Posted In: Sprints
attached is a training plan for an athlete that i thought some people might want to see. ii’m coaching her via email at the present time (i used to coach her in person but she’s out of the country at the present moment)
Her PR’s are:
24.20ish, 52.98, 1:33, 2:11
we’re shooting for 23.60, 51.20-51.60 this year
also attached w/the training plan are my training routines — it’s obviously heavily influenced by Dan and Boo.
–KT
🙂
here it is
kebba,
one of your workouts listed for her was..
2 x 450m (6 mins), 2 x 300 (5 mins), 2 x 150 (3:30), 2 x 80 (walkback)
450 ~ through 400 in 64
300 ~ 43+
150 ~ 19-20
i am curious as to what you plan to develop by doing these intervals with minimal recovery and at such low intensity? i would think for a quarter miler with goals in the 51 range she has to go out in at least a 38 for the 300 so shouldnt she be training her body to go even faster than that? 43 is way slow for a 51-52 quarter miler. would you classify this workout as special endurance II or put it into a sperate category dealing with the lactic energy system?
Also you have listed 10X2 cleans. that seems like a whole lot of sets that would take a great deal of time. i have no problem with the total volume but can you specify what % of her max that is. also how much recovery between sets since shes doing only 2 reps?
[i]Originally posted by QUIKAZHELL[/i]
kebba,one of your workouts listed for her was..
2 x 450m (6 mins), 2 x 300 (5 mins), 2 x 150 (3:30), 2 x 80 (walkback)
450 ~ through 400 in 64
300 ~ 43+
150 ~ 19-20i am curious as to what you plan to develop by doing these intervals with minimal recovery and at such low intensity? i would think for a quarter miler with goals in the 51 range she has to go out in at least a 38 for the 300 so shouldnt she be training her body to go even faster than that? 43 is way slow for a 51-52 quarter miler. would you classify this workout as special endurance II or put it into a sperate category dealing with the lactic energy system?
Also you have listed 10X2 cleans. that seems like a whole lot of sets that would take a great deal of time. i have no problem with the total volume but can you specify what % of her max that is. also how much recovery between sets since shes doing only 2 reps?
it’s a basic tempo endurance workout about 85%….. the rest is enough to be a challenge but enough to sustain the effort.
in general i’m not a huge proponent of tempo… too many people use it as the staple of their program. and think that if the athlete gets “strong” then they’ll run fast. we do lots/enough speed power work so i don’t worry much/at all about the negative aspects of tempo. plus with 400 people i don’t feel like you can do special endurance all year — too taxing physcially/mentally.. takes too many days to recover. i don’t find it hard bleed/blend into special endurance becuase we end up extending some of our max speed runs into long floating sprints (80-150). we also do a lot of elastic endurance work (long bounding). i’ve found the that combo if speed, accel work with elastic endurance is almost like liquid dynamite. (i actually started an artilce on “strength endurance” a few yrs ago) but the combo allows kids to come out and run some very, very fast special endurance (150-500m) runs at almost any time of year and makes it pretty easy to run rounds.
re – lifting. 10 sets isn’t a “lot” to me. it’s a fairly load, but i’ve done as much as 15 sets before. the load is normally btw 80-95% percent. sometimes from the floor, sometimes from the hang (below knee, above, mid thigh, hip)
recovery btw sets… about 3 mins in general but really whatever it takes to get it done (so at certain times of the year 5-8 mins is fine). but when things fall apart (posture, rhythm/timing) i’ll either stop, change the weight, or change the initial position.
hope that helps,
KT:cool:
your answers make sense but i would just liek to clarify a few more things…
i am assuming that this is during the special prep phase or precomp pphase of you macrocycle since it is 6 training days.. is that right?
ok so basically you week goes like this…
monday-speed (accel)
tues-intensive tempo (85%)
wednesday-hurdle mobility medball stuff basically recovery..
thurs-speed (max velocity) /heavy lift
friday-intensive tempo (85%)
sat-heavy lift
sunday-off
i understand your views about tempo after reading numerous threads you posted on a while back although i do not agree.. but what i would liek to question is if you are doing a max velocity day follwed by a 85% tempo day followed by a heavy lifting day wouldnt this be way to taxing on the central nevous system of your athletes? it just seems that although you have a “tempo” day after the max velocity day you dont have sufficent recovery…..i just belive that work at the 80-85% range is too slow to be of any specific benefit and too fast to be able to recover from and competes with other CNS elements…
Here’s my 2 cents:
-I actually like the 10 x 2 clean protocol. I’m a big fan of a majority of sets being done at lower reps. Research has also indicated that strength gains best come from doing a greater number of sets at a fewer number of exercise than doing a few number of sets at a greater number of exercises. Also, if the goal of the weight room work is to teach the body certain firing patterns or to learn to maximize motor unit recruitment (rather than training for ‘specific strength’), then I think high(er) volumes of squats and cleans are where it’s at. See the thread “strength @ LSU” for further explanation of why I like rep/set protocols like this one.
-Quick, I understand your point about the tempo runs and I’ve given it much thought in the past. While I’m not totally decided this is how I like to think of it…..I think that although tempo runs are not really recovery runs, they do tax a different system(s) than the high intensity sprinting, jumping, and lifting. Tempo runs can be seen as more taxing on the muscular and aerobic / lactate systems, and the higher intensity stuff can be seen as more taxing on the CNS. Because of this, when you alternate days of sprints with days of tempo work, you are giving each system a brief (and possibly not complete) recovery period despite not giving the athlete as a whole much rest. You are right though that it should be monitored closely and the exact benefits of such a protocol are still up for some debate.
ELITETRACK Founder
Kebba, Mike, or JJ
I’ve been wanting to work special endurance work in. Right now the week looks like this;
M max speed
T tempo
W regeneration
H overspeed and form starts
F rest
S compete
I’m trying to work Tuesday into a special endurance day by reducing volume and increasing recovery and intensity. Does that sound like the right day to do it on with a week that has a meet on Friday or Saturday?
DIII,
(As Mike would say, “My 2 cents”)
Assuming that the volume of max speed on Monday isn’t extremely high, I would tag the special endurance on at the end. Keep the reps low (1-2), quality high, and as much recovery as they need. If they bang 2 fast 150s, that is all they need.
I would think twice about putting it on Tuesday, b/c they probably won’t be recovered from Monday (CNS-wise), and the quality might not be what you want. You could put it on Thursday, but you have to be careful with the volume of overall work if you are trying to get marks on Saturday (that being said, if you’re just training through, then Thursday might be OK).
We used this type of session during indoor b/c of facility constraints and it seemed to work well. I just had to decrease the amount of Accel. Dev. or MaxV work that I would normally do in a stand-alone session.
In my opinion, it’s all about managing intensities and watching the volume/# reps carefully. If it starts to look bad, drop it or ‘plan-b’ it.
Hope that helps.
i don’t know about the need (in general) to temp and then regen the next day especially early in the season.
also, i would normally so speed enduirance about 48 hrs after the max V workout (but not always as sometimes i like to go to 2 days CNS type work and 1-2 days of general type work; we’re actually doing that this week — but i think only one of two can be a “high” load. the other should be a medium or low load)
also, i think speed endurance can often be done effectively simply by running the meet
Hurdles, 200, 4×1 is a good speed endurance day — especially given the intensity.
–KT
[i]Originally posted by JJ[/i]
In my opinion, it’s all about managing intensities and watching the volume/# reps carefully. If it starts to look bad, drop it or ‘plan-b’ it.
i agree 100%… all too often people, myself iincluded, are afraid to throw out the plan when it isn’t working or no longer appropiate.
if you have 180’s plannned it’s ok to go to 150’s , 140’s or 120’s if that’s all the athlete can handle after “x” number of reps. or you may want to stop depending on the time of year.
mike….
you said Tempo runs can be seen as more taxing on the muscular and aerobic / lactate systems, and the higher intensity stuff can be seen as more taxing on the CNS…
i totally agree with you on the higher intensity stuff being taxing on the CNS…
but as far as the tempo runs being taxing on the muscular and lactate systems i feel that if you are taxing these systems the intensity is too high and i feel that is what kebba is doing by having his athletes do tempo at 85% after high intensity speed day. 85% i feel depletes your CNS reserves without providing desired training effect. mike i pretty much know how kebaa feels about it but i belive that tempo should not tax your muscular and lactate systems…during tempo my current belief is that i am doing it to facilitate recovery, improve my cardio fitness and increase capilization of muscle.
kebba, it just seems like the cns demands are high.. do your athletes have trouble recovering? are they fresh when they do a speed workout after that 85% tempo session?
also kebba can u give some specific examples of the elastic endurance work you and explain the benifits? maybee you can start a thread on it so we dont get too off track with this thread.
😎
Quik,
Thanks for adding another voice to the discussion. Welcome!
Regarding your view of “tempo” and “85%”: Two things: One: a workout run at 85% is NOT very taxing on the CNS compared to heavy squats, olympic lifts, max velocity or acceleration development work, because as a former sprinter, if a coach instructs me to run a rep at 85%, I am definetly holding back. That holding back is what is preventing me from frying my CNS on the first rep. Plus, I’m assuming that the rep is of a “longer” nature, which will naturally decrease in quality as fatigue sets in, probably ending up at an intensity below 85%.
Secondly, I think it is easy to get caught up in percentages, draw a line and say, “this is too fast, too much CNS fatigue”. I think the intensive tempo (and I very well could be wrong) for a 400 type athlete has it’s place. There is a unique metabolic challenge provided by that type of running which dovetails nicely with the requirements of a fast 400.
By your posts, I can tell that you have studied the teachings of Charlie Francis well, and I applaud you for it. I also think that it is important to not get too dogmatic when analyzing training systems. It is well known that Francis is not a big fan of “intermediate” intensity work, but trust me I’m sure we can find some pretty succesful training plans that use it in the proper context, frequency and volume.
Keep the good posts coming!
jj,
thanx alot…
i nderstand that 85% is not taxing on the CNS nad i thought i made that clear in my last post but what i was trying to say that although it is not taxing on the cns it is not allowing the cns to recovery sufficently from the day befores high intensity work.. as far as 400 training i am not extremly knowlegeable about this isssue as i am aware there are many differnt approaches and as an athlete who also does run the 400 i am looking for new options on training for it so i am glad to hear everyones responses.. please do not think i am not open minded and hard headed on what i think… i am trying to get everything out of everyone and add new concepts and theories to my plan… i am only a 20 year old athlete but i tihnk i have come a long way and i know a decent amount for someone of my age..
DIII-
I think I like Kebba’s suggestion of using low key meets as special endurance days. If you did want to include it in the week I think I’d do like JJ said and piggy back it on an acc. dev. or MaxV day. For example, you could do 3-4 x 80m followed by a 15 minute break and then 1-2 x 180 or 220m with full recovery. Also you might even consider a micro arrangement like the following:
M max speed + special endurance
T tempo or other
W overspeed and form starts
H tempo or other
F acc. dev.
S compete
In this format, putting acceleration development on Friday would serve two functions: 1) it would allow you to work some acc. dev. into your week; and 2) it would fire up / stimulate the CNS just prior to a meet.
You’d obviously want to keep Friday’s volume extremely low which would also work out perfect considering 400m sprinters do not need as much acc. dev. work as short sprinters.
Quick-
I’m not fully decided yet but my current thinking is that even 85% is relatively slow for a sprinter and still very low CNS demand. I’m more sure about that than I am about the actual value of tempo itself. Which is to say that we might come to the same conclusion but for different reasons. Having said that, I definitely believe tempo has a place for long sprinters.
ELITETRACK Founder
We have been using 85% intensity quite alot this season and I just wanted to add that a significant factor for us is the individual athlete and their perception of 85%. I have some that run to fast and some that run to slow.
With that in mind, I think it has worked well for us to have a 3 week cycle and have a strength week, speed endurance week, and a specific speed week. Those themes worked into what we try and do at the meet that weekend. To this point it seems to be working well. We will see in the next 6 weeks how well.
We have been using 85% intensity quite alot this season and I just wanted to add that a significant factor for us is the individual athlete and their perception of 85%. I have some that run to fast and some that run to slow.
this is why it should be timed… they shouldnt be running that % of there all time personal best but that percent of the time they are at at that part of the season…
We time everything but I can’t very well stop someone a couple hundred meters into a run and start them over. I would argue that 85% varies day to day for each athlete so when I say 85% or 90% that has to translate to perceived effort. I am not sure that a mathematical expression of a time percentage is accurate. I would however be interested in knowing how everyone else determines percentage.
when i am doing my max speed or accel runs under 100 meters i do not time them.. i simply go as fast as i can possibly go staying relaxed (that is 90-95% for me).. as far as distances over 100 meters… 150’s 200’s 300’s in particular if i am planing to go 90-95% i use a calculator and find out how fast 90% of my best distance that is for that time of the season and go from there… for example if i am doing 200’s and its mid season and my best 200 is 21.8 i caluculate how fast 90% would be…. as for the 150’s i have a calcualtor that predicts times so i use that….
Thanks Kebba for posting the micro’s for your athlete and I always love the names you use in your menus.
Some thoughts on a few things mentioned above-
1) JJ- Great, great thoughts on managing intensities/volumes and going with plan b. I think too often as coaches, we feel like we need to get ‘x’ number of workouts in, in a week. Sometimes we need to look past the 7 day calendar though and maybe use a 10-14 day setup.
2) Keith- In your sample micro, I would also be interested in what you had the Fri,Sat,Sun before that Monday. A good hard comp on that Fri/Sat followed by another weekend of competing, may have different needs. Again, sometimes as coaches, we take what we hear and read from great coaches and see how their weeks are set up and what we don’t often see is what they did the week before. They show us their ideal and ultimate week.
3) Special endurance from meets. We have an early outdoor conference meet (third week of April). We will compete 5 consecutive weekends leading up to that meet, several of those meets are two day affairs. Any type of SE that we get comes from those meets, (most of our people will run 100 and 200 and a 4 x 100 or something like that) during the week, we’re just trying to stay fresh, hit a vmax session and some blocks. The real balance for us, is trying to manage our regional qualifiers, who will have another 6 weeks from conference to regionals. The intensities and volumes for those athletes change to set up the 6 additional weeks.
4) The tempo debate rages on. From what I’ve seen and read from him, Clyde Hart would have a few strong words in support of tempo training in the 80-85% range for 400 runners.
Thanks to everyone for all their thoughts, fun to read and think about.
I can’t adequately thank you fellas for your help. Without any assistant coaches it’s so helpful to get input from peers in the “field.” JJ, your piggy back plan would make the most sense as that seems to be the day that I would get the quality I am seeking. This crew has not done true special endurance since they’ve been in college and while that surprises me, it also encourages me because I know how much they will improve when they master that part of training.
I’ll let you all know how it works out. Keep up the fantastic work men. This is too good a board to let fade out.
It really makes me look forward to Level II school!
[i]Originally posted by QUIKAZHELL[/i]
mike….
you said Tempo runs can be seen as more taxing on the muscular and aerobic / lactate systems, and the higher intensity stuff can be seen as more taxing on the CNS…
i totally agree with you on the higher intensity stuff being taxing on the CNS…
but as far as the tempo runs being taxing on the muscular and lactate systems i feel that if you are taxing these systems the intensity is too high and i feel that is what kebba is doing by having his athletes do tempo at 85% after high intensity speed day. 85% i feel depletes your CNS reserves without providing desired training effect. mike i pretty much know how kebaa feels about it but i belive that tempo should not tax your muscular and lactate systems…during tempo my current belief is that i am doing it to facilitate recovery, improve my cardio fitness and increase capilization of muscle.kebba, it just seems like the cns demands are high.. do your athletes have trouble recovering? are they fresh when they do a speed workout after that 85% tempo session?
also kebba can u give some specific examples of the elastic endurance work you and explain the benifits? maybee you can start a thread on it so we dont get too off track with this thread.
😎
i’ve been out of town for a few days…
re: elastic endurance
1) sets of in-place types jumps with breaks of 20 sec to 1 mins btw. sometimes loaded. sometimes with sprint drills btw
2) endurance bounding(atl, scissor, RRRR, LLLL, etc) – e.g., 5-20 x 30-120m. Sometimes loaded…. often with a 5-10m run-in. sometimes uphill. sometimes with spikes.
re – freshness and 85% loads..
i haven’t really had problems with athletes being able to to due work the next day at a high quality. i also think the 400m is a little bit diff animal in that you’d better do some endurance type work in that range. I don’t think tempo btw 70-80% develops any speciific endurance for that event (there are other impt uses for it, however) and special endiurance is very, very taxing physically and more so psychologically.
i also feel that “intensive” tempo is a good bridge btw the two. but 85% really doesn’t feel very fast to them. i also think that even 90% doesn’t seem that fast. my feedback from the athletes is the 92% plus stiuff is what really taxes them.
i also think the same is true of flying type sprints. it’s hard for athletes to get mentally prepared to do the type of work it takes for the session to be really worthwhile. So a lot of times I see people doing flying 60’s and in-outs for long distances as speed developmnent… it really isn’t and i don’t think most kids have that type of mental capacity. If you’ve got a girl who can fly say 3.18 for 30m. if she goes under 6.45 for 60 fly that’s a super, super effort. even though a lot of the charts will tell you she should be able to go 6.36. i’va had some fairly talented athletes and i think only one has been able to do it.
Secondly, I think it is easy to get caught up in percentages, draw a line and say, “this is too fast, too much CNS fatigue”. I think the intensive tempo (and I very well could be wrong) for a 400 type athlete has it’s place. There is a unique metabolic challenge provided by that type of running which dovetails nicely with the requirements of a fast 400.
As the distance increases past the 100m some intensive tempo seems to work. Intermediate speeds can be added to unload the CNS and train more metabolic work for the 400m athletes. Like Marita Koch, we are bumping an athlete to the 400 next year after injuries in the 100m have made him unable to compete more then a few times. I think he can go sub 44.5 if he is healthy from his speed since endurance qualities are far easier to improve from hard work.
My feelings that the CNS has three primary factors.
(1) Type of stress(sport or activity)
(2) Duration of stress
(3) Intensity of stress
Differences between events? The 100m is a 10 second event and the 400 is a 44 second event. So the duration is 4 times longer for 400 then 100. Simple math but it’s also fuzzy math.
Let’s say J.Hooker runs the 100m in a 10.2 and the 400 in a 45…What is more taxing on the CNS? The difference is the absolute intensity not relative intensity. 10 meters per second over a longer time does not equal to 11.8 meters per second for a few seconds. You can’t multiply the distance x speed to get the volume. My brain, laced with caffine and donunts, thinks that speed works in a logarthimic scale at near max velocity. Max torque or power at the hip for 20 strides is a little more taxing on the CNS then 350meters (minus acceleration) of sub max work over time.
Maximal contractions vs submaximal contractions over time has major differences. Could someone share how they would use intermediate work?
one of my thoughts in the 100/400 thing are that I’ve seen many a sprinter who is better suited physiologically for the 400, but they can’t fulfill the psychological demands of the pain of the event. There is something about special endurance work that prepares the mind as well as the body. I recall Butch Reynolds saying that after his world record, he wasn’t sure he ever wanted to hurt that badly again and I just cringed. I’m not slamming sprinters one bit, but it amazes me when you get folks that talk all kinds of stuff and then see them run and hide when it’s time to run a 4 x 4. You find out who your truly tough guys are when it’s time for an all out 400!!
I have a question….
Let’s say you have a 20.8 220m sprinter that wants to run a 44.5 in the 400m…what goal times should he have for the 200m? I was thinking he would need 20.4-20.5 speed.
I would agree with you.
ELITETRACK Founder
It seems like the mid-20’s would be good. The hard part is in determing how much heart an athlete has. Some people just don’t like to hurt so it inhibits their 400m ability **greatly** I had a woman that split 52.1 in March that could run sub-23.0 but she was afraid to go out in sub 24.5 for her 200m. Right now her open PR is 53.49. I have another athlete who’s 200m best is 24.15ish and has a PR of 52.98. I have another who ran 23.43 and has a PR of 53.00 but wouldn’t go out in 24-mid. So I think that have to believe in themselves and be willing to suffer as well.
Phoenix, did you get my u2u?
I have a guy Kebba that is so agreesive he goes out near PR times in the 200 and ususally fades the last 100m. I think the key to the last 100m is TUA or early speed work. No KT, I didn’t get a U2U.
does he just get anxious? cuz no matter what even if he gets faster and goes out near his PR he’ll still be in trouble near the end.
Kebba,
A pure mustang…we just need to wisper in his ear and teach the pace. This is far better problem the dealing with a 400m runner that does the 100m cause he is scared. Any word on the ice bath research Kebba?
[i]Originally posted by Phoenix[/i]
Kebba,A pure mustang…we just need to wisper in his ear and teach the pace. This is far better problem the dealing with a 400m runner that does the 100m cause he is scared. Any word on the ice bath research Kebba?
i agree 100%!! at least he’s willing to suffer…..
re- ice bath stuff… drop me an email…
it’s not really the 200 PR that matters it’s the capacity to do certain types of things… what I mean is that it’s often the case that athletes don’t run their “other” races when they’re in the super shape. Michael Johnson ran 10.09 but certain had speed faster than that.
A lot of the Soviet/German hurdlers had the capacity to run faster 100m/200m times than their listed PR’s so looking at differentials are tricky….
but Butch was running 20.40 probaby imdicates he could’ve gone about 20.10 or so because Egbunike and Everett had low-20 PR’s.
Great post KT….
Division III Coach, my guy ran a 33.5 on his 300m run. One benefit to to the longer events is that hand times are closer to FAT time(sigh). The great thing about his run is that this is the second week all year that he ran longer then 60m. If he ran faster then 10.2 speed he would get hurt near the insertion of the hamstring tendon. His bump up to the 400 is the smartest thing I have done as a coach. I listened to him!
I was wondering about a hybrid run of 500 meters. Sprint at 95% for 300 then go intensive tempo for 200m? I am just so confused on this. The paradox must be a balance of overdistance, volume, and speed. I am going to download KT’s training plan and revaluate what I am doing.
[i]Originally posted by Phoenix[/i]
I was wondering about a hybrid run of 500 meters. Sprint at 95% for 300 then go intensive tempo for 200m? I am just so confused on this. The paradox must be a balance of overdistance, volume, and speed. I am going to download KT’s training plan and revaluate what I am doing.
that balance i think is hard… but in times of injury i’ve been able to implement some plan “B” type stuff and get some pretty good 200/400 results (actually PR’s in a few instances). The main thing(and probablymost impt thing) i’ve tried to do is find ways to keep the power output very high!! thus:
**mutli-throws (single leg if needed)
**hurdle hops (high or low depending on injury/athlete)
**multi-jumps with and w/o resistance (one legged if neccesary)
**sprint driills w/and w/o resistance or with assistance.
**very heavy lifts w/in the ranges of motion they could handle.
i’ve also found PNF and “muscle re-education” (basically re-teaching firing patterns and ROM) impt to be very helpfiul during this time.
we obviously do other things as well such as therapy, medball work, gen str, etc.. so we try to keep as much normal training going as possible. so jump tech might be straight poing, one handers, or high bar instrad of 8-12 step jumping. Acceleration Devel may be on the bike with high resistance or it may be 5-15 meter runs with a 20-25 meter slowdown zones. max velocity work might be stairs or loaded in place jumps… i also tend to do a lot visuallization during this time as well — so thet they don’t visualize themselves as injured athletes.