which lift helped sprinting the most and which lift or lifts have been useless, if not, detrimental to sprint performance to you?
what lift has given you best results for sprint performance? and what lift/s have not?
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Bench press has correlated more with my sprint results in the 60m and 100m than any other lift. Dead serious. The reason for that is almost definitely not causal to any degree, though.
I don’t think there is one lift that ever made, for me, a big difference, but rather how someone does the lifts. I did various forms of lunges, deadlifts, squats, cleans, and snatches and everything else in between since I was a freshman or sophomore in high school in various coaching programs and there was never a time I had an epiphany that one thing improved sprint performance the best. Everything worked and everything didn’t work depending on how it was done. Too bad it took too long to realize this.
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ParticipantI rarely bench press so i guess i’ll never be fast! darn it.
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Participant
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I don’t think there is one lift that ever made, for me, a big difference, [b]but rather how someone does the lifts[/b] …
could you go into little more details please?
regarding ROM?form?speed of movement?reps range?intensity?frequency?recovery time?
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Participant
[quote author="davan" date="1262586821"]…
I don’t think there is one lift that ever made, for me, a big difference, [b]but rather how someone does the lifts[/b] …
could you go into little more details please?
regarding ROM?form?speed of movement?reps range?intensity?frequency?recovery time?[/quote]
Everything you listed.
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Participant
[quote author="davan" date="1262586821"]…
I don’t think there is one lift that ever made, for me, a big difference, [b]but rather how someone does the lifts[/b] …
could you go into little more details please?
regarding ROM?form?speed of movement?reps range?intensity?frequency?recovery time?[/quote]
I would add “motor control” to this.
Regardless of the lift the pattern of muscle recruitment is what matters.
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Participant
Bench press has correlated more with my sprint results in the 60m and 100m than any other lift. Dead serious. The reason for that is almost definitely not causal to any degree, though.
Davan, how could you determine that bench press correlated more than any other lift with your sprint results? Did bench press helped you to apply more force to the ground or it helped to improved your RFD? Still trying to figure out how did you determine that, maybe just by feel?
I don’t think there is one lift that ever made, for me, a big difference, but rather how someone does the lifts. I did various forms of lunges, deadlifts, squats, cleans, and snatches and everything else in between since I was a freshman or sophomore in high school in various coaching programs and there was never a time I had an epiphany that one thing improved sprint performance the best. Everything worked and everything didn’t work depending on how it was done. Too bad it took too long to realize this.
It’s true, depending on how it was done. Like some sprinters would say wich I know (6.68/10.41, another 6.73/10.38 under same coach)that it helps what we do and they don’t do any weight training. They would say hill/stairs, some jumps and sprinting, sprinting, sprinting.
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Participant
[quote]Bench press has correlated more with my sprint results in the 60m and 100m than any other lift. Dead serious. The reason for that is almost definitely not causal to any degree, though.
Davan, how could you determine that bench press correlated more than any other lift with your sprint results? Did bench press helped you to apply more force to the ground or it helped to improved your RFD? Still trying to figure out how did you determine that, maybe just by feel?
I don’t think there is one lift that ever made, for me, a big difference, but rather how someone does the lifts. I did various forms of lunges, deadlifts, squats, cleans, and snatches and everything else in between since I was a freshman or sophomore in high school in various coaching programs and there was never a time I had an epiphany that one thing improved sprint performance the best. Everything worked and everything didn’t work depending on how it was done. Too bad it took too long to realize this.
It’s true, depending on how it was done. Like some sprinters would say wich I know (6.68/10.41, another 6.73/10.38 under same coach)that it helps what we do and they don’t do any weight training. They would say hill/stairs, some jumps and sprinting, sprinting, sprinting.[/quote]
I think you and Nick both missed out on where I said it correlated and was not causal. By that I mean, when my bench is/was its highest, I am/was more likely at my peak sprint performance, but that doesn’t mean the bench press was in any way causing this to happen (it more likely happened because I deloaded my weights overall). This is fairly objective: what is your projected max on bench and what is your current best sprint performance? The max on bench is going to be relative due to technique and such, but it’s as simple as that.
The point of me mentioning that is that lifts on their own have nearly 0 relation to how fast you’re going to run. It is nice to think that an increase in a certain lift is going to translate to performance on the track, but it almost never works out that way.
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Participant
There are so many elements in a well designed training program that it should near near impossible to tell which lift was the most successful at making you faster, if any did at all. Since one element leads into another if you have any sort of progression in your training, they work synergistically and I’m not sure how you can separate the performance gains.
So I say barbell curls in the squat rack.
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Participant
There are so many elements in a well designed training program that it should near near impossible to tell which lift was the most successful at making you faster, if any did at all. Since one element leads into another if you have any sort of progression in your training, they work synergistically and I’m not sure how you can separate the performance gains.
So I say barbell curls in the squat rack.
+1 🙂
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Participant
Every program for each athlete is going to be different depending on weaknesses, imbalances, training age, prior training, etc. What is best or more helpful for some, might have little to no effect on others. Davan and Josh hit the nail on the head though, everything works in sycronization and it is about the entire plan rather than a single component.
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Participant
By that I mean, when my bench is/was its highest, I am/was more likely at my peak sprint performance, but that doesn’t mean the bench press was in any way causing this to happen (it more likely happened because I deloaded my weights overall).
Now I understand what you mean.
This is fairly objective: what is your projected max on bench and what is your current best sprint performance? The max on bench is going to be relative due to technique and such, but it’s as simple as that.
I do sometimes bench press just for fun but not for getting faster, I bench only 100kg. As a teenager I was trained for middle distances, so there wasn’t much place for fast running and developing such a biomotor abilities wich would help making me more explosive and faster. My 400m PB was 52.16 and since 20 years of age I wanted to focus just for this event no more 800m or 1500m, so after couple of seasons I ran under 48sec (47.95sec). My top speed is low – 30m flying 3.03, but I remember tested it when I was at the age of 18, so I ran 3.30sec. What else I could expect when I ran 30m flying in 3.30sec at the age of 18? Of course nothing special.
The point of me mentioning that is that lifts on their own have nearly 0 relation to how fast you’re going to run. It is nice to think that an increase in a certain lift is going to translate to performance on the track, but it almost never works out that way.
If you think that it has 0 relation to how fast you are going to run then why do you lift?
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Participant
Once again if you would read what I say, there is no relation on their own. Within the context of a complete program, there may be indications of improvements in sprint speed because of some other factor, but that would only be really an indicator because of everything else that is already being done within such a program and would be specific to both the athlete and the program and likely have minimal crossover to other athletes. Reading comprehension is key.
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Once again if you would read what I say, there is no relation on their own. Within the context of a complete program, there may be indications of improvements in sprint speed because of some other factor, but that would only be really an indicator because of everything else that is already being done within such a program and would be specific to both the athlete and the program and likely have minimal crossover to other athletes. Reading comprehension is key.
I understand very well what you are saying. Maybe better question would be wich is the most specific lift for sprinting? I guess many would say squat, others split squat or one leg squat, maybe power clean, deadlift. For example I would choose deadlift if no problems with a back b/c it involves all major muscle groups at once. It’s great that you can drop a bar as well if you need to. I know you call Barry a clown, but he is not Davan. Don’t you believe that you could sprint at same level or even faster using deadlift as a major lift without any additional lifts? I know it’s hard to believe nor I want you to believe, just saying
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Participant
For ones that didnt work so well, the deadlift. Going from 140kg to 250kg, didn’t do much for my performance.
Joe, wasn’t your weight room work using deadlift when mostly hidden in the gym b/c of a foot injury? This is from you:
My weight is about 77kg right now (eating crap atm), 6 feet tall on the dot. Same as Nick, long jump. Done nothing special yet as ive been hidden in the gym for 3 years with a foot injury from tj. Did 7.28m with VERY limited training in the summer.
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My own personal experience has been that no specific lift has really correlated with my performance, impossible to tell for me.
However ive noticed when my lifts in general go up over a long period of time, im going to be more powerful/faster/better.But i like being really strong anyway, so i continue to work on that 🙂
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Participant
[quote author="davan" date="1262640180"]Once again if you would read what I say, there is no relation on their own. Within the context of a complete program, there may be indications of improvements in sprint speed because of some other factor, but that would only be really an indicator because of everything else that is already being done within such a program and would be specific to both the athlete and the program and likely have minimal crossover to other athletes. Reading comprehension is key.
I understand very well what you are saying. Maybe better question would be wich is the most specific lift for sprinting? I guess many would say squat, others split squat or one leg squat, maybe power clean, deadlift. For example I would choose deadlift if no problems with a back b/c it involves all major muscle groups at once. It’s great that you can drop a bar as well if you need to. I know you call Barry a clown, but he is not Davan. Don’t you believe that you could sprint at same level or even faster using deadlift as a major lift without any additional lifts? I know it’s hard to believe nor I want you to believe, just saying[/quote]
Deadlift is more back than it is glutes/hamstrings/quads/gastroc, all of which are more important as prime movers than the deadlifts he recommends. Look at the images of his athletes and others–all are overutilizing lower back. He also recommends having no eccentric portion of the lift, which is another massive negative if you want to use the deadlift to train for sports (if you drop it, it is necessary to then add other movements to train this aspect, yet he does not do this).Barry is a clown. I’ll stick by it. I tried his program, I ran over half a second slower than I did off of just doing meets (100/200/4×100/4×400 2-3x a week) and treadmill walks in between meets. I’ve had massive improvements in the last 12-18 months in my sprinting with a strength program only utilizing RDL variations @ low loads for deadlifts (along with clean/snatch variations and lunge variations). Classical deadlifts, especially as he promotes them, have not been a part of my program. That isn’t anything against deadlifts, but to say they are the most specific or best would be not only a lie, but dangerous for people who may actually believe it.
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Participant
Another thing to consider is that there are delayed training affects. As Davan noted, his sprint went up AFTER he deloaded most weightlifting. If you don’t give your body time to adapt to a new strength level, you may not see any improvement. Also, if you switch exercises, say going from heavy cleans to something else, you may see sprint begin to improve in concert with some other exercise, such as bench (see Davan again). However as Davan correctly points out, the correlation with bench press was probably not causal; rather a delayed adaption to strength increases that were only realized after a taper or even deload seems more likely.
Where this gets tricky is if Davan had switched from lunges to say snatch instead of bench, would we all think that the correlation in improvement between speed and snatch would be causal? It would be hard to tell.
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Participant
[quote author="Linas" date="1262643199"][quote author="davan" date="1262640180"]Once again if you would read what I say, there is no relation on their own. Within the context of a complete program, there may be indications of improvements in sprint speed because of some other factor, but that would only be really an indicator because of everything else that is already being done within such a program and would be specific to both the athlete and the program and likely have minimal crossover to other athletes. Reading comprehension is key.
I understand very well what you are saying. Maybe better question would be wich is the most specific lift for sprinting? I guess many would say squat, others split squat or one leg squat, maybe power clean, deadlift. For example I would choose deadlift if no problems with a back b/c it involves all major muscle groups at once. It’s great that you can drop a bar as well if you need to. I know you call Barry a clown, but he is not Davan. Don’t you believe that you could sprint at same level or even faster using deadlift as a major lift without any additional lifts? I know it’s hard to believe nor I want you to believe, just saying[/quote]
Deadlift is more back than it is glutes/hamstrings/quads/gastroc, all of which are more important as prime movers than the deadlifts he recommends. Look at the images of his athletes and others–all are overutilizing lower back. He also recommends having no eccentric portion of the lift, which is another massive negative if you want to use the deadlift to train for sports (if you drop it, it is necessary to then add other movements to train this aspect, yet he does not do this).RBarry is a clown. I’ll stick by it. I tried his program, I ran over half a second slower than I did off of just doing meets (100/200/4×100/4×400 2-3x a week) and treadmill walks in between meets. I’ve had massive improvements in the last 12-18 months in my sprinting with a strength program only
utilizing RDL variations @ low loads for deadlifts (along with clean/snatch variations and lunge variations). Classical deadlifts, especially as he promotes them, have not been a part of my program. That isn’t anything against deadlifts, but to say they are the most specific or best would be not
only a lie, but dangerous for people who may actually believe it.[/quote]Are there any successful sprint programs that use deadlifts in their classical
form?I can’t think of any. On the other hand almost every other successful includes squat, bench or at least some form of press and most include some oly lift variation wouldn’t you say.
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Participant
I know one sprinter who ran 10.6 FAT in his high school senior year, off only running track during the outdoor season. He was white, and his freshman and sophomore years showed him to be moderately talented. He claims his 455 1RM ass to ground squat was why he gained so much speed.
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Member
I’m going to take a wild guess and say that squatting 455lbs deep =/= great results or even necessarily progress. There are people on this forum that squat more than that and don’t break 11, while training for the sprints. Some don’t break 12.
While I agree with the sentiment of the post, I have to ask, who on here can deep squat more than 455 lbs and can’t break 12?
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Participant
As far as I recall, my 100m sprint performance went up as my relative maximal strength increased, i.e I got to a certain 1RM in the full squat, then lost 10-12 lbs bodyweight up to the competition date with the max squat remaining the same.
My LJ/TJ performance however improved simultaneously with the increase of the load I could handle in the snatch. Full squat strength was sacrificed in the process, which could be why I couldn’t perform as good in the 100m as before, while still being able to attain the same maxV.
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Participant
This thread in 1 sentence: If you have the genetic capabilities, you can do hanging toe raises and improve your performance
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Participant
I tried his program, I ran over half a second slower than I did off of just doing meets (100/200/4×100/4×400 2-3x a week) and treadmill walks in between meets. I’ve had massive improvements in the last 12-18 months in my sprinting with a strength program only utilizing RDL variations @ low loads for deadlifts (along with clean/snatch variations and lunge variations). Classical deadlifts, especially as he promotes them, have not been a part of my program. That isn’t anything against deadlifts, but to say they are the most specific or best would be not only a lie, but dangerous for people who may actually believe it.
Davan, could you generally describe your program when you ran half a second slower?
How long did you use Barry’s program?Did this program included ASR runs as well? What was a frequency of deadlifing per week and how many lifts per session did you use? What else did you do apart from DLing and sprinting?Any plyos and additional lifts? How often did you do reloading?You ran half a second slower, but it doesn’t say anything much b/c we don’t know main reasons why you ran slower. Deadlifting won’t make you slower if you use right volume and intensity. Fast sprinting won’t make you slower if you use sufficient volume as well. Actually any program can make you slower and any program can make you faster. Barry didn’t coach you, you used his program but what a “mixture” of his program you did is another question.
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Participant
I did the program practically verbatim from the book ~4 years ago. It has been discussed thoroughly on this site and was discussed over on Barry’s site years ago before Barry had the thread deleted. Go read the threads. The program is simply not suitable or adequate for somebody who needs more fitness and speed work, but already has acceptable strength levels. His training is targeted towards getting high school girls to lift weights. Look at his buddy CogitoErgoZoom, who coaches high school track in Illinois, and frequently gets crapped on by all of the other schools in the area. If the program was special, the results would show and they don’t.
The problem with the program is that there were no longer adequate volumes of training within his program at all and nearly 0 low intensity training. I was unfit, didn’t do enough acceleration work (in spite of him saying I did too much with a whopping 3 or so sessions over a 10 week period), and my LEGS were not any stronger and likely much weaker (classical deadlift is far more back than it is legs). The program on its own is only slightly better than somebody doing machine circuits, possibly worse than just doing machine circuits for many. I went from doing a basic classical strength program @ lower intensities and using the back squat and having 2-3 meets a week (>1000m of quality SE/wk) to having tiny lifting volumes @ stupid intensities and having less than half the amount of speed work. The problem was the program, not the deadlift, though the deadlift was part of a shitty program, making an already questionable lift for sprinters even worse.
Linas, until Barry PRODUCES (not attach name to an already successful HS athlete who barely knows the guy) a male sprinter, he’ll be left in the joke category. Even among HS sprinters, he frequently tries to attach his name to them under suspicious conditions and circumstances. The Felix family has tried to distance themselves from that joker numerous times as it is because of his inappropriate attribution to her results. Remember that Allyson did not do the deadlift protocol as he describes it until her SENIOR YEAR and she discontinued it after multiple back injuries that hampered her during the season. 100% of her sprint training was also handled by a different coach not affiliated with Barry.
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