[busdriver44]

busdriver44 on January 13, 2005 at 3:01 am #10265

Many training schedules consist of a hard day followed by a long run(40 min +)Would someone not doing the long runs not improve as well? My view is that you have less of a chance of getting injured and more time to rest joints when skipping the long run. What do you guys think?

Here is what i think would be a good routine for most people-
Monday- leg work out followed by intervals( some accelerade after lifting”
Tues- Upper body work out
Wed- lifting followed by running on a decent incline that lasts about 100 yards, rest then repeat
Thurs- Upperbody
Friday- Cross-training( pick up game of basketball or about 20 min bike ride for as fast you can for that time period) I read in i think it was runners world that running up stairs is terrific for running substitute.
Sat Sun- Do thing that you love that you have no time to do during the week

[Carson Boddicker]

Carson Boddicker on January 13, 2005 at 5:28 am #40552

I find the long run as a critical piece of my training. I feel that if you leave the long run out, you are neglecting a huge part of your endurance(mental/physical). While some will say they do just fine without them, most(if not all) elite runners do some type of long run during their training phases.

[rice773]

rice773 on January 13, 2005 at 6:39 am #40553

[i]Originally posted by busdriver44[/i]
Many training schedules consist of a hard day followed by a long run(40 min +)Would someone not doing the long runs not improve as well? My view is that you have less of a chance of getting injured and more time to rest joints when skipping the long run. What do you guys think?

Here is what i think would be a good routine for most people-
Monday- leg work out followed by intervals( some accelerade after lifting”
Tues- Upper body work out
Wed- lifting followed by running on a decent incline that lasts about 100 yards, rest then repeat
Thurs- Upperbody
Friday- Cross-training( pick up game of basketball or about 20 min bike ride for as fast you can for that time period) I read in i think it was runners world that running up stairs is terrific for running substitute.
Sat Sun- Do thing that you love that you have no time to do during the week

Why split the weights into upper/lower? Do full body on your hard days and you will recover faster. I don’t know what sort of lifts you refer to by ‘upper body’ but in terms of CNS recovery it’s not a good idea to have consecutive high intensity workouts.

As for the long runs, we would have to know what event you are training for. I also believe it depends a great deal on the athlete.

[busdriver44]

busdriver44 on January 13, 2005 at 7:41 am #40554

i guess i should have been more specific;)
i am traininf for cross-country( 5k)
the reason i split upper and lower is because i would be in the weight room for 2 hours
by upperbody lifting i mean about 3 exercises for each muscle
(ie for chest- flat bench, incline, decline)

[CoachKW]

CoachKW on January 13, 2005 at 8:14 am #40555

Many people call the long run the most important piece of a distance runner’s program. I’m not sure I would go that far, but it only makes sense that to get better at an endurance event, you would first improve endurance by having at least one session per 7-10 days in which you run increasingly longer distances.

There are many physiological reasons for doing so including the building of mitochondrial density, higher % of lean body mass as well as becoming biomechanically and cardiovascularly more efficient.

It also works the psychological side of the things by helping you to focus for longer periods of time. I’ve always found the long run to be an ideal time to “dream big.” Thinking about the goals you’d like to hit or imagining yourself as a powerful running animal gliding effortlessly across the terrain while just punishing the opposition.

To give you an idea of what a good long run is-there are many people who advocate going at least 3 x the race distance (with the exception of the marathon, of course). It should be the least intense run of the week in terms of pace though.

As far as the lifting goes-3 lifts per muscle is just too much. Lifting should be a complimentary portion of a longer distance runner’s routine, not a lengthy time consuming item. You’d be better off spending that time on your abs (IMHO)

[rice773]

rice773 on January 13, 2005 at 9:14 am #40556

[i]Originally posted by KW[/i]
Many people call the long run the most important piece of a distance runner’s program. I’m not sure I would go that far, but it only makes sense that to get better at an endurance event, you would first improve endurance by having at least one session per 7-10 days in which you run increasingly longer distances.

There are many physiological reasons for doing so including the building of mitochondrial density, higher % of lean body mass as well as becoming biomechanically and cardiovascularly more efficient.

It also works the psychological side of the things by helping you to focus for longer periods of time. I’ve always found the long run to be an ideal time to “dream big.” Thinking about the goals you’d like to hit or imagining yourself as a powerful running animal gliding effortlessly across the terrain while just punishing the opposition.

To give you an idea of what a good long run is-there are many people who advocate going at least 3 x the race distance (with the exception of the marathon, of course). It should be the least intense run of the week in terms of pace though.

As far as the lifting goes-3 lifts per muscle is just too much. Lifting should be a complimentary portion of a longer distance runner’s routine, not a lengthy time consuming item. You’d be better off spending that time on your abs (IMHO)

I agree with everything above, an excellent post.

[800prince]

800prince on January 13, 2005 at 10:24 am #40557

It takes me 30 minutes to lift full body. How is doing 3 exercises for your chest going to help your 5k. How are 3 exercises better than one? Most people on this board are athletes so that’s how we lift. We train movements not individual muscles. This is one of the things that bothers me the most. I feel sorry for the guys I see at the gym who follow the latest split routine from M&F. You can build muscle much better by doing a few compound exercises than with a dozen sets for each muscle.

[Mike Young]

Mike Young on January 15, 2005 at 11:42 am #40558

I don’t think you can compete at your top level in an endurance event without runs over 40 minutes at least once a week. Even the most speed-based programs that I’ve seen wouldn’t even consider that a long run. Also, long runs may actually help to prevent the very things you are suggesting may be reasons to avoid them. That is, weekly long runs may actually strengthen joints if done on anything but concrete.

ELITETRACK Founder

[fraek]

fraek on January 15, 2005 at 9:02 pm #40559

[i]Originally posted by 800prince[/i]
It takes me 30 minutes to lift full body. How is doing 3 exercises for your chest going to help your 5k. How are 3 exercises better than one? Most people on this board are athletes so that’s how we lift. We train movements not individual muscles. This is one of the things that bothers me the most. I feel sorry for the guys I see at the gym who follow the latest split routine from M&F. You can build muscle much better by doing a few compound exercises than with a dozen sets for each muscle.

Can you give an example, or start another thread on this topic because i think it is very intresting. For example, what do you mean by “We train movements not individual muscles”. Do you mean that every lifting should be a compound movement that incorporates every muscle, or are you saying that in an exercise session every body part should be lifting, because in running every body part is used.

Also would splitting workouts into lower and upper body, be just as bad as splitting workouts into muscle groups.

It would also be interesting to see a sample workout which you use in lifting.

[800prince]

800prince on January 15, 2005 at 10:14 pm #40560

Here’s the current set-up I will be using.
I’m going to focus on brining up my max strength, because I recently hit a pr in power cleans and am droppping off badly, I need a break from them.
Monday
3 sets of light progressive range Clean and Jerk (hip, thigh, above knee, below knee, ground) to warm-up and maintain form.
Back squat 5×3 @60%+purple bands
Pull-ups
DB push-up/1 arm row combo
GHR

Wednesday
DB jerks to warm-up
DB Split Squat 3×5
Towel Chins
Dips
Bodyweight Rows
Reverse Hypers

Friday
Light power snatches to warm-up
Reverse Band Trap Bar Deadlift 12×1 @85%
Weighted Decline Push-ups
Sternum Chins
GHR

That’s all I do in the weight. My usual set-up is something like
Warm-up/Hurdle Mobility
Track workout
3-5 Multi Jump exercises (nothing real intense)
Weights
Med Ball exercises
Lunge Series to cool down and dynamic flexibilty

I feel I had been putting too much emphasis on weights in the past. I feel what I have now gives me a good balance of everything.

[CoachKW]

CoachKW on January 17, 2005 at 1:27 am #40561

Mike hit the nail on the head. In my humble opinion based on 20 years of running/racing and about 10 years or so of coaching, you can’t hit the top end of your capabilities as a distance runner without paying the aerobic price over a fairly lengthy period of time both within a year and from year to year. That includes a long run nearly every week and-in my mind- also would include many days per week of twice a day running. I could go into the physiology behind it, but suffice it to say that there are very very few people in the history of the sport who have done well without those two components. The lifting etc. are great compliments to that, but the main thing is racking up the miles and building a great platform from which to add the quality work that finishes the preparation to race effectively.

[800prince]

800prince on January 17, 2005 at 3:30 am #40562

I agree. One thing you don’t take into account (can’t hold it against you cause no coach does), is the physiological effect running long has on different types of runners. The effects will be tremendously different for runner A- a 5’6 130 pound 5k runner with mostly slow-twitch fibers compared to runner B- a 6’4 210 pound 800m runner with a lot of fast-twitch fibers. The benefits will be far greater and the disadvantages far less for runner A. Conversely runner B will get hardly any benefit and stands to lose a lot in the way of running economy and speed.

[CoachKW]

CoachKW on January 17, 2005 at 8:30 am #40563

I couldn’t disagree more. Look at Joaquim Cruz and Paul McMullen. Both are fairly big guys who did lots of longer runs. You can’t escape the physiological demands of the event and if you are going to excel at the 800, you need to have at least one long run per week. You might get away with not doing one when it comes to just running one race in a one day meet, but where it really comes back to bite you is in a meet with multiple rounds.

I dare say that a 6’4″ 210 runner is in the wrong event…

[800prince]

800prince on January 18, 2005 at 2:07 am #40564

Well you have your opinion and I have mine. As far as being too big for 800m, I’d say my first couple 800m type workouts 8×200 in 24-25 and 4×300 in 42 from lane 8:wow: say otherwise. I got a meet on the 29th If I run 800m i’m expecting mid 1:50’s. I just don’t think that a run over 6 miles is necessary to excel at 800m. I can point to examples at all levels. Have you ever seen a high school 400m runner break two flat their first time in an 800m. I have. I’ve also seen mid 1:50’s on less than 10 miles a week. Juantorea trained as a 400m runner and was coaxed to run the 800m at the Olympics. He did pretty well in fact. Think of all the rounds he had to run for that double. That’s another point the type of endurance to run multiple rounds would come from doing near race pace intervals at 600-800m with a long rest, not from long runs. I think long runs are necesary for 3k and up, maybe even for 1500m. What constitutes a long run is different for each event. What’s one good reason to run for 30 times longer than the event you plan to compete in. A 4 miler at threshold pace is to 800m what a 10 mile long run is to 5k.

[tg]

tg on January 18, 2005 at 2:59 am #40565

I have to agree with Coach Whitman and Mike

I think the 800m runners prince mentioned are more the exception than the rule. Breaking 2 is not fast…Mid 1:50’s is not that fast…sub 1:48 and you are starting to get “fast”. Just think if these guys you speak of actually trained (well, I suppose the olympian trained…).

An 800m runner needs at least one long run a week (>60min) carried out for the majority of the year. You can back off as you start to get into outdoor season. From personal experience improved aerobic capacity allowed me to recover faster and handle higher volumes of quick reps on the track. This in turn led to faster times as I progressed through college. You have 6 additional days in the week that can be devoted to faster stuff.

BTW….As a former “Student Prince” I think I need to purchase the rights to the name 800prince.:D

[800prince]

800prince on January 18, 2005 at 3:46 am #40566

1:54 is really fast for high school. I also said breaking 2:00 the first time trying the event, did you do that? I sure as hell didn’t. To clarify Juantorena won gold in the 400m and 800m at the 1976 Olympics. Actually with a long run included the average American runner (at least us slow one’s who haven’t broken 1:50)would only be able to get two or at at most three quality days in. It’s funny how I’m open-minded about it and you two are so unrelenting,closed-minded. TG and KW-an 800m doesn’t need to do anything accept show up on race day and run two laps. Familiar with “more than one road to Rome”? As for the name it’s MY event and MY last name thus it’s MY handle.

[CoachKW]

CoachKW on January 18, 2005 at 4:27 am #40567

800Prince,
Hey it’s cool that you are into your event. I can dig that as I was all about the 1500 for many years and did everything I could to be as good as I could be. I see those qualities in you and that’s a good thing.

Ironically, as you claim to be open minded, you seem unwilling to consider what I have been saying about a long run. What you see as closemindedness in me is actually a couple decades of experience both as a competitor and as a coach. As TG said, Alberto Juantorena was the exception who did not disprove the rule. I wonder how many more years he could have been great at 800 had he bothered to put in a substantial aerobic base because after 1978 he had to quit the 800.

1:54 is pretty good for high school, but considering that the national hs record is 1:46-I’m not sure about calling it really good. That’s not just my opinion, but rather one that is shared by people who really know the sport. Those track workouts are pretty nice also, but they are but one part of what could be considered a complete program. Shoot, given my choice I would do those type of workouts quite often also. But, I stand by what I’ve been saying and that is if you really want to be as good as you can be in races of 800 meters and above, then you need to have a long run in your program. Prove me wrong by doing them once a week for one year. If you see no improvement at all, then never do one again. But, if I’m right, then you will have gained big time.

There are many good reasons for doing a long run (3x longer, not 30 btw). Improved mitochondrial density-since mitochondria are the power factories of the muscles. Increased economy, improved lean body mass ratio, improved VO2 max, and there is substantial research that shows that you can actually work fast twitch fibers when the glycogen stores are close to being depleted.

The 4 mile threshold run is not equivalent to the ten mile run because we are talking about different energy systems being used.

You are correct in saying that a long run is relative. I have had great success in coaching the 400/800 type of runner. Many times I would send groups out for a long run of 60 minutes. In that time I would expect the 5k/10k type of runner to run farther in that period of time and that’s ok. I also back off of saying that the 800 is the wrong event for the 6’4″ 210 guy-that should be his call.

Also, the prince comment by TG was merely an attempt to lighten the atmosphere a bit as his school’s monicker is the Student Princes. Nobody is trying to take anything from you 800P=but as long as you are trying to get people to see your side, you could try extending the same courtesy?

[800prince]

800prince on January 18, 2005 at 5:03 am #40568

“The 4 mile threshold run is not equivalent to the ten mile run because we are talking about different energy systems being used. ” The exact same in regards to the events. Honestly, I know about all the mitochonria and capillaries benefits, but there has to be some limited returns. My resting pulse is already in the 30’s for crying out loud. How much more can that be developed. With the times I mentioned I was talking about my friends an teammates, not national record holders. I was also talking 60 minutes and 2 minutes to get 30 times longer, not 5k and 10 miles. I did do cross country my freshman year of college and I felt it really screwed me over for track. I just came off a long season of indoor/outdoor/summer track and needed to gradually get back into longer running. The very first day I arrived on campus we had camp. The first day it was supposed to be a recovery run and all the upperclassmen made me stay up with them. It was like a 10k race for me, not recovery. I had to find my way back by myself. The next day we had a 3km time trial and I got my ass smoked cause I was still dead from the day before. Then we had practice again in the afternoon. I had hardly eaten this whole time and the whole experience wrecked me mentallyand physically. I was convinced long runs are untalented people’s way of making those blessed with speed hate running. Guys I would beat in races would act like their studs cause they went longer on the long run or put in more mileage. I’m like who cares. This is just my personal experience. My main feeling is I’m not lacking in aerobic enduance, I just have major problems with injuries if my mileage gets too high. My 210 lb body can’t take the pounding. I’ve had to find alternatives to long runs and added more intense 4-6 mile runs, aquajogging, swimming, cycling, general strength circuits and even Olympic Lifting have helped keep me in shape.

[CoachKW]

CoachKW on January 18, 2005 at 5:29 am #40569

I have seen that scenario repeated at colleges all over the country. A more progressive approach would have spared you a bad experience. That’s too bad because any self respecting coach never would have let that happen, but instead would have had the athletes seperated into appropriate training groups. There was just no good reason to have you running a 3k time trial if the coach had done his/her homework and already had a sensible plan in place.

Believe it or not, there are people who are both blessed with speed AND endurance. Those people, more often than not, are the ones winning middle distance races my friend. Of course, be progressive about your volume and find the amount that works for you.

[Carson Boddicker]

Carson Boddicker on January 18, 2005 at 5:29 am #40570

not taking sides here, but your PRs in your training log are
1:57=58.5 a lap
4:45=71.25 a lap
If one were to take Horwill’s 4 second rule, which some have further adapted to a 5 second rule for 5 min milers, if you were properly fit you would only slow down 5s/lap as the distance doubles. Just my $.02, though.

[800prince]

800prince on January 18, 2005 at 5:41 am #40571

I could go 4:30 pretty easily. That’s 67 a lap. An 8 second conversion. I think what you’ll find is that conversion is more accurate for elite middle distance runners. High school guys with great endurance compared to their speed may have a 6 second differential for 800 to mile. I think a more accurate representation would be my 400m to 800m. My best open 400 is high 51 so. 58.5 -52=6.5

[Carson Boddicker]

Carson Boddicker on January 18, 2005 at 5:56 am #40572

[i]Originally posted by 800prince[/i]
I think what you’ll find is that conversion is more accurate for elite middle distance runners.

Thats the 4 second rule for 4 min milers. The adapted 5 second rule goes for 5 min milers and 6 for 6 min milers etc.