Posted In: Strength & Conditioning
I notice whenever I throw in isolation exercises (leg curls, gms, skullcrushers, curls, lateral raises, forearms etc.) my bodyweight seems to go up about 5-15lbs. and im not even a big guy (5’9 135-160).
I enjoy looking more buff but anyone think it would affect performance?
… How is your bodyweight fluctuating that much? Over what period of time?
What events do you do?
and to help answer you’re question I’m 5’11”, 190 lbs and I’m the fastest I’ve ever been (started sprinting at 5’10” 135 lbs, used to hover around 170).
… How is your bodyweight fluctuating that much? Over what period of time?
What events do you do?and to help answer you’re question I’m 5’11”, 190 lbs and I’m the fastest I’ve ever been (started sprinting at 5’10” 135 lbs, used to hover around 170).
Bulking and dieting. I only drop under 140 when I have very lower bf tho like 7% or less, but usually compete and maintain in the mid 140s. I actually bulked to 188 at my highest but got pretty fat. I do 100m.
so u got to 170 from eating more or b/c you started lifting? then u got to 190 from 170 from eating more or b/c you started lifting?
oh i see youre in high school so the 135 mustve been before reaching full maturity
Lifting weights doesnt make you big and wont put on lbs but eating will.
Lift all you want, control calories and stop doing useless shit like curls/forearms.
Fluctuating from 135-160 is huge, get off the gear.
Lifting weights doesnt make you big and wont put on lbs but eating will.
yea guess thats why I put on 5-10 lbs eating the same amount of food and having same bf%
stop doing useless shit like curls/forearms.
1. its not useless if it aids your sex life
2. strong anecdotal support for conclusions
Fluctuating from 135-160 is huge, get off the gear.
1. yea guess Im on gear @ 145
2. you jealous you dont have the discipline to bulk and diet properly for optimal body composition adjustments brah?
1st point, you dont take good advice. Im not going to argue with the food part, your mistaken so do some research.
2nd point, it is useless. I can guarantee my grip is stronger than yours without me isolating my forearms and wasting training time.
3rd, the gear was a joke, but doesnt matter what you weigh, anyone can be on it. Your last point i dont understand, youll have to explain the “bulk and diet properly for optimal body composition” bit. Dont question my discipline either, brah.
Sound to be like you need the bodybuilding forums and not elitetrack forums, noob.
1st point, you dont take good advice. Im not going to argue with the food part, your mistaken so do some research.
yep guess ill go do some research on how hypertrophy leads to no increase in body mass. lawl.
2nd point, it is useless. I can guarantee my grip is stronger than yours without me isolating my forearms and wasting training time.
I throw in isos at the end of my workout after finishing up compounds nub. Before I started isolating abs I had had like 0 ab definition. now they are effin jacked.
Sound to be like you need the bodybuilding forums and not elitetrack forums, noob.
weakass excuse
When you say “my bodyweight seems to go up about 5-15lbs.”, can you tell whether your lean mass increases, or total bodyweight?
why would I gain fat by eating the same amount of food and doing the same workouts
I doubt the iso abs did much for the 6 pack. My guess is the decrease body fat did that. I haven’t done a crunch is months now and have a better 6 pack than ever because i’m lighter now with less BF.
I notice whenever I throw in isolation exercises (leg curls, gms, skullcrushers, curls, lateral raises, forearms etc.) my bodyweight seems to go up about 5-15lbs. and im not even a big guy (5’9 135-160).
I enjoy looking more buff but anyone think it would affect performance?
If you weight around 150 and you’re gaining 15lbs. in you arms, then you must look like Popeye. Ten to fifteen lbs. of lean body mass is an impressive full body gain at that weight and that doesn’t come from doing skullcushers, curls or any other arm exercise. And people with under 100 posts should refrain from calling others on this board ‘nube’.
I haven’t done a crunch is months now and have a better 6 pack than ever because i’m lighter now with less BF.
or maybe because you dropped bf and dont naturally store most of your bf around your abs. my guess is if u trained abs theyd gain more size and look bigger and more prominent with more cuts, but thats just a wild guess.
If you weight around 150 and you’re gaining 15lbs. in you arms
yea… because that actually is what I said
And people with under 100 posts should refrain from calling others on this board ‘nube’.
yea I forgot having over 100 posts on an internet forum automatically makes you a human physiology expert. sorry for interrupting the manlove circle lawls
Yeah you probably right but the risk/ reward of doing tons of flexion work is waaaay too lob sided…
Also i did not say the 100 post nube comment! lol…
What is the real harm in spending 30 mins per week on arms? Especially when it’s at the end of the workout? So many sprinters gain tons of mass in their upper body and get faster… whats so bad about it? I mean… if your RELATIVE lower body strength maintains or even better… increases… then you could even be better in the strength department?
Why don’t you just run and check for yourself?
I stuck around 170 lbs for three years before hitting the weights hard this year (putting me at 190) and I feel the extra strength is really helping my running.
Ill have to ask you to post some training stats before i can take you seriously. You seem to have alot of answers. For all i know your just another regular gym guy that does bicep curls at the squat rack, but likes to run now and again.
You can do all the hyperthrophy sets in the world, unless you eat big, you wont get big (example is them guys you seen at the gym for the last 3 years, looks like they train very hard to failure every time, 10-15 reps, but hasnt changed in size). Snoop around on the bodybuilding forum site. Not gonna find anywhere better for nutrition.
I agree with Nick on the abs. Its all about bodyfat, i havent done more than 4 weeks worth of core work ever and my abs and obliques are very visable. Also never done a curl or isolated arms but they still look pretty good and solid.
This is very quickly becoming my favourite thread in any internet forum, anywhere, ever.
Why don’t you just run and check for yourself?
yea looks like im gonna have to do everything myself as usual
Ill have to ask you to post some training stats before i can take you seriously. You seem to have alot of answers. For all i know your just another regular gym guy that does bicep curls at the squat rack, but likes to run now and again.
yea we should all post our e-stats and transform this thread into a manlove circle instead of anything productive or pertinent. After all it is the interwebz and I am dealing with 100+ post Broscience PhD’s.
You can do all the hyperthrophy sets in the world, unless you eat big, you wont get big (example is them guys you seen at the gym for the last 3 years, looks like they train very hard to failure every time, 10-15 reps, but hasnt changed in size).
Yea they already maxed out their bicep and chest mass at that weight no doubt… I havent son
This is very quickly becoming my favourite thread in any internet forum, anywhere, ever.
Happiness does not lie in happiness, but in it’s attainment
Stop talking crap. This maybe the web but no one is hiding here, people know other people on these forums. You train yourself no? Lets see how far your knowledge has taken you. Height, already know weight, lifts, and im not talking about your reverse grip hang clean (curl to you), sprints, jump tests. Lets have em.
I gave some simple advice and you dismissed it and to be honest i think your a noob who should take the advice of someone who is probably superior. But i could be wrong. I know i sound like an asshole, but i guess i am, or maybe i find it fun to mess with you.
He asked a simple question no need to pile on the guy. Do some curls for goodness sake. Mo had huge arms, Nesta Carter has huge arms they both ran 9.7
As long as he’s not fat like MLF big deal.
noobtime
Stop talking crap.
So I guess youre still mad?
I gave some simple advice and you dismissed it and to be honest i think your a noob who should take the advice of someone who is probably superior. But i could be wrong. I know i sound like an asshole, but i guess i am, or maybe i find it fun to mess with you.
so does that mean youre not mad anymore?
He asked a simple question
internet + broscience + logic= error syntax
This is no fun anymore. Curl your way to a 9.7.
Please educate yourself sir and stop dodging my question of how good physically are you. We cant be letting any old noob giving advice here can we?
Ill start with some stats so you might feel more confortable posting yours.
Height – 6’0. Weight – 74-76kg
clean, jerk, bench, squat, deadlift, – all stonger than you
20, 40, 60m test – faster than you
Any standing jumps – Alot further than you
Overhead throws – further than you.
Ahh, its fun again.
… so still mad bout being out of shape I guess
Patrick,
Do you have any before and after pics that document what it looks like when a 135lb. individual adds 15lbs. of pure muscle to his arms? I think they should be amazing pics since the average pair of arms for the average size man is 15lbs. You are between the 5th and 10th percentile in terms of weight, so I would think your arms probably weigh around 10-12lbs. and that includes bone. So if we say 10lbs. of muscle mass in your arms at 135, then we’re talking about increasing the muscle mass of your arms by 250% without increasing torso muscle mass. Incredible. Please post the pics.
Before:
After:
Why is isolation work frowned upon so much? There isn’t any benefit in them, but… what really is any downside to doing it? I don’t see any, unless someone’s spending too much time doing isolation work where their workouts are being dominated by isolation work, and that time could be better used in place of compound exercises.
Other than that… why not curl?
Why is isolation work frowned upon so much? There isn’t any benefit in them, but… what really is any downside to doing it? I don’t see any, unless someone’s spending too much time doing isolation work where their workouts are being dominated by isolation work, and that time could be better used in place of compound exercises.
Other than that… why not curl?
I think most track athletes have a limited amount of time and limited amount of physical resources. Isolating your biceps with curls adds absolutely no benefit to your ultimate goal…to run fast. Most on this forum believe you should spend the least amount of time and physcial resources needed to best prepare yourself. If you’re doing more, or using exercises less suited to you’re overal goal, you’re wasting resouces that could be better spent with more productive training.
star61 i 100% agree.
I also agree, unless it is pre gpp or very early gpp and only upperbody. Even then I prefer multijoint lifts though. Lowerbody isolation lifts are completely useles IMO for athletes.
it gets balanced out by less resource expenditure for pulling in poon tho
it gets balanced out by less resource expenditure for pulling in poon tho
Just gonna throw it out there everybody…
And that’s all I have to say…
[quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1288399737"]Why is isolation work frowned upon so much? There isn’t any benefit in them, but… what really is any downside to doing it? I don’t see any, unless someone’s spending too much time doing isolation work where their workouts are being dominated by isolation work, and that time could be better used in place of compound exercises.
Other than that… why not curl?
I think most track athletes have a limited amount of time and limited amount of physical resources. Isolating your biceps with curls adds absolutely no benefit to your ultimate goal…to run fast. Most on this forum believe you should spend the least amount of time and physcial resources needed to best prepare yourself. If you’re doing more, or using exercises less suited to you’re overal goal, you’re wasting resouces that could be better spent with more productive training.[/quote]
If you’re already done your track workout and now in the gym and finished your compound lifts. What “resources” are you really wasting by doing some iso work though? You can make a 70 minute workout into a 90 min workout, whats the difference for the end result?
[quote author="star61" date="1288400987"][quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1288399737"]Why is isolation work frowned upon so much? There isn’t any benefit in them, but… what really is any downside to doing it? I don’t see any, unless someone’s spending too much time doing isolation work where their workouts are being dominated by isolation work, and that time could be better used in place of compound exercises.
Other than that… why not curl?
I think most track athletes have a limited amount of time and limited amount of physical resources. Isolating your biceps with curls adds absolutely no benefit to your ultimate goal…to run fast. Most on this forum believe you should spend the least amount of time and physcial resources needed to best prepare yourself. If you’re doing more, or using exercises less suited to you’re overal goal, you’re wasting resouces that could be better spent with more productive training.[/quote]
If you’re already done your track workout and now in the gym and finished your compound lifts. What “resources” are you really wasting by doing some iso work though? You can make a 70 minute workout into a 90 min workout, whats the difference for the end result?[/quote]
20 minutes extra training would equal extra fatigue?
And then you would have extra mass to carry down the track?
Although, in Patrick Bateman’s (I really hope that is his real name!) defense, the poon do dig the bi’s.
[quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1288419834"][quote author="star61" date="1288400987"][quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1288399737"]Why is isolation work frowned upon so much? There isn’t any benefit in them, but… what really is any downside to doing it? I don’t see any, unless someone’s spending too much time doing isolation work where their workouts are being dominated by isolation work, and that time could be better used in place of compound exercises.
Other than that… why not curl?
I think most track athletes have a limited amount of time and limited amount of physical resources. Isolating your biceps with curls adds absolutely no benefit to your ultimate goal…to run fast. Most on this forum believe you should spend the least amount of time and physcial resources needed to best prepare yourself. If you’re doing more, or using exercises less suited to you’re overal goal, you’re wasting resouces that could be better spent with more productive training.[/quote]
If you’re already done your track workout and now in the gym and finished your compound lifts. What “resources” are you really wasting by doing some iso work though? You can make a 70 minute workout into a 90 min workout, whats the difference for the end result?[/quote]
20 minutes extra training would equal extra fatigue?
And then you would have extra mass to carry down the track?
Although, in Patrick Bateman’s (I really hope that is his real name!) defense, the poon do dig the bi’s.[/quote]
It would ya, but im talking about GPP time. Right now, I can do a ton of workouts without a problem and I don’t have to worry about any races.
With the extra mass, what if your lower body relative strength actually went up? That’s been the case with me, I can squat more relative to my body weight now that I’m 10 pounds heavier.
Was going to write a big post, but i dont think youll get it. The jist of it is the mental fatigue of training and how you should save it for things that will benefit you only.
But hey, if you need to get bigger biceps to compensate for other things…..i cant understand that.
(Ba-ty-man??)
If you’re already done your track workout and now in the gym and finished your compound lifts. What “resources” are you really wasting by doing some iso work though? You can make a 70 minute workout into a 90 min workout, whats the difference for the end result?
Something that should be included in your ‘resource toolkit’ is your ability to recover. You should work to your limit, being sure not to overtrain, but you should leave nothing on the table. If you have resources that allow you to work out for an additional 20 minutes per workout without effecting recovery, you are leaving something on the table. If your primary workout is performed at the maximum possible effort, then adding additional work will adversely affect your training.
As Josh mentioned, you can get away with much more during GPP, for several reasons. Do your mirror work then, and phase it out as you begin working more specific means during SPP. By the way, we have a name for those guys that do all the goofy front facing iso’s…Rics. Refelction Inspection Crew. We call them all Ric. They always tell us their names, but we call them all Rick anyway. Every rep done facing the mirror. Walk to the fountain, bump into other lifters all the way there looking in the mirror. Front side looks OK, back and posterior chain look completely undeveloped.
Don’t be a Ric.
[quote author="speedfreak1" date="1288464371"][quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1288419834"][quote author="star61" date="1288400987"][quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1288399737"]Why is isolation work frowned upon so much? There isn’t any benefit in them, but… what really is any downside to doing it? I don’t see any, unless someone’s spending too much time doing isolation work where their workouts are being dominated by isolation work, and that time could be better used in place of compound exercises.
Other than that… why not curl?
I think most track athletes have a limited amount of time and limited amount of physical resources. Isolating your biceps with curls adds absolutely no benefit to your ultimate goal…to run fast. Most on this forum believe you should spend the least amount of time and physcial resources needed to best prepare yourself. If you’re doing more, or using exercises less suited to you’re overal goal, you’re wasting resouces that could be better spent with more productive training.[/quote]
If you’re already done your track workout and now in the gym and finished your compound lifts. What “resources” are you really wasting by doing some iso work though? You can make a 70 minute workout into a 90 min workout, whats the difference for the end result?[/quote]
20 minutes extra training would equal extra fatigue?
And then you would have extra mass to carry down the track?
Although, in Patrick Bateman’s (I really hope that is his real name!) defense, the poon do dig the bi’s.[/quote]
It would ya, but im talking about GPP time. Right now, I can do a ton of workouts without a problem and I don’t have to worry about any races.
With the extra mass, what if your lower body relative strength actually went up? That’s been the case with me, I can squat more relative to my body weight now that I’m 10 pounds heavier.[/quote]
But bicep curls
a) Dont increase your lower body relative strength
b) Dont improve your squat.
[quote author="trackspeedboy" date="1288419834"]
If you’re already done your track workout and now in the gym and finished your compound lifts. What “resources” are you really wasting by doing some iso work though? You can make a 70 minute workout into a 90 min workout, whats the difference for the end result?
Something that should be included in your ‘resource toolkit’ is your ability to recover. You should work to your limit, being sure not to overtrain, but you should leave nothing on the table. If you have resources that allow you to work out for an additional 20 minutes per workout without effecting recovery, you are leaving something on the table. If your primary workout is performed at the maximum possible effort, then adding additional work will adversely affect your training.
As Josh mentioned, you can get away with much more during GPP, for several reasons. Do your mirror work then, and phase it out as you begin working more specific means during SPP. By the way, we have a name for those guys that do all the goofy front facing iso’s…Rics. Refelction Inspection Crew. We call them all Ric. They always tell us their names, but we call them all Rick anyway. Every rep done facing the mirror. Walk to the fountain, bump into other lifters all the way there looking in the mirror. Front side looks OK, back and posterior chain look completely undeveloped.
Don’t be a Ric.[/quote]
That’s what im doing anyway, GPP time now.
If anything my back/posterior is better developed than my front… lol…
I’ve been wondering how much upperbody strength can contribute to sprinting, so I’m going to ask a question here. Does anyone have any real evidence of the force produced by sprinters in the arms/deltoids, pecs, etc? Because I am really debating whether or not I should waste my time working out my rear deltoids.
If we think about it like this it makes sense. If the biceps + deltoids + pecs (arm flexion) along with the synergistic arm extension (rear delts, the lats, triceps, traps, other back muscles) contributes 15% to overall ground reaction force (GRF) in athlete A, and through training our legs only, we increase our ground reaction force by 100% let’s say, then the upper body’s role decreases to 7.5%. If we then decide to restore the original ratio without decreasing leg strength, we end up with increased GRF. If that is how it works, then isolating the upperbody to improve strength should make you faster.
I don’t think there is any evidence about force production in upperbody during sprinting. I just know one thing, that sprinting is not rowing or skiing (I doubt that even for these sports exercise like biceps curl contribute to overall performance). A beginner who does just few pushups, few dips and 0 pullups might need to think about increasing strength in upperbody through general strength exercises. If you are not beginner in overall strength like I showed then trying to increase strength in upperbody through isolation exercises does nothing. If someone believes that it helps recruit additional muscle fibres in leg muscles and increase RFD then it’s a good idea. Are we sprinting using special gimmick when our arms are attached with elastic tubes?
All muscles, those of the arm included, can generate force to assist in forward movement. All muscles will also weigh down the body. For prime movers like gluteus and hamstrings, force improvement by hypertrophy will – by far – make up for the increased body mass.
Muscles of the arm are of course not prime movers, but as Star61 notes, they have also very little impact on total body mass. Due to their distance to the body’s center of mass and due to the free 3-axis movements of the shoulder joint, they however have a unique ability to influence the position of the center of mass and consequently assist in balance and to adjust/steer the force direction of the prime movers during, for example, sprinting. More mass on the arms, while negligible regarding body mass, will improve this ability.
Everyone has witnessed very fast sprinters with undersized upper body and arms. At the world class level, Lemaitre is a good example. His prime movers seem to be quite well developed though and he seems to compensate the lack of arm mass with vigorous arm movements. Still I think he will improve by adding some mass to his arms (and also to the prime movers of the arms for the strength to handle that mass).
And that’s all I have to say…
lol have u actually read the thread? I am the one whose thread was victimized by trolls not the other way around
I’ve been wondering how much upperbody strength can contribute to sprinting, so I’m going to ask a question here. Does anyone have any real evidence of the force produced by sprinters in the arms/deltoids, pecs, etc? Because I am really debating whether or not I should waste my time working out my rear deltoids.
you doubting the strong use of anecdotal support in here?
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_202gSMm4k58/Se8s8waKyVI/AAAAAAAAA6U/8W9jQMWE4vY/s320/broscience.gif
All muscles, those of the arm included, can generate force to assist in forward movement. All muscles will also weigh down the body. For prime movers like gluteus and hamstrings, force improvement by hypertrophy will – by far – make up for the increased body mass.
Muscles of the arm are of course not prime movers, but as Star61 notes, they have also very little impact on total body mass. Due to their distance to the body’s center of mass and due to the free 3-axis movements of the shoulder joint, they however have a unique ability to influence the position of the center of mass and consequently assist in balance and to adjust/steer the force direction of the prime movers during, for example, sprinting. More mass on the arms, while negligible regarding body mass, will improve this ability.
Everyone has witnessed very fast sprinters with undersized upper body and arms. At the world class level, Lemaitre is a good example. His prime movers seem to be quite well developed though and he seems to compensate the lack of arm mass with vigorous arm movements. Still I think he will improve by adding some mass to his arms (and also to the prime movers[i] of the arms[/i] for the strength to handle that mass).
That sounds like a great summary. It would seem then that this could apply to other events like the jumps? If anyone believes in the Squat Dr’s 50 inch vertical then he is living testimony that uppe body mass does not inhibit jump performance
Dr squat lies. He claims all sorts of bs to sell himself. Running down the runway and taking off with big arms is different from a standing jump anyway. If anything i bet bigger arms would help a standing jump, creating some momentom.
His video on youtube looks legit, 1 step drop VJ at least 45”
courtesy link?
Forget this guy, there is already a thread on him here from last year. Hes got a decent vert anyway, but not a 46.5 standing like he claims. His claims – 6.6 60m sprint, 3.50m broad jump? 180kg+ power clean, 280+ full squat, 245kg+ front squat. Probably claims he can fly….
This is his excuse for not posting any videos of his achievements, “If i ever post a video which i get further and further from doing, i will let you know. but you have to know, the interent mentality is no matter what you show, they will find something wrong with it.” Smells like a fraud.
He makes money from training programs, enough said.
Yesterday i clean and jerked 195kg@75kg and i dont even do it as my sport, im not going to post a video though so your gonna have to take my word for it. And why would i want to enter competitons and win everything? That wouldnt make sence.
O thought u meant Dr. Squat Hatfield had a 45 inch vert luls
Forget this guy, there is already a thread on him here from last year. Hes got a decent vert anyway, but not a 46.5 standing like he claims. His claims – 6.6 60m sprint, 3.50m broad jump? 180kg+ power clean, 280+ full squat, 245kg+ front squat. Probably claims he can fly….
This is his excuse for not posting any videos of his achievements, “If i ever post a video which i get further and further from doing, i will let you know. but you have to know, the interent mentality is no matter what you show, they will find something wrong with it.” Smells like a fraud.
He makes money from training programs, enough said.
Yesterday i clean and jerked 195kg@75kg and i dont even do it as my sport, im not going to post a video though so your gonna have to take my word for it. And why would i want to enter competitons and win everything? That wouldnt make sence.
