i suppose this could go under the training theory section but anyway..
if the most important meet is in early june when should mileage reach its highest point then drop down and remain there, i was thinking late march
when should mileage be highest
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Participant
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KeymasterI think the answer will depend on whether you will be running XC and indoor track and if so how much emphasis you are placing on these seasons. If you're running both I think milage should probably be highest in the early fall with smaller peaks following the XC season and indoor track seasons.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
i was referring just to the upcoming season,
to be more specific when should mileage be at it's highest after xc has ended,
i am running indoor track, however it takes a backseat to outdoor, would a good option be building mileage steadily through the indoor season, with a small peak for indoor states, then dropping mileage somewhat for the outdoor season, basically sacraficing some "freshness" during indoor, to set up a stronger base for outdoor -
Participant
thanx
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Keymaster
KW-
Would you recommend an increase in milage for a couple weeks following the indoor season (before outdoor season heated up and perhaps after a short regeneration period) or would you suggest it drop from January until the end of the outdoor season.ELITETRACK Founder
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Keymaster
Would you recommend this even for athletes who are focusing on the same events for both the indoor and outdoor seasons (as opposed to athletes who might drop down a distance for the outdoor season)?
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
I'm probably not as concerned about volume as I am about keeping people healthy and in changing the composition of the workouts between indoor and outdoor. The mistake I see in middle distance is in going up rather than just revisiting tempo runs, farlek and Max VO2 stuff. I'm afraid if we change the intensity and raise the volume simulatneously, it might leave the athlete flat at the beginning of the outdoor meet season.
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Keymaster
KW-
Thanks. I'm actually not suggesting that intensity and volume be increased simultaneously. I'm suggesting that intensity drops off in the 2-4 weeks following the final indoor meet and milage increases; after which intensity ramps up to the highest levels of the year. From a physiological standpoint I'd think this type of refresher high volume work would be needed to maintain the benefits of big milage developed earlier in the year.ELITETRACK Founder
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Keymaster
4 weeks of ramped up milage should produce enough of a training effect to at least stave off detraining of the physiological benefits stressed by higher volume work. I would suspect that if high milage was last seen in the fall and then not returned to until 9-10 months later there would be some detraining effect on muscle enzyme profile, aerobic capacity, etc. Perhaps reducing weekly milage while still keeping in the weekly long run would prevent this detraining effect. When you reduce volume during indoor and outdoor track do you keep in the weekly long run?
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
A weekly long run (45+ minutes) or prolonged cycling (2+hours at 150+ bpm) should keep any detraining in check with regards to enzyme profile and capillary beds. However a weekly VO2max run should complement that are 1.5-3 miles ran as hard as possible preferably on hills. In colder climates, the weekly long run is a must as training days in the winter are limited by weather. I think mileage should be highest in precompetition or specific prep phases of a distance runners training. If you are a 400/800m runner then I think your highest mileage should be in fall or early winter in general prep phase, but as that type of runner you lose little fitness if maintain 16-20 miles with half of it coming in one day (I know this breaks all the rules, but it works). I think the training should get more intense and volumes reduced over the last 6 big competitions.
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Keymaster
For 400-800m runners I wouldn't have any problem only doing 1-2 cycles of higher milage every year at the beginning of the year because the event is far less influenced by aerobic qualities than in the mile and above.
What would you guys suggest for weekly milage breakdown over the course of the year for 800m, 1500m, and 5k runners over GPP, SPP, Pre-Comp and Comp for all three seasons (XC, indoor, and outdoor).
ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
For HS or collegiate runners not competing in july. Training age plays a large part in this but here is what someone's goal should be
800m [summer 50mpw, fall XC 50 down to 30, GPP 25, SPP 25, Pre Comp 20, Comp 15 down to 8 (mostly junk or intensive/extensive tempo)]
1500m [summer 60-70 mpw, fall xc 70 down 40-45, GPP from 40 up to 70, SPP 35, pre comp 30, comp 30 down 15]
5000m [summer 60-80 mpw, fall xc 80 down to 50, GPP from 50 up to 80, SPP 65, pre comp, 45, comp 45 down to 30]
I would maintain the long run into comp with the 1500m runner, I would discontinue it in pre comp for the 800m runner, and 5000m runner would keep it year long, hopefully building upon it.
Something else I want to add is that most 800m runners in High School who go to college and run should be moved back in distance gradually to compete at 1500m. Those identified as all rounders (good 400m speed sub 50s and quality 3m or 5k XC runners) will probably spend most of their XC season just putting in miles and not worrying about XC results so much. Without the ability to go sub 50 in 400m coming into college it is unlikely that runner will ever break 1:51 in 800m to advance to regionals in DI or be all american quality at any other level so its best if they proceed to work on being a 1500m runner. Identification of talent by college coaches is typically poor, since they rarely get to see anything but the best runners. So I propose to any kid who runs borderline scholarship times in 800m 1:54-1:56.0 range, is identify how fast you can go in a 200m race, if that time is slower than 23.5s start thinking 1500m, because either you are going to have to develop speed, show ultra human capabilities in speed endurance. You may really be a 3:45 1500m guy waiting to happen. Most of the 3K+ guys know who they are they run 1:58 for 800m then go out and bust out a 4:15 1600m. In HS its hard to tell a kid who can qualify with a 1:58 for 800m finals at state, that he should think about 3200m, its even harder to tell a kid who runs 1:56 that he should run the 1600m race. There is a lot of blame that can go around, improper training, identification, and overracing at HS level, lack of resourcefullness, recruiting, and innovation by college coaches, and of course resistance to change by athlete. If its me I would rather be the 2nd best miler in the state as opposed to the nth best 800m runner. That's another reason I like using a 3200m/400m/4×4 race combo early on to identify what distances suit my runners. A mediocre 3200m race, followed by an above average 400m is a good indication of 800m capabilities, an average to decent showing in both probably means they are a 1600m runner, and an above average 3200m followed by a respectable showing means they are probably probably a true distnce runner. A superior or above-average performance in both the events is rare even on the HS level.
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Participant
Danimals guidleilines are pretty decent, but I'm not sure I could just throw out hard numbers for everyone. I would be trying to up volume without sacrificing quality too much. The actual volume would depend on the athlete and their training volume background and what I see they can handle. I know that sounds like a cop out, but the more I see coaches doing the cookie cutter approach with respect to volume, the more I think that individualization could be done better.
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Member
I would say in regards to Danimal's numbers that dropping down to 15 miles per week in the comp phase made me feel lethargic in the past. I have the most success when I drop from around 60-65 summer slash winter months to around 30 or 35 in comp phase. This is relatively anecdotal, but from speaking to different athletes in cross country–those who gravitate to the distances(1600 and up) in track, and those who are strong 4/8/16 runners–the distance guys feel like they perform best when they taper only slightly and over a shorter time, where the shorter event men seem to perform best when their volume is cut significantly early on.
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Participant
KW, you're right about individualization and I think wsgeneral pretty much explains part of it. I would say that my guidelines would be for higher end athletes with 3-4+ years of training age. I find that athletes with lower training ages should work on improving work capacity opposed to a quantity to quality approach. I know that's vague because work capacity can be done in many different ways, but I feel plenty of quality/technical work can be included in warmups, drills, plyos, and strength work which also help improve work capacity.
As for regards to a taper, its all about the individuals response, the 15 mile week I suggest is one that contains probably 1 time trial of 1K to 1.2K on a monday followed by a day of active rest in pool or on bike with a 5-6 mile run on Wednesday. Which doesn't leave much room to go above 15 miles.
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Keymaster
As for regards to a taper, its all about the individuals response, the 15 mile week I suggest is one that contains probably 1 time trial of 1K to 1.2K on a monday followed by a day of active rest in pool or on bike with a 5-6 mile run on Wednesday. Which doesn't leave much room to go above 15 miles.
Dan-
I thought you were big on junk miles….couldn't you still throw in some junk miles for warmup and / or cooldown to up the total.ELITETRACK Founder
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Participant
i am a huge junk mile fan, but still with warmup and cool down running you are only getting around 15 miles that week, but you don't need a warmup run or cooldown run with your 5-6 miler it should be part of the run. I don't see much need for warmup or cooldown over 2 miles. I think you have to treat the TT like a race day. That 15 mile week is the final week of the season.
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Participant
Also. junk miles mean more when you are trying to up the mileage or improve fitness at the 15 mile stage they are only therapuetic and slow the debt that has to be paid back.
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Keymaster
I've put a new poll on junk miles. Vote here.
ELITETRACK Founder
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Member
don't see much need for warmup or cooldown over 2 miles. I think you have to treat the TT like a race day. That 15 mile week is the final week of the season.
I am a large fan of the Portugese protocol of long warmups and cool downs before races and workouts–it's a good way to get some solid conditioning without really thinking of it as a conditioning run. Also on racedays I always get a 20-30 minute AM run with a few strides. During my race warmups, after some experimentation, I found that I perform better after an intense (moreso than the normal warm up) warm up-I go 10 minutes real easy, 5 at AC to Marathon pace, then I am hitting half marathon to 10k pace the last 5-8 mins. Then throw in some drills and strides, get around 10 minutes then hit a few solid accels and then the gun goes. If I were to treat TT days like race day, it would get very close to 7 miles before cooldown of the second run. Again this is gained from trial and error, and by no means would work for everyone, but 15 miles would be rediculously low especially for upperclassmen who, IMO, should be given an progressive annual volume from freshman year all the way til they conclude their career.
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