed Endurance, dynamic plyos, medium-high intensity weights
Comp: Speed Endurance, depth jumps, 'speed' weights

With a narrow view of conjugated training we'd just look at the weight program and see that it's following somewhat of a linear approach. Looking deeper however we'd see that all aspects of the strength-power-speed continuum are hit during the year with one or more training modalities with emphasis just shifting slightly.  While this isn't necessarily the way I'd recommend setting up the program I think it's hardly a typical Western periodization because for example acceleration work develops speed early in the year while the static strength lifts (squats, presses, etc.) develop strength and the Olympic lifts along with plyos develop power.

ELITETRACK Founder

[mjstocko]

mjstocko on January 23, 2006 at 10:21 am #22911

What would be the correct amount of reps to do for the power/speed phase for example olympic lifts.  Would you start out with 4 reps per set and work your way down to 2 or 1?

[utfootball4]

utfootball4 on January 23, 2006 at 10:32 am #22912

hey mike with the above template i see you are doing speed end in pre-comp/comp, i was wondering is this your overall plan or just indoor season?

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on January 23, 2006 at 11:15 am #22913

What would be the correct amount of reps to do for the power/speed phase for example olympic lifts. Would you start out with 4 reps per set and work your way down to 2 or 1?

That's one way to do it but when using OLs I prefer to do most of the manipulation with intensity (load), density, total volume, and set number while keeping the rep ranges fairly constant.

ELITETRACK Founder

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on January 23, 2006 at 11:17 am #22914

hey mike with the above template i see you are doing speed end in pre-comp/comp, i was wondering is this your overall plan or just indoor season?

It isn't really my template, I really just gave it as an example of a typical yearly periodization scheme.

ELITETRACK Founder

[mjstocko]

mjstocko on February 22, 2006 at 11:08 am #22915

If your doing lower volume and weight in preparation for an indoor championship meet, what do you do for weights at the beginning of outdoor.  Do you go back to heavier weights and higher volumes?