does anyone have an opinion on the westside debate. ive read alot of articles by strength coaches who advocate it and those who dont. its starting to look like its all just a matter of personal preference in the weight room.
westside vs. olys
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Participant
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KeymasterThis has been discussed at length on this forum. The concensus (at least mine 😀 ) seems to be that WSBB setups are best suited for powerlifting and require extensive modification to make it best suited for sports requiring more than just high force outputs (i.e. those that require speed, power, endurance, etc.).
Here is one of the more recent threads on this topic. Do a search on “westside” if you’re interested in reading more.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Member
Westside is an idea of training know as conjugated periodization. Conjugated periodization means that a variety of special strengths are trained within the same week; namely max strength, speed-strength, strength-speed, and ballistic strength. Olympic lifts fit well within the Westside template of strength-speed and speed-strength, but really fail to train max strength effectively. Max strength is the base by which all other strengths are created. Eastern European countries have known this for a long time, but America as a whole has yet to figure this out. To dismiss Westside ideas because they were created for powerlifters is like dismissing plyometrics for everyone because they were originally created by Dr Verkhoshansky for jumpers.
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Keymaster
Ben-
Welcome to the board. You’ve got some nice points but I wanted to add my 2 cents.[i]Originally posted by bendragon[/i]
Westside is an idea of training know as conjugated periodization. Conjugated periodization means that a variety of special strengths are trained within the same week; namely max strength, speed-strength, strength-speed, and ballistic strength.Pretty much every track training program is a form of conjugated training (especially short-to-long programs) and when examining a track and field program, it’s important to remember that weight work comprises only one facet of a track athletes training. As such, it might very well be appropriate (though not optimal) to only use a track athlete’s weight room program to address max strength because they would likely address all other biomotor qualities (including all the various strength analogues) with sprinting, general strength, plyos, multi-throws, etc.
Olympic lifts fit well within the Westside template of strength-speed and speed-strength, but really fail to train max strength effectively. Max strength is the base by which all other strengths are created. Eastern European countries have known this for a long time, but America as a whole has yet to figure this out.
No argument on this one, but it could be argued that the OLs are closer to the power demands of most sports. So while max strength is vitally important, there is likely a point where better on the field / track performance would likely be made via explosive strength development rather than maximal strength development.
To dismiss Westside ideas because they were created for powerlifters is like dismissing plyometrics for everyone because they were originally created by Dr Verkhoshansky for jumpers.
I don’t know if you’re comment is directed at me but I never dismissed Westside ideas. In fact, I ALWAYS recommend a conjugate training method (which I’m sure you know is not WSBB’s idea anyhow). If you browse through the forums, I’m sure you’ll find I frequently post about the importance of having every track athletes training sessions (not just the weight room aspect) cover every biomotor ability (i.e. conjugated training). And as I hinted above, the weight room is only one aspect of a track athlete’s training program (unlike a powerlifters) and because of this I feel that using an unmodified WSBB weightlifting model would be less than ideal for a track athlete.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
“No argument on this one, but it could be argued that the OLs are closer to the power demands of most sports. So while max strength is vitally important, there is likely a point where better on the field / track performance would likely be made via explosive strength development rather than maximal strength development.”
Mike, I just had one contention to your post – namely, that any exercise can be performed in an explosive manner, not simply OLs.
OLs have one distinct advantage — they are truely compensatory accelerative. That means that in the outer range of the movement, you still have to accelerate both you and the bar ( the top of the second pull and the start of the drop).
Being versed in both styles of lifting I find that when i concentrate on OLs, the stimulus to sprinting is too similar, and one or the other suffers. for the very reason you advocate them seems to me the very reason I don’t gain much from them.
Also, if the weight room is as you say to develop maximal sterngth, then why OL in the first place? to gain “explosive strength?” Shouldn’t the reactive work on the track, plyos, medballs, etc., take care of that end of the force velocity curve?
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I agree that a Westside program should be modified to fit a track and field athlete. I did not mean any offense by my comments, only that I feel the people at Westside have a lot to offer the strength and conditioning world as I feel they are very open to new ideas and willing to share information. Track and field definitely requires conjugate training for all strengths and biomotor abilities, but I am not sold on Olympic lifts as being the only means for explosive (speed-strength or strength-speed) and would love to see more studies on compensatory acceleration, reflexive isometrics, and accomodating resistance.
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Keymaster
[i]Originally posted by briangoldstein[/i]
Mike, I just had one contention to your post – namely, that any exercise can be performed in an explosive manner, not simply OLs.Agreed but I think if you look at the previous discussion we were talking specifically about the development of maximal strength….which is not the same thing you are talking about here. Obviously one could do any movement fast and shift the emphasis from strength to power development but we could likewise flip the emphasis on an OL variant such that maximal strength is emphasized more than explosiveness (such as very heavy clean pulls) .
Also, if the weight room is as you say to develop maximal sterngth, then why OL in the first place? to gain “explosive strength?” Shouldn’t the reactive work on the track, plyos, medballs, etc., take care of that end of the force velocity curve?
I think we have a miscommunication and misinterpretation problem here. While I think that the weight room is perhaps the best modality for training maximal strength, I never said that it’s use has to be limited to developing maximal strength. In fact, I’ve said quite the contrary in this and other threads. Why OL you ask? Well why not? Even if they are not the best exercises to develop maximal strength (as Ben has pointed out) or explosiveness (as you have pointed out) they are still a great tool to have for developing explosiveness. Just because their are other means of training explosiveness doesn’t mean that you need to get rid of OLs. Why do we have to choose? I really don’t see it as an either or situation, why can’t we do jumps, multi-throws, AND OLs?
ELITETRACK Founder
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no, not even what I am advocating… merely trying to understand why you use them with your athletes…
As I have stated — I have used them, and will probably use them again, but if their use is redundant (given the other modalities listed), why include them? As to the either-or situation two things …
How do you cycle them with advanced athletes approaching comp and peak?
And how do you use them with very young developmental athletes? -
Participant
Great points by all!
We can build max strength using the OL lifts. Looking through my old soviet OL books they advocate using many “assistance excercises” to build max strength in the pulling movements, like doing clean and snatch pulls followed by a slow eccentric lowering, or lowering the weight with 4 isometric stops followed by the exploive concentric phase. Simmons himself even advocates doing many of these type movements to build explosive pulling strength(MILO, vol 3 no.1 regaining top form part2).
With that bieng said why can’t a T and F athlete use many of these type of exercises to build both max and explosive strength and rotate them(much like the westsiders) when they fail to produce a positive training effect. This will give training alot more variety(which the athlete will appreciate) and develop the strength we are looking for.
Just my 2 cents!!!Coach J
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Participant
OLs are good in keeping T&F training conjugated in a controlled manner. I don???t proclaim they are the only solution, but in my mind a very good one. As I understand having a conjugated approach to your training doesn???t mean abandoning different strength attributes for gaining others, merely shifting focus and emphasis. If you???re good at OLs ??? having the ability to manage heavy loads as well as explosive loads ??? you can use them to control the emphasis and focus between max. strength and power.
Sometimes when shifting emphasis from one quality to another, the shift might bee too quick or radical, and therefore might mess up your general plan, ultimately making peaking less controlled. With OLs you have a great arsenal of tools when managing delicate quality shifts.
So while shifting focus from power to max.strenght you might want to lessen the difference between stimuli by first introducing heavier loads in the snatch or clean. And when changing from max. strength to power you might want to start out with lowering loads in the OLs making the transformation process more controlled. What you do in the weight room should reflect what you do elsewhere in training.
This is not the only use for OLs, remember Jonathan Edwards didn???t do any other lifts than clean, snatch and bench. But he also did manage 150kg in clean and 110kg in snatch so he pretty much had the whole spectrum of different strength qualities covered in them. Although I think his lifting technique could have been better.
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Participant
interesting post, Lorien… I’ve never thought of using OL (or the wt room in general) as a bleed-in mechanism for the entire meso/micro theme. this may be because i’m often “on the fly” in the wt room in that i may write 70-80% or 85-90% but if i see a kid really banging or struggling i tend to adjust up or down. i really like your idea and will probably steal it and try it out this year with some kids.
I have, however, seen it as a predictor in that things that i often see in the wt room show up on the track shortly after (e.g., timing issues getting cleaned up/better synchronization; starting strength values, rfd parameters).
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Participant
I like the way you guys think!! Here’s a question, in following with this thread of the Congugate sequence, would it be a good idea to use both max strength type lifts(clean pulls, snatch pulls) as well as more speed type lifts like the power snatch in the same micro? That way you will be working both max strength and speed at the same time, which is what the conjugate sequence is. Or do you guys think it would be better to maybe alternate Micro’s like a pendulum(i.e. like john Smith does with his throwers) having one max strength micro, then switching to a more of a speed mircro.
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I???m not sure! I think it depends on your over all routines. If you do weights three times a week (microcycle), maybe you can have one that is power related (in a max. strength period). But if you do less than three times a week it gets trickier ??? maybe then you might want to follow the John Smith style?
You can maybe also divide your microcycles into ???stimuli-related??? categories: 4 = pure max. strength; 3 = more max. strength than speed; 2 = more speed than max. strength, and; 1 = pure speed stimuli. The various OLs would mainly be done in cycles 2&3 (also in 4&1 if you know what you???re doing). A mesocycle shift from max.strenght to more speed related mesocycle would perhaps look like this:
Max.streght mesocycle 4weeks 3-4-4-3 (shift)
Speed mesocycle 4weeks 2-1-1-2 (shift) -
Participant
Lorien,
Great Ideas, i like the idea of bieng able to have different emphasis days for a 3 days a week micro!! So maybe in a max strength Meso(or a meso where you really want to work on absolute strength) you could do two days of heavy emphasis and one day of power. So in one Micro, like you said, Monday/friday may be 4-3 emphasis. And wed may be 1-2 emphasis. that way we are working Absolute strength/strength-speed but not totally omitting the power/speed stuff. as time moves on the shift could move to the other way around. This will also keep the emphasis for each motor ability separate from each other, because you have a different emphasis each day.(but i am not sure if that matters, i have had good results training both heavy weights and say plyo’s in the same training session, but i know some coaches proclaim that leads to muscle confusion). And if you were training two days a week i think you have to combine strength and speed. Whats do you think?
What i also like is the fact that using the OL’s style lifts you have such a wide array of excercises to use. For example: 4:max strength: snatch grip deads, clean shrug pull, Olympic style back squat. 3: Stength-speed: power clean, high clean pulls, jerks. 2: Speed-strength: power snatch, drop snatch, also power snatch from blocks(the russians found this to be there fastest lift). 1: speed: jump squat, depth jump, maybe even the OL’s using the split style w/light weight.
Coach J
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Keymaster
[i]Originally posted by briangoldstein[/i]
no, not even what I am advocating… merely trying to understand why you use them with your athletes…
As I have stated — I have used them, and will probably use them again, but if their use is redundant (given the other modalities listed), why include them?I don’t really think the stimulus is so redundant that it should be taken out of a program. Jumps and sprint work are indeed explosive and speed oriented but the difference is that they tend to overload the eccentric portion (up to 6-10x bodyweight on ground contact) of the movement more and OLs overload the concentric portion of the movement (pulling bodyweight + bar load).
How do you cycle them with advanced athletes approaching comp and peak?
One of the ways I use OLs during comp phase is as a strength maintenance tool. Because they involve so many muscle groups and because the emphasis can be shifted based on the load used they are my first choice of excercises to keep in a program as volumes (and exercises) in the weight room (and track) are dropped. For example, during comp phase, an athlete could substitute a normal weight workout with 6 x (2 cleans + 1 front squat + 1 jerk) and put in enough work on every muscle group to maintain the strength and power developed in earlier phases while keeping volume low to enhance system recovery.
And how do you use them with very young developmental athletes?
I haven’t worked with young athletes for a while but Matt and I both coached a USA Weightlifting Club team that had over 60 kids younger than 12 years of age. The club was marketed for sports performance enhancement rather than for competitive weightlifting but everyone, including the youngest kids, learned how to do full competition style OL (albiet with low loads) as well as olympic style squat. I can say without a doubt that there was a marked improvement in their movement skills although I can’t say whether it was definitinitely due to the OLing or not.
ELITETRACK Founder
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r those kind of combo lifts a good way to help recovery early in the season, and should they be used on a regular basis?
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Mike,
i really like those combo lifts. You can work alot of muscle in a short amount of time, especially when you have to cut volume pre comp. I have also used the combos with lighter loads and upped the reps some and used it for conditioning in the weightroom. -
Keymaster
[i]Originally posted by frit17[/i]
Mike,
i really like those combo lifts. You can work alot of muscle in a short amount of time, especially when you have to cut volume pre comp. I have also used the combos with lighter loads and upped the reps some and used it for conditioning in the weightroom.Yeah I use the combo lifts like that also, sometimes in place of a bodybuilding circuit. As for using them for recovery, I don’t know if I’d go that far. But I would say that one of their many uses is can be as a means of increasing volume to enhance work capacity and elicit specific endocrine responses. On the other hand, they can also be used during very intensive phases where the focus is on track work but you want to maintain strength and power gains. As with all exercise modalities it’s function depends on the volumes and intensities used.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Member
MIke do you ever use band squats. I feel they’re much better than regular squats for athletes. In a normal squat you have to decelerate at the top (negative effects for sprinting and jumping). But in band squats you accelerate all the way through. If you don’t advocate them why not? Are they too difficult for inexperienced/weak lifters, Too time consuming/expensive
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Keymaster
I’d actually say that most programs combine OLing with the powerlifts (squats, deadlifts, bench presses). If you’re asking whether the powerlifting takes the form of WSBB-style powerlifting then I’d say their aren’t too many that do that although we did at OU for a while and I know Matt (the ET moderator) likes to set up programs like that too.
As for bands, I used them when I was at OU and I do like them quite a bit but we actually don’t have them here and with our current setup they would be logistically quite difficult to setup.
ELITETRACK Founder
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I like to make my programs up having the olympic lifts as the focus but cycle like the westside template. So, for example, my athletes will power clean for a few weeks then hang clean then maybe snatch or clean pulls. Also, our squatting technique is always olympic style (high bar, close stance) because I have found that by the time the kids are proficient at doing both squat styles the off-season is over. I agree with Mike on the bands, they are great but by the time 64 high school kids set up their bands you’re lucky to have 10 minutes left in the workout.
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Participant
i’ve never seen a pic of ilympic style squat, im not sure if im doing them. I do wide stance cause it favors my body, and i go parallel and abit below the bar is high i guess dont know what low low is?….Close stance is what im worried about cause i suck at narrow stance squats, my body aggravates me when i attempt them
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Keymaster
Here’s a pic of an Olympic style squat:
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