Why not just do your max work then take time off to recover properly instead of screwing around with mediocre recovery and wasting your own time?
What’s the point of submaximal sprinting?
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Participant
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Participant
Submax sprinting is a better way to maintain form through out a speed endurance run. If you are going at your absolute threshold for maxV for repeat 120s for speed endurance (or any other SE distance for that matter), good luck at making the workout a quality one.
No one is arguing for submax MaxV work. But in order to develop speed endurance concurrently with MaxV, you need to ease off the effort that 5 or so percent on the SE days.
edit- I should say no one is arguing for ONLY submax MaxV work. I’ve had good results early on in my first MaxV cycles using slightly submax effort.
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Participant
Patrick,
Do you run as fast in training as you do in meets? I would be surprised if you run even within 2 tenths of your personal best. I have training and competition times from numerous athletes in a variety of programs and few people ever run as fast in training as they are able to in meets. Which then leads to the question, why not slow down yourself just a little bit, allow for more volume and better quality in the runs and see what happens?
I personally hate slogging out tons of reps, but I have found that just doing pure 100% max speed all the time just doesn’t cut it either and it seems ALL of the top programs have a fair amount of what has now been called “controlled speed work” or otherwise known as intensive tempo.
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ParticipantI’m pretty sure i run faster in training than i do in meets…
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Participant
Thats ok, you also rock during your sprints 🙂
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Participant
HAHA! You guys are silly lol…
Tomorrow night, and thanks a lot!…
I actually feel like long jumpers may often run faster in training…because unlike with sprinters we have an accuracy thing to deal with as well…in training where accuracy doesn’t matter as much speeds may be faster…
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Participant
I can see how that would affect it.
I’ve had days doing flying 30’s where a guy a solid .5-.7 slower in the 100 is going as fast as I am.
Its actually rather disheartening, but in a race it was never even close.
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Participant
Submax sprinting is a better way to maintain form through out a speed endurance run. If you are going at your absolute threshold for maxV for repeat 120s for speed endurance (or any other SE distance for that matter), good luck at making the workout a quality one.
Is speed endurance even considered sprinting?
Either way I was more referring to people who do max workouts then subsequent decreased intensity workouts for recovery instead of resting properly
Do you run as fast in training as you do in meets? I would be surprised if you run even within 2 tenths of your personal best. I have training and competition times from numerous athletes in a variety of programs and few people ever run as fast in training as they are able to in meets. Which then leads to the question, why not slow down yourself just a little bit, allow for more volume and better quality in the runs and see what happens?
Depends how efficiently the taper is achieved. Weakminded people may run faster with crowds and adrenaline pumping. If you are a professional, you will run like a professional (i.e. consistently).
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Participant
Active recovery is better than doing nothing…
And also CNS dominant biomotors develop better when contrasting biomotors are also being developed…
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Participant
[quote author="Josh Hurlebaus" date="1248825596"]Submax sprinting is a better way to maintain form through out a speed endurance run. If you are going at your absolute threshold for maxV for repeat 120s for speed endurance (or any other SE distance for that matter), good luck at making the workout a quality one.
Is speed endurance even considered sprinting?
Either way I was more referring to people who do max workouts then subsequent decreased intensity workouts for recovery instead of resting properly[/quote] Well they have done studies on various forms of active recovery versus just rest and active recovery has always won out, so….
And how is speed endurance not sprinting?
[quote author="davan" date="1248828768"]Do you run as fast in training as you do in meets? I would be surprised if you run even within 2 tenths of your personal best. I have training and competition times from numerous athletes in a variety of programs and few people ever run as fast in training as they are able to in meets. Which then leads to the question, why not slow down yourself just a little bit, allow for more volume and better quality in the runs and see what happens?
Depends how efficiently the taper is achieved. Weakminded people may run faster with crowds and adrenaline pumping. If you are a professional, you will run like a professional (i.e. consistently).[/quote]
Weakminded? Like Maurice Greene, Ato, and numerous other athletes known to have run significantly slower in practice than in meets? Yep, really weakminded and unprofessional.
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Participant
I did see Ato run 2.64 for fly 30m electronic in training with a 30m run in…
Were his 30-60m splits from races faster than a 0.88 10m average?
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Participant
He ran faster than that in 1997 from 30-60 in his 9.90. I don’t have the splits from his other races. If you watch the old videos they have from Eurosport, you can see their training runs (various 10s/30s and some 60s) and they are not what they ran in meets.
Where/when did you see him do this?
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Participant
Another big difference for Ato compared to most people is that he had 2 other world class sprinters that he trained with and tested against every day.
The weak minded comment is just as ridiculous as the idea that sitting on your ass makes you recover faster.
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Participant
He ran faster than that in 1997 from 30-60 in his 9.90. I don’t have the splits from his other races. If you watch the old videos they have from Eurosport, you can see their training runs (various 10s/30s and some 60s) and they are not what they ran in meets.
Where/when did you see him do this?
Yes it was on a HSI program on Eurosport.
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Participant
Another big difference for Ato compared to most people is that he had 2 other world class sprinters that he trained with and tested against every day.
The weak minded comment is just as ridiculous as the idea that sitting on your ass makes you recover faster.
Even Ato got beaten by Torri (Edwards) during block starts at times.
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Participant
Definitely true. I was just saying that Ato and Mo had a unique training situation in that whoever was #1 in their club was also #1 in the world. Thats alot of pressure during each practice.
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Participant
Yeah i remember Torri beating them…lol…I love Torri!!!!!!
I’m like 80% sure i remember seeing timing gates, i have it on VHS here actually…UK version, i need to get it put to DVD and on the net becuase it also has a great documentry on Pedroso on it…
Thinking about it though, 2.64 would sound right for a hand time, but also electronic? i’m not sure…
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Participant
Yeah i agree with you…
Trey Hardee said that he ran under 2.70 electronic in training from 30-60m and i totally dont believe it…
That would mean that he runs WAY faster in training than he ever does in meets…
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Participant
I was thinking the same thing about Hardee’s flying 30’s. He’s fast, no doubt (10.28 with a 6.71 60m PB means he’s covering last 40m in anywhere from 3.6-3.8) – so that 2.7 is not out of the realm of possibility – but doing that in practice would be pretty remarkable.
I also suspect when he ran his 10.28 that he was in a lot better condition than when he ran the 6.71 (ie – would see him running closer to 6.55 or 6.6 en-route) – which is more like a 3.7 split for 40m.
I would put him at closer to 2.8-2.9 for a flying 30m, depending on what the run in was.
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Participant
Well they have done studies on various forms of active recovery versus just rest and active recovery has always won out, so….
Maybe for short-term situations. Long term I’d bet there is no difference or even better for time off. Plus time off removes repeated bout effect, making muscles more receptive, which deloading doesn’t.
And how is speed endurance not sprinting?
Because it sounds like an oxymoron
Weakminded? Like Maurice Greene, Ato, and numerous other athletes known to have run significantly slower in practice than in meets? Yep, really weakminded and unprofessional.
Doesn’t signify anything though. Maybe they didn’t taper as efficiently as they did for meets, maybe they were juicing extra for meets, etc. Being a great athlete also doesn’t mean you are a professional.
The weak minded comment is just as ridiculous as the idea that sitting on your ass makes you recover faster.
As opposed to submaximal sprinting making you recover faster?
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Participant
ya but i think nobody here would suggest speedendurance for recovery.
whats youre hang on this Pat: maxV is about 10m in a race, the rest is hanging on to that speed and taking home as much of it as yoou can. you would want to train that, eh?
for the recovery: extensive tempo will have completly different running mechanichs than maxV, so its not the same, it is sprinting though non the less. and it helps recover in several ways.
anyone who cant cope with active recovery lacs in general fittness and wont be able to perform higher volumes of maxeffort runs. -
Participant
ya but i think nobody here would suggest speedendurance for recovery.
whats youre hang on this Pat: maxV is about 10m in a race, the rest is hanging on to that speed and taking home as much of it as yoou can. you would want to train that, eh?
for the recovery: extensive tempo will have completly different running mechanichs than maxV, so its not the same, it is sprinting though non the less. and it helps recover in several ways.
anyone who cant cope with active recovery lacs in general fittness and wont be able to perform higher volumes of maxeffort runs.But intensive tempo workouts definitily do aid recovery…on many levels…
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Participant
Yeah you are quite correct!
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Participant
I think Patrick just doesn’t know his terminology and is confusing SE with int or even ext tempo.
Otherwise there is no way he would ever think that SE would be used for recovery.
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Participant
For me personally proper recovery would be very easy day of training, maybe some slow running in the forest for better relaxation, some streching or simply going to the pool for 20min, get some blood floting in the muscles. But such recovery is usually done after some hard days of training or after block of intense training. During usual weekly cycle of course won’t be always one day of max sprinting and next doing nothing. Tempo running is one of the options, but I don’t think that it adds recovery after intense sprinting workout, usually its done for contitioning and if athlete doesn’t want to add additional stress then I think intervals shoudn’t be run faster than 75% of max speed. B/c keeping speed above 75% of max speed fast twich fibres start to work and that won’t help for recovery at all.
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Participant
ya but i think nobody here would suggest speedendurance for recovery. whats youre hang on this Pat: maxV is about 10m in a race
You can achieve maxV in 10m?
You have been a good troll, Patrick. Good day to you.
Why? because I question illogical practices people worship as gospel truth without analyzing their purpose?
I think Patrick just doesn’t know his terminology and is confusing SE with int or even ext tempo.
Otherwise there is no way he would ever think that SE would be used for recovery.
If you think you need to work on endurance, then go ahead. What I don’t understand is people doing submaximal sprinting to improve their sprints. Endurance doesn’t always have to be done during recovery either and probably shouldn’t be
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Participant
You have no clue what you are talking about. Do you even know what the primary reason for using tempo is? It sure as hell isn’t endurance.
Flow was saying MaxV lasts for 10m in a race.
Nobody is worshiping this “practice” as gospel. We are defending a sound training theory. What you have yet to do is define why you view tempo to be “illogical” and present alternatives for recovery and for prepping the body for special endurance runs later on in the progression, which if you remove int tempo you will have a hard time doing.
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Participant
Also, what type of submax running are you talking about? Everything under 100%? Because we’ve hit on ext tempo, int tempo, special endurance and speed endurance so far and you’ve yet to distinguish which ones you disagree with.
All you’ve said is submax work is illogical
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Participant
Seriously, whole thread is making no sense.
Like Josh says, you only get 10m of actual MaxV – Maybe 15.
So logically….
Everything up to that (first 20 to 45m – depending who you are) is acceleration work.
Everything beyond that – 60m (up to) 200m would be Speed Endurance
Everything before and after period of MaxV is necessarily sub-maximal sprinting and a pivotal part of successful sprint training.
If one does not do SE work, one’s body and conditioning will not be prepared to do the 100m.
Don’t think our Pat is a troll – just confused about his terms – and in need of this important discussion.
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Participant
Patrick, I wanted to ask, do you think that for sprinter is not worth doing any type of endurance work during any time of the season?
Do you think that submaximal sprinting doesnt improve speed?
How do you think wich way of sprinting is a safer one to avoid injuries maximal or submaximal?
How do you think how much (volume in training session) aproximately athlete can run doing max sprinting?
As I understand for you every sprinting session would be like testing or like running in a meet?
Are you suggesting doing maximal sprinting sessions starting from off-season untill competetive season week after week?
Im just asking, thanks -
Participant
Do you even know what the primary reason for using tempo is? It sure as hell isn’t endurance.
Tempo should be for endurance as previously stated. Because it sure isn’t to sprint faster
What you have yet to do is define why you view tempo to be “illogical”
I’m not saying it’s illogical, I’m saying use it for what it is and not what it isn’t.
Not to mention this same guy said he runs 70s in his training.
20-70
Also, what type of submax running are you talking about? Everything under 100%? Because we’ve hit on ext tempo, int tempo, special endurance and speed endurance so far and you’ve yet to distinguish which ones you disagree with.
All you’ve said is submax work is illogical
Haven’t said that. Said using submax work for sprinting is illogical
Patrick, I wanted to ask, do you think that for sprinter is not worth doing any type of endurance work during any time of the season?
That’s debatable
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10368374https://elitetrack.com/articles-read-2173/
Do you think that submaximal sprinting doesnt improve speed?
Yes
How do you think wich way of sprinting is a safer one to avoid injuries maximal or submaximal?
Why is this relevant? Are you trying to avoid injuries or sprint faster?
How do you think how much (volume in training session) aproximately athlete can run doing max sprinting?
200m or less usually
As I understand for you every sprinting session would be like testing or like running in a meet?
Every max sprinting session
Are you suggesting doing maximal sprinting sessions starting from off-season untill competetive season week after week?
Im just asking, thanksNo, you need time off to recover properly and supercompensate
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Participant
I prefer max sprinting at 100% for block days(25m-30m) and sub max sprinting for everything else. speed endurance isnt max sprinting to me. I agree that it is submaximal sprinting.speed endurance is sprinting but not all out like a 60m dash. I don’t see the point of doing submax sprinting for block work. to me all it does is program the stretch shortening cycle not to be able to stretch and shorten at the rate it needs to in races that are 200m and below, and this usually results in strained hamstrings (at least in my experience as an athlete and coach). But sum max sprinting is good for rest days and intensive tempo, extensive tempo also only for block work when trying to stress more biomechanical things (sacrificing speed for form).
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Participant
[quote author="Linas" date="1248945808"]Do you think that submaximal sprinting doesnt improve speed?
Yes[/quote]
Thats not true. Sprinter can improve neuromuscular patterns with 90-95% intensity as well. If it wouldn’t be true then many sprinters woudn’t run fast and many wouldn’t improve at all. Most are using intensities of 90-95%, yes there are sessions with full effort like accereration work, sometimes flying rus, but not every sprinting session full-out sprinting.[quote]quote author=”Linas” date=”1248945808″]How do you think wich way of sprinting is a safer one to avoid injuries maximal or submaximal?
Why is this relevant? Are you trying to avoid injuries or sprint faster?[/quote]
I want to run faster and be less injury prone as well. What’s the point be injured and loose all season? Think about MJ, this guy was prone to injuries a lot, once he tried running 100m races, he was injuried. MJ mainly used sprinting at about 95%, not full out for sprinting session. Exept I think acceleration work on a turn when season approached. 19.32 in 200m not so bad I think? Even he trained for 400m that season, solid volume of distance work as well and distance work didn’t slowed him down as you see.
Patrick maybe your sports isn’t sprinting, maybe you do something else and sprinting is just additional work?
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Participant
[quote][quote author="Linas" date="1248945808"]Do you think that submaximal sprinting doesnt improve speed?
Yes[/quote]
Thats not true. Sprinter can improve neuromuscular patterns with 90-95% intensity as well. [/quote]
Neuromuscular patterns?If it wouldn’t be true then many sprinters woudn’t run fast and many wouldn’t improve at all.
Don’t know how you reached this conclusion
Even he trained for 400m that season, solid volume of distance work as well and distance work didn’t slowed him down as you see.
Who said it did?
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Participant
Neuromuscular patterns?
Sorry, my english is not my first language, I meant neuromuscular pathways, as well making CNS more sensitive. So do you think running at let’s say 95% of max speed don’t allow to contract for fast muscle fibres?
author=”Linas” date=”1249059203″]If it wouldn’t be true then many sprinters woudn’t run fast and many wouldn’t improve at all.
Don’t know how you reached this conclusionFrom facts and results
Even he trained for 400m that season, solid volume of distance work as well and distance work didn’t slowed him down as you see.
Who said it did?[/quote]
I read in one of Hart’s articles
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