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Weight control
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Participant
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Participant
Scales will never give you an accurate body fat reading – ignore them. 10 Ibs of muscle since easter also seems unlikely – its likely to also be fat. Or it could just be a heavy day – were you overly hydrated, or eaten alot the day prior/that day?
In terms of diet, I could write a whole post on how to loose weight, if you need/want it?
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Participant
I’d like to see speedfreak’s post as well. Me personally, what I’ve noticed, the main cause of excesive body fat is not a total cal intake, but foods which I eat. Before I ate not much, but still had more fat than now, even if I eat more cal through the day at the moment. Main diet rules wich I try to follow are: I try to avoid processed foods, don’t consume dairy products, don’t eat starchy foods like potatoes, foods of flour as well wich are almost empty cal, 90% of my diet is raw, don’t consume simple sugar (except some dark chocolate). I consume very minimal animal foods and usually it’s fish. I think I get enough protein from this food and I don’t think that a sprinter needs as much protein as it’s assumed like 1.5 and more per kg through the day. It’s necessary if an athlete doesn’t get enough carbohydrates and this is my main fuel.
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Participant
Scales will never give you an accurate body fat reading – ignore them. 10 Ibs of muscle since easter also seems unlikely – its likely to also be fat. Or it could just be a heavy day – were you overly hydrated, or eaten alot the day prior/that day?
In terms of diet, I could write a whole post on how to loose weight, if you need/want it?
It was quite a heavy day, i pig out quite alot when i play my 360. Way too many carbs and milkshakes and i just bought 10 games….. I was about 75kg before easter, went up to 80 last week, today i am 78 and am starving! I am jumping in 2 days and was thinking of sitting in the sauna for ages and not drinking much over the next 48 hours, bad idea?
I think we would all appreciate a post on how to lose weight from you.
This is important to me because my added weight has had me feel more powerful but slightly slower and have longer strides now and cannot adjust my run up to it (LJ) – i have fouled out 2 weeks in a row now. I cannot think of any other reason but the weight gain/more str.
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Participant
Effectively, my view on diet is some form of carb restriction, often quite severe – I can go as long as 80g carbs per day. Carbs cause a rise in insulin, which isnt a bad thing on the whole, and is actually positive post-training, but if you want to loose weight, you want the opposite hormone to insulin, glycogen, to be released. This is released when protein/fat is ingested. Protein also requires more energy that fat and carbs to be digested – so you can eat more of it. Following this, I go for a very high protein diet (Im talking over 2g protein per kg body weight, protein shakes 3/4 times per day). Ingesting protein with carbs also causes the insulin release to be lower, which is therefore good. Other supplements for fat loss that I like are caffeine, which can increase fat metabolism (but causes CHO sparing, hence the need for low CHO diet) and increase metabolism – both of these are good. On a low carb diet, you will feel fairly tired anyway – hence the need for caffeine. ALCAR and CLA are also possibly good supplements to use, but the jury is out, and the effects might not quite be as large.
So, without giving too much away, here is an outline of my diet:
Breakfast – 40g porridge and 2 eggs
Post-Training – Protein shake
Lunch – Chicken salad and pitta bread
Mid-Afternoon – Protein shake and fruit
Dinner – Meat/Salad/small amount of rice/pasta
Pre-Bed – Sugar free jelly and protein shake.Im quite interested to hormonal manipulation through diet too – note the lack of carbs post training for HGH release. There are also other things I do, but they will remain a secret. Note also that is a very low calorie diet (im talking sub 2000), so it isnt for everyone, and most certainly isnt for the comp phase. I also supplement heavily with a lot of vitamin/mineral supplements, well over the RDA for most of them.
Thats a general guideline, I could talk for hours about diet – any specific questions I am happy to help, but remember I am not a qualified nutritionist (but I have seen some very good ones, and done plenty of research).
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Participant
very interesting post.
whats the reasoning behind no carbs post training? i thought that was one of the most agreed upon recovery strategies.
Also i think it would be really interesting if you had recollection of what you use to eat when you first ran that 10.22 a few years ago and how you would say your body has changed since then?
I am guessing you are heavier now than you were because of muscle mass but do you have any idea what your body fat was like?
I do agree that carbs need to be limited to lose weight. My particular approach is to limit carbs pre training and have them only afterwards for recvory reasons. Especially sugar which should be limited at all times except post exercise.
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Participant
Nutrition isnt all that difficult once you get down a few basics. First off, if you are in a calorie surplus you will gain weight. If you are in a deficit, you will lose weight. Notice I said weight and not fat. Under certain circumstances you will gain and drop water weight and waste rapidly that can cause a major swing in weight over a short period of time. I am a fan of limiting carbs as far as my own diet is concerned, but that’s bc I only train twice a week.
I think a better recommendation is to set your protein intake at a level that will allow you to preserve muscle(.8-1g per lb), then tweak fats and carbs to fit your calorie needs. As a general rule most moderately active people’s Basal Metabolic Rate yields a calorie need of 14-16cals per lb. So if you weigh 170 lbs you’d need roughly 2550 cals to maintain your current weight(not including exercise). You can use a multiplier to estimate how much above your BMR your total calorie needs are on average.(https://www.caloriesperhour.com/tutorial_BMR.php) From there, set a managable deficit like 500cals a day, which will yield 1 lb a week of FAT loss. Or go slighly more aggressive and shoot for 750 0r 1000cal deficit per day. Just be forewarned that the larger the deficit, the less energy you will have for workouts. And inseason athlete might take the 500kcal approach while offseason might take the 1000kcal approach.
I recommend reading the article Fat Loss for Athletes by Lyle McDonald. He know’s his stuff about nutrition.
https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/category/fat-loss/fat-loss-diets-fat-lossJust my $.02
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Participant
very interesting post.
whats the reasoning behind no carbs post training? i thought that was one of the most agreed upon recovery strategies.
Also i think it would be really interesting if you had recollection of what you use to eat when you first ran that 10.22 a few years ago and how you would say your body has changed since then?
I am guessing you are heavier now than you were because of muscle mass but do you have any idea what your body fat was like?
I do agree that carbs need to be limited to lose weight. My particular approach is to limit carbs pre training and have them only afterwards for recvory reasons. Especially sugar which should be limited at all times except post exercise.
No carbs post training might increase HGH secretion post training, which is useful. Also, how much glycogen do you think is depleted post-sprinting and lifting? Probably not a huge amount. Im not saying carbs arent important here, they are, an in season I would use them immediately post training, but if you are trying to loose weight, here is a good time to cut carbs.
When I ran 10.22, my body fat was around 14%. I ate fairly high carb, as I thought this was good, and probably low protein.
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Participant
Effectively, my view on diet is some form of carb restriction, often quite severe – I can go as long as 80g carbs per day. Carbs cause a rise in insulin, which isnt a bad thing on the whole, and is actually positive post-training, but if you want to loose weight, you want the opposite hormone to insulin, glycogen, to be released. This is released when protein/fat is ingested. Protein also requires more energy that fat and carbs to be digested – so you can eat more of it. Following this, I go for a very high protein diet (Im talking over 2g protein per kg body weight, protein shakes 3/4 times per day). Ingesting protein with carbs also causes the insulin release to be lower, which is therefore good. Other supplements for fat loss that I like are caffeine, which can increase fat metabolism (but causes CHO sparing, hence the need for low CHO diet) and increase metabolism – both of these are good. On a low carb diet, you will feel fairly tired anyway – hence the need for caffeine. ALCAR and CLA are also possibly good supplements to use, but the jury is out, and the effects might not quite be as large.
So, without giving too much away, here is an outline of my diet:
Breakfast – 40g porridge and 2 eggs
Post-Training – Protein shake
Lunch – Chicken salad and pitta bread
Mid-Afternoon – Protein shake and fruit
Dinner – Meat/Salad/small amount of rice/pasta
Pre-Bed – Sugar free jelly and protein shake.Im quite interested to hormonal manipulation through diet too – note the lack of carbs post training for HGH release. There are also other things I do, but they will remain a secret. Note also that is a very low calorie diet (im talking sub 2000), so it isnt for everyone, and most certainly isnt for the comp phase. I also supplement heavily with a lot of vitamin/mineral supplements, well over the RDA for most of them.
Thats a general guideline, I could talk for hours about diet – any specific questions I am happy to help, but remember I am not a qualified nutritionist (but I have seen some very good ones, and done plenty of research).
-I think you mean glucagon not glycogen.
-Ingesting protein with carbs actually causes a greater insulin response.
-The whole insulin focus is, IMO, misguided when it comes to weight loss. You are looking for a negative net storage of fat. Carbs (via insulin) will generally effect the breakdown half of the equation whereas dietary fat (via ASP) will generally effect the storage half of the equation. Ultimately you need to create a caloric deficit and, in practice, it probably doesn’t matter a whole lot if you are cutting back on some fats or some carbs.
-I’m unaware of any information indicating short term hormonal spikes (such as HGH following certain workouts) have any significant causal relationship with physical gains. Do you have any literature of that sort?
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Participant
[quote author="Owen" date="1272582360"]very interesting post.
whats the reasoning behind no carbs post training? i thought that was one of the most agreed upon recovery strategies.
Also i think it would be really interesting if you had recollection of what you use to eat when you first ran that 10.22 a few years ago and how you would say your body has changed since then?
I am guessing you are heavier now than you were because of muscle mass but do you have any idea what your body fat was like?
I do agree that carbs need to be limited to lose weight. My particular approach is to limit carbs pre training and have them only afterwards for recvory reasons. Especially sugar which should be limited at all times except post exercise.
No carbs post training might increase HGH secretion post training, which is useful. Also, how much glycogen do you think is depleted post-sprinting and lifting? Probably not a huge amount. Im not saying carbs arent important here, they are, an in season I would use them immediately post training, but if you are trying to loose weight, here is a good time to cut carbs.[/quote]
Wouldn’t that be a poor time to cut carbs considering that muscle cell insulin sensitivity is raised acutely following exercise? -
Participant
I do mean glucagon, your right. I have been told by 2+ nutritionists regarding the HGH secretion, and also read stuff on it, but I dont have any papers on my laptop. I dont think it would be a poor time to cut carbs – insulin sensitivity is raised post exercise for quite a while isnt it? And as I keep saying, what is the real immediate metabolic cost of sprint training? Its fairly low I am sure. And doesnt CHO depletion lead to greater use of fat for fuel? Regarding the insulin sensitivity – obviously you want to keep this high to get nutrients such as creatine/AAs into the muscle, but most protein shakes contain chromium, which also keeps the insulin levels high(er) for longer to allow this. Im not talking about no carbs post training per se, Im talking about waiting a while, say 1 hour.
Obviously, everyone has different thoughts on nutrition – these are mine!
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Participant
I do mean glucagon, your right. I have been told by 2+ nutritionists regarding the HGH secretion, and also read stuff on it, but I dont have any papers on my laptop. I dont think it would be a poor time to cut carbs – insulin sensitivity is raised post exercise for quite a while isnt it? And as I keep saying, what is the real immediate metabolic cost of sprint training? Its fairly low I am sure. And doesnt CHO depletion lead to greater use of fat for fuel? Regarding the insulin sensitivity – obviously you want to keep this high to get nutrients such as creatine/AAs into the muscle, but most protein shakes contain chromium, which also keeps the insulin levels high(er) for longer to allow this. Im not talking about no carbs post training per se, Im talking about waiting a while, say 1 hour.
I’m aware that HGH can rise in response to training- not debating that. I’m saying that I am unaware of any literature that indicates it is of any significance.
Regarding increased lipolysis by limiting carbohydrates- yea thats true. But if you are replacing those calories from carbohydrates with calories from fat then you are getting more fat storage than you would have with the carbs and the outcome will be roughly the same. If you aren’t replacing those calories then you are merely cutting calories, not getting some different outcome due to macronutrient mediated hormonal manipulation.
Obviously, everyone has different thoughts on nutrition – these are mine!
Different thoughts are great, so long as they are supported by the available information.
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Participant
Its late and I want to go to bed, so one quick study that I just found on google:
Its only an abstract, but talks about hormonal manipulation through macronutriet changes. Also mentions high CHO diets have lower HGH. Only an abstract and not all that relevant, but the first study I found on google.
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Participant[quote author="speedfreak1" date="1272505582"]Scales will never give you an accurate body fat reading – ignore them. 10 Ibs of muscle since easter also seems unlikely – its likely to also be fat. Or it could just be a heavy day – were you overly hydrated, or eaten alot the day prior/that day?
In terms of diet, I could write a whole post on how to loose weight, if you need/want it?
It was quite a heavy day, i pig out quite alot when i play my 360. Way too many carbs and milkshakes and i just bought 10 games….. I was about 75kg before easter, went up to 80 last week, today i am 78 and am starving! I am jumping in 2 days and was thinking of sitting in the sauna for ages and not drinking much over the next 48 hours, bad idea?
I think we would all appreciate a post on how to lose weight from you.
This is important to me because my added weight has had me feel more powerful but slightly slower and have longer strides now and cannot adjust my run up to it (LJ) – i have fouled out 2 weeks in a row now. I cannot think of any other reason but the weight gain/more str.[/quote]
Weight gain has nothing to do with your ability to steer…
you foul because of other reasons i’m positive…
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Participant
There is a video by Jon Hinds personal trainer, who is 46 now and has experience with different diets. Now he eats and recommends plant-based diet. https://www.nutrientrich.com/blog/
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Participant
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Participant
When I ran 10.22, my body fat was around 14%. I ate fairly high carb, as I thought this was good, and probably low protein.
I hope you don’t mind me asking this but do you feel that your change in diet since then has been a significant factor in your improved times or could it just be said that it is a natural training progression?
I only ask because I am very suprised by how low your calorific intake is given your training. I noticed that you also mentioned feeling tired due to low carbs so you take a caffeine/stimulants for energy, do you think that this may inhinbit the volume of work you can do in training given the short lived nature of most stimulants, and for short sprinter like yourself do you think an increase in volume has its benefits?
Thanks
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Participant
[quote author="speedfreak1" date="1272590421"]
When I ran 10.22, my body fat was around 14%. I ate fairly high carb, as I thought this was good, and probably low protein.
I hope you don’t mind me asking this but do you feel that your change in diet since then has been a significant factor in your improved times or could it just be said that it is a natural training progression?
I only ask because I am very suprised by how low your calorific intake is given your training. I noticed that you also mentioned feeling tired due to low carbs so you take a caffeine/stimulants for energy, do you think that this may inhinbit the volume of work you can do in training given the short lived nature of most stimulants, and for short sprinter like yourself do you think an increase in volume has its benefits?
Thanks[/quote]
That’s fine, I understand what you are saying. I don’t think my improvements since my 10.22 are due to body comp changes. I think its probably important to be below 10 percent body fat, as you have to carry the weight around. Unfortunately, I put on weight very easily, hence the low cal diet. In and around comps, I don’t restrict anywhere near as much. I don’t think my diet negatively impacts my training all that much, I’m never too tired that I can’t complete my sessions, and they are normally to a good standard. If I feel too tired, I go for higher carbs, or carb cycle. Its worth pointing out that I have formulated my diet with professional advice, so hopefully it is right for me!
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Participant
[quote author="bales" date="1272632992"][quote author="speedfreak1" date="1272590421"]
When I ran 10.22, my body fat was around 14%. I ate fairly high carb, as I thought this was good, and probably low protein.
I hope you don’t mind me asking this but do you feel that your change in diet since then has been a significant factor in your improved times or could it just be said that it is a natural training progression?
I only ask because I am very suprised by how low your calorific intake is given your training. I noticed that you also mentioned feeling tired due to low carbs so you take a caffeine/stimulants for energy, do you think that this may inhinbit the volume of work you can do in training given the short lived nature of most stimulants, and for short sprinter like yourself do you think an increase in volume has its benefits?
Thanks[/quote]
That’s fine, I understand what you are saying. I don’t think my improvements since my 10.22 are due to body comp changes. I think its probably important to be below 10 percent body fat, as you have to carry the weight around. Unfortunately, I put on weight very easily, hence the low cal diet. In and around comps, I don’t restrict anywhere near as much. I don’t think my diet negatively impacts my training all that much, I’m never too tired that I can’t complete my sessions, and they are normally to a good standard. If I feel too tired, I go for higher carbs, or carb cycle. Its worth pointing out that I have formulated my diet with professional advice, so hopefully it is right for me![/quote]
Thanks for the reply, I always find it interesting how much depth people go into regarding diets nowadays.
I guess it also goes to show how much genetics plays a part, some people really are more pre-disposed to putting on weight which makes the basic calories in = calories out a bit more complex than just saying do more cardio etc etc…
I have always been jealous of one of my friends who isn’t an athlete (but could be a very good one if he wanted) but hits the gym pretty seriously. He eats like a horse and doesn’t do any cardio but has the physique of a body builder without an ounce of fat on him – its unbelievable really. His mum and sister are both identical in that respect….its all in the genes…allegedly!
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Participant
[quote author="speedfreak1" date="1272592693"]I do mean glucagon, your right. I have been told by 2+ nutritionists regarding the HGH secretion, and also read stuff on it, but I dont have any papers on my laptop. I dont think it would be a poor time to cut carbs – insulin sensitivity is raised post exercise for quite a while isnt it? And as I keep saying, what is the real immediate metabolic cost of sprint training? Its fairly low I am sure. And doesnt CHO depletion lead to greater use of fat for fuel? Regarding the insulin sensitivity – obviously you want to keep this high to get nutrients such as creatine/AAs into the muscle, but most protein shakes contain chromium, which also keeps the insulin levels high(er) for longer to allow this. Im not talking about no carbs post training per se, Im talking about waiting a while, say 1 hour.
I’m aware that HGH can rise in response to training- not debating that. I’m saying that I am unaware of any literature that indicates it is of any significance.
Regarding increased lipolysis by limiting carbohydrates- yea thats true. But if you are replacing those calories from carbohydrates with calories from fat then you are getting more fat storage than you would have with the carbs and the outcome will be roughly the same. If you aren’t replacing those calories then you are merely cutting calories, not getting some different outcome due to macronutrient mediated hormonal manipulation.
Obviously, everyone has different thoughts on nutrition – these are mine!
Different thoughts are great, so long as they are supported by the available information.[/quote]
Perhaps I didnt explain my point correctly – I am not saying I carb restrict post exercise, I am saying I dont eat directly post exercise. So it isnt macronutrient mediated hormonal manipulation, as I am not manipulating my macronutrients – I just have a protein shake, as I would normally have, then eat about 90 mins later.
Some “information available” on not having carbs post training:
https://forum.myprotein.co.uk/advanced-discussion/8534-against-glycogen-repletion.html
Michael Eades in his book protein power discusses how CHO attenuates HGH release post-exercise
Its clearly up for debate, with the book Exercise and Sport Science (McMurray 2000) stating: e influence of dietary composition on hGH exercise response is controversial, however,
as one study found that high-fat diets increase the hGH response more than high-carbohydrate
diets (71), whereas another study found just the opposite (52)https://forum.myprotein.co.uk/advanced-discussion/17757-more-cortisol-fat-muscle-metabolism.html (this is more about cortisol, and why elevation post exercise may be good – CHO reduces cortisol levels doesnt it?)
First point in this “article” : https://www.tmuscle.com/readArticle.do?id=659666
With regards to muscle protein synthesis: https://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/293/3/E833
https://www.ebook-shop.org/7xe52798ebooks1/30,000+ Ebooks/E Books/(ebook – PDF – Health) Bodybuilding Nutrition.pdf
https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/md92.htm
This study actually does state that carb, but not energy, restriction post exercise favorably affects hormone profile: https://scholarworks.umass.edu/theses/36/
These are just from a quick google search. I would hope the two world class nutritionists, who have worked with world champions in a variety of sports, and who read journals all day long, will know more than me, hence why I take their advice. Like I say, there are many different ideas, not every one agrees with them all, but I have found that not eating directly after exercise has played a small part, along with many other nutritional interventions, in me reducing my skin folds by over 33% from October to January, with a concurrent increase in limb girths, indicating an increase in muscle.
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Participant
I’m sorry but I don’t see any of that even addressing the relevance of the HGH response following training. Am I missing it somewhere?
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Participant
HGH response to exercise –> minimal significance on its own, let alone enough to change DIET for that.
I mean, what is the net anabolic effect? Cho+Pro has regularly been shown to outperform pro and cho alone, even if there is less “HGH” released. The HGH is released only briefly in, what I think most of us would consider, insignificant amounts.
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Participant
There is a video by Jon Hinds personal trainer, who is 46 now and has experience with different diets. Now he eats and recommends plant-based diet. https://www.nutrientrich.com/blog/
DId you say you eat 90% raw foods? That’s awesome, I am personally on 100% raw diet, experimenting with my results…it’s good to meet someone like this, pm me the kind of stuff you eat or something, I’m curious, and that link is great thanks for putting that up
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Participant
I don’t know who exactly to reply to but I will reply to a few points:
Calories in minus calories out:
From my experience, restricting carbs post workout can result in me overconsuming fats, because they just are not as satiating as carbs post workout. Unless in KETOSIS. If in ketosis, I can jsut eat protein, and some MCT from shredded coconut or coconut flakes, and I feel great. THen two hours or one hour later I’ll eat more fats.
I tried to find the study, but I could not, but it showed that eating carbohydrates post workout kept fat oxidation up, as glucose is conserved, since the body wants to hold on the glycogen, as soon as I find that again, I will post. But still, the men in the study were not in ketosis, in ketosis the picture is different. Restricting carbs post workout can be a shock if not in ketosis, and stressful, which is why cortisol lowers form carbs.
I’ve had great gains on a Cyclic Ketogenic Diet, lasting two weeks, and I do that every now and then. Also working out soon after eating fats can help you comsume just protein post workout instead of gorging on food.
Oh and another study I cannot find but will post compares protein synthesis from protein alone, versus protein + carbs, and it seems as if protein alone does wonders for protein synthesis. COmsume some fast digesting fats and you should feel fine.
One more thing, there is a point in low carbing where is gets harder to restrict calories, since carbs regulate metabolism very well. At that point, I carb up, and the next day i can eat very little, and do fine on no carbs. So getting the carbs in periodically does wonders for Leptin, your thyroid, and fat burning, which is why Cyclic Ketogenesis is really awesome.
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Participant
I don’t know who exactly to reply to but I will reply to a few points:
Calories in minus calories out:
From my experience, restricting carbs post workout can result in me overconsuming fats, because they just are not as satiating as carbs post workout. Unless in KETOSIS. If in ketosis, I can jsut eat protein, and some MCT from shredded coconut or coconut flakes, and I feel great. THen two hours or one hour later I’ll eat more fats.
I tried to find the study, but I could not, but it showed that eating carbohydrates post workout kept fat oxidation up, as glucose is conserved, since the body wants to hold on the glycogen, as soon as I find that again, I will post. But still, the men in the study were not in ketosis, in ketosis the picture is different. Restricting carbs post workout can be a shock if not in ketosis, and stressful, which is why cortisol lowers form carbs.
I’ve had great gains on a Cyclic Ketogenic Diet, lasting two weeks, and I do that every now and then. Also working out soon after eating fats can help you comsume just protein post workout instead of gorging on food.
Oh and another study I cannot find but will post compares protein synthesis from protein alone, versus protein + carbs, and it seems as if protein alone does wonders for protein synthesis. COmsume some fast digesting fats and you should feel fine.
One more thing, there is a point in low carbing where is gets harder to restrict calories, since carbs regulate metabolism very well. At that point, I carb up, and the next day i can eat very little, and do fine on no carbs. So getting the carbs in periodically does wonders for Leptin, your thyroid, and fat burning, which is why Cyclic Ketogenesis is really awesome.
I don’t mean this is a derogatory manner but why do you bother with a diet like this, are you an elite athlete?
Does this minute attention to detail of the processes you body goes through when consuming food actually make a difference to performance over a conventional healthy balanced diet?
Do the Bolts or Gays or Powells of this world eat like this? I can’t myself understand the purpose of restricting yourself so much unless there is some considerable benefit of doing so – is it just a similar type thing to obsessing about the weight of your spikes or the benefit of powerweb clothing or does it genuinely make a difference?
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Participant
Well my goals are to reach 6% body fat as well as improve my vertical jump and sprint speed.
I get asked this question a fair amount; and the reason people ask it is because it would be quite overwhelming for many to do this. But I like to experiment and see what will or will not work for me and my goals. And it’s a lot of fun. Many athletes have shitty diets, and run into problems later in life. So it’s quite prudent to monitor what you are eating, and also it’s willpower as well to try to avoid things sucha s coffee, peanut butter, which I just quit recently however. It’s fun learning
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