[Nick Newman]

Nick Newman on September 18, 2009 at 5:59 am #16194

Myself and a few professors at school were talking about this today. They ALL said that there is no need for a sprinter/ jumper to ever catch a clean…

They said,

a) The most important part of the clean is the second pull

b) Heaviest loads can be achieved through just a clean pull

c) Loads can be moved fastest through just a clean pull

d) Becuase of points a and b greater stimuli is achieved through just a clean pull as well

e) The eccentric component of the clean can be better achieved through different exercises

Bompa also told me one day that there is no need for a catch unless your an Olympic lifter. Thought this was all interesting…

So what do you all think? Why the catch? Why not the catch? etc etc…

[Jay Turner]

Jay Turner on September 18, 2009 at 6:57 am #89341

Very interesting Nick.

I never thought of it that way. I’d like to know what others think as well.

[Matt Norquist]

Matt Norquist on September 18, 2009 at 7:04 am #89342

What other exercises are better for the eccentric development (vs. catching the clean)?

What about folks who don’t have access to a real powerlifting type gym set-up (IE – can’t drop weights/bars at our gyms)?

[davan]

davan on September 18, 2009 at 7:16 am #89343

I have always been curious how people plan to quantify the Olympic lifts without catching? Are you going to use a tendo unit or force plate for every set or what?

Points B & C do not seem to be complementary to each other. If the load is heavier, how is it going to be moved faster? Unless you are changing the entire movement, that really doesn’t make any sense.

Getting rid of the catch wouldn’t be a huge deal, but most of the problems people have with the catch stem from a shitty pull, so I don’t really see eliminating the catch being an awfully effective way to improve the situation.

I am also assuming we are talking about powercleans versus full cleans, which would make it a much different question/discussion.

[burkhalter]

burkhalter on September 18, 2009 at 7:21 am #89344

Main reason…..

Teaches the body to absorb high loads.

Quantify the load to some reasonable degree. You could set up the little stick contraption or band with a bell to check height.

Can see how C is really true.

But really, simply…… WHY NOT CATCH IT. You pull the damn bar that high just catch it. Catching a power clean is about the easiest part of the lift. Just think WHIP ELBOWS FAST and you’ll catch it. People who don’t want to catch the bar are either afraid or lazy in my opinion.

[Nick Newman]

Nick Newman on September 18, 2009 at 7:27 am #89345

Good point Davan, I asked the same first question. And response i got was a bit cloudy. You could do it just through looking to see if you pull it high enough, maybe mid way between pecs and belly button. But this wont be consistant at all…there must be a way to do it though…just make sure you are actually pulling it and not just deadlifting it….

also for points B & C i meant with different loads…so compared to a power clean you can lift heavier weights (true) and during lighter pulls you can lift THAT weight fast than with a clean (not sure)…

Matt, other than the obvious plyometric type exercises, i was told Jump squat with various loads (got to be careful with these) would be just as if not more effective in this sense…

Otherwise, eccentric squats, loaded box drops (Bompa uses these a lot) etc..could be used…

[Nick Newman]

Nick Newman on September 18, 2009 at 7:31 am #89346

Main reason…..

Teaches the body to absorb high loads.

Quantify the load to some reasonable degree. You could set up the little stick contraption or band with a bell to check height.

Can see how C is really true.

But really, simply…… WHY NOT CATCH IT. You pull the damn bar that high just catch it. Catching a power clean is about the easiest part of the lift. Just think WHIP ELBOWS FAST and you’ll catch it. People who don’t want to catch the bar are either afraid or lazy in my opinion.

the main reason for bringing up this conversation today with the PHD guys…was becuase (not just me) but many athletes catch the clean in a so called “wrong”, “dangerous” way BUT with that technique can move great loads and thus generate bit stimulus…

When these same athletes correct their technique the loads they can lift drop off a lot and therefore so does training affect…so i asked about this and we just kept talking about it…

So basically speaking…it isn’t very easy to catch a clean properly for many people actually…and when they do catch it properly loads drop a lot…

So how to get over this…?

also, you can learn to absorb high loads in other ways…ultra heavy quarter/ rhythm squats for one…

[davan]

davan on September 18, 2009 at 7:35 am #89347

Yeah, I get that you are just relaying what you heard, I just don’t see how you are pulling any of the weights @ a greater load or @ a greater speed if you are going through the same range of motion. It just doesn’t make sense. The only way I could see that being justified is if you somehow have yo reduce the load because the catching ability is so poor, but then that would mean the pulling ability is poor as well so we are back at square one. Either way, any “loss” would be incredibly minimal to non-existent. The other thing is that most people when they are not required to catch will almost always start using their arms to get the weight up. Then we go back to shitty pulling being at the root of all this and on and on it goes.

[Nick Newman]

Nick Newman on September 18, 2009 at 7:41 am #89348

I can clean pull more than i can clean becuase i can’t/ won’t/ don’t (i dunno) get under the bar with heavier loads…The clean is very mental but this eliminates that…

Gives you the chance to jump pull/ shrug very explosively with heavier loads…or light loads…

You could also dip under the bar (as if your going to catch it) and then quickly step away and let it drop.
Just to avoid poor catching positions.

[davan]

davan on September 18, 2009 at 7:49 am #89349

Yes, but poor catching positions are 99 times out of 100, probably more often actually, because of mistakes occurring during one of the pulls. It takes time to have a great catch, but to have a safe one or one that is manageable is not difficult unless ego is in the way. How easy or not easy it is to catch is based primarily on peak height of the bar. Unless someone is structurally incapable of going below a 1/8 squat or so, you should be able to drop plenty far enough below. Now, people will often start catching wider… and wider… to shorten the pull height needed, but this is most definitely not creating a better or greater training effect, it is simply shortening the ROM and also forcing you to subrecruit from different muscle groups and movement patterns.

I just don’t see the issues being corrected by eliminating the catch. People aren’t magically getting these efficient and effective pulls and magically messing up the catch. I don’t even think I have seen a video on youtube or someone in person that has had a poor catch that could not in large part be attributed to poor pulling (this assuming there is not some sort of wrist/elbow/shoulder injury or pathology).

[Nick Newman]

Nick Newman on September 18, 2009 at 7:54 am #89350

All good points…

And the biggest problem with the catch is? Just not strong enough for that weight? timing?

[davan]

davan on September 18, 2009 at 7:59 am #89351

I would say the biggest problem with the catch is poor pulling to start with, which leads to a host of other, interrelated factors. I just cannot think of a time (I’d love for someone to point out an example) where a normal, healthy individual had pulling mechanics that were great and somehow couldn’t manage to do an effective catch. Just can’t think of it. I have thought about this a good amount as I have at various times thought I might just not be great at catching, but everything else as good. Literally time after time after time any issue could in large part be explained through some sort of set-up or pulling error (however minor). I don’t think it is hard to get somebody to have respectable pulls and catches, I just dismiss the argument that somehow a poor catch is distinctly separate and unrelated to a poor pull.

[mortac8]

mortac8 on September 18, 2009 at 8:29 am #89352

I don’t catch cleans either. As long as I can get my elbows under and perpendicular to the bar and tap the bar off my chest, I count the rep…that’s the quantification. That being said I suck at athletics. That being said, I see many people hurt their wrists trying to clean too heavy a weight that wouldn’t have issues with a non-catch technique.

BTW, catching a ~250lb load dropping down from about 3cm is great eccentric loading?

[flow]

flow on September 18, 2009 at 8:37 am #89353

check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zUX7vcA1QQ&NR=1

a way to do higher loads on the pull and still have an eccentric phase?

the worst thing for me is catching the bar after letting it “drop” from mey chest cause im in a gym where i cant let it drop to the floor. really gets on my shoulders.

[Chad Williams]

Chad Williams on September 18, 2009 at 8:49 am #89354

Few thoughts on this.

– In the limbo catch, the athlete has the fear of falling (over-rotating as well as Brooke has referenced before), the body recruits strongest muscles in order to complete the lift. Most likely, there is a fear and/or an imbalance of strength.

– The catch is an eccentric load that helps prepare the athlete for forces felt in sprinting and jumping when caught in a quarter squat. Also, you are training the core to stabilize during high intense activities. We drop squats at a certain portion in the season, so the catch is one way to maintain the “squat” stimulus.

– Davan is right about tracing back all problems to the pulls, but sometimes is it easier to assess the catch than the actual clean without cameras.

– Not a knock but Professors are not coaches. They sit in labs and theorize about things, but reality is a much different world. Hence why scientists/physicists don’t necessarily make the best coaches.

– Also, if you can pull way more than you can catch, IMO the engine will keep gapping the frame till the engine finds a weakness in the system and boom! Like putting a 12 cylinder engine in my crappy 4 cyl Nissan and seeing what happens.

[Nick Newman]

Nick Newman on September 18, 2009 at 9:04 am #89355

Who can’t pull more than they can catch? I am positive that everyone can…it’s impossible for it to be the other way around and i’m certain it isn’t equal.

One of the guys i spoke with mentored under Kraemer and is new to teaching…he has always been a coach and an elite football player as well…

I’d like to see a long term training study, becuase as long as the eccentric loading was substituted with something else, i doubt performance would decrease …

[davan]

davan on September 18, 2009 at 9:19 am #89356

Nick, how can someone possibly pull significantly more (throw some percentages out there) in a correctly done clean pull than in a correctly performed cleaned? You are pulling to the same height when performed correctly. Most people do not perform cleans (whatever variation you wish, powercleans in your particular case) correctly and they most definitely do not perform clean pulls correctly. They put more weight on the bar and do an already poor pull with an even worse mechanics. As with everything, these is not 100% efficiency, but you shouldn’t lose a significant amount on the catch, if any to an obvious degree.

Someone should post side view video of someone who is pulling to identical heights in a clean pull versus a powerclean to show these ‘issues’.

[Nick Newman]

Nick Newman on September 18, 2009 at 9:34 am #89357

Can’t say percentages, everyone is different.

But yes, people can pull more than they clean…

Most athletes do not clean (catch) the weight they actually are able to catch. Like i said before more goes into the catch than just doing it. Comfort, metal side, fear all those things…I know for sure i can pull the same height with the bar with 330 as i did when i cleaned 310. But i just won’t catch it…whatever the reason i can’t right now…

It isn’t all cut and dry with this exercise.

[davan]

davan on September 18, 2009 at 10:23 am #89359

Can you post the videos side by side so we have a better idea?

[mortac8]

mortac8 on September 18, 2009 at 10:52 am #89360

You should be able to clean pull a hell of a lot more than you can power clean (say 15-20%). We are talking about a clean pull vs power catch not a clean pull vs full catch.

[davan]

davan on September 18, 2009 at 10:59 am #89361

Thanks for the clarification. One of the biggest promoters of the “no-catch” is Bob Alejo who advocates pulling the bar to sternum level–about the height you would pull in a powerclean, so the no-catch advocates seem to vary here. Of course, if you are doing a clean pull you will obviously be able to do more weight because you are pulling the bar a little more than half the distance. That isn’t exactly a great argument and doesn’t mean there will be a greater training effect. Why not just do speed deadlifts if that is the goal? Actually, that is what most people’s clean pulls look like anyway since they don’t actually do a clean pull, just a light and fast deadlift with a shrug at the top.

[aivala]

aivala on September 18, 2009 at 11:00 am #89362

A “bad” catch (i.e. with a very wide stance and weird tibia angles) allows to catch more weight than the usual because it allows you to lower faster and more than the usual, so you don’t need to pull the weight as long (and high) as it would be required with a proper technique. Therefore, less overall power is needed to lift the same weight. (less h in the [m*g*h]/t).

[mortac8]

mortac8 on September 18, 2009 at 11:04 am #89363

I still don’t get the argument of the wonders of eccentric loading on a power clean catch. Probably about as much loading as landings on power skips. If you want eccentric loading, go triple jump.

[aivala]

aivala on September 18, 2009 at 11:10 am #89364

” date=”1253252070″]I still don’t get the argument of the wonders of eccentric loading on a power clean catch. Probably about as much loading as landings on power skips. If you want eccentric loading, go triple jump.

But you lack the joint breaker impact.

[Nick Newman]

Nick Newman on September 18, 2009 at 12:27 pm #89373

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSdTipz6mcc&NR=1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCVM3uh4hAU&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HValLf50A6s&feature=related

The more i see these the more i think there’s nothing wrong with it…This technique can lift more weight for many athletes so why change it!

[davan]

davan on September 18, 2009 at 12:34 pm #89374

What technique are you referring to, Nick? I must be missing something because those look like well executed power cleans?

[Chad Williams]

Chad Williams on September 18, 2009 at 1:36 pm #89375

For Mort

from this thread

https://elitetrack.com/forums/viewthread/4830/#43623

. I think that the Olympic lifts do tend to carry over to sprinting. Especially the pull-from-the-floor variants with short acceleration ability. I also think the catch in Olympic lifting is similar to the eccentric loading experienced in top-end speed running.

[Daniel Andrews]

Daniel Andrews on September 18, 2009 at 3:15 pm #89376

– Not a knock but Professors are not coaches. They sit in labs and theorize about things, but reality is a much different world. Hence why scientists/physicists don’t necessarily make the best coaches.

– Also, if you can pull way more than you can catch, IMO the engine will keep gapping the frame till the engine finds a weakness in the system and boom! Like putting a 12 cylinder engine in my crappy 4 cyl Nissan and seeing what happens.

Best two lines in this whole debate. nice post Chad.

I think the Catch may actually be the most important part for a sprinter, jumper, thrower. While the pull is just a way to get to the catch. The biggest problem I see is people chasing numbers with the Oly lifts. Without trying to knock Nick’s professors too much, greater loading can be done with deadlifts and squats than a clean pull and greater power outputs with things like medicine ball throws. Of course there are alternative means to eccentric loading and training, it doesn’t mean one is greater than the other, just as the alternatives exist to the clean pull. Silly professors, coaching is for coaches.

The second quote reminds of the great 20-40m sprinters who beats everyone in the 40m of a race, but is blown out the back of race by 70m.

[mortac8]

mortac8 on September 18, 2009 at 9:46 pm #89378

For Mort

from this thread

https://elitetrack.com/forums/viewthread/4830/#43623

[quote author="Mike Young" date="1170652544"]. I think that the Olympic lifts do tend to carry over to sprinting. Especially the pull-from-the-floor variants with short acceleration ability. I also think the catch in Olympic lifting is similar to the eccentric loading experienced in top-end speed running.

[/quote]
I think the catch in the OL helps top speed sprinting about as much as doing tricep kickbacks with a pink dumbbell helps women nab the flab.

[tkaberna]

tkaberna on September 18, 2009 at 11:14 pm #89379

Sorry if this was repeated earlier but I just skimmed. I tell my jumpers to catch and stand up with the weight to mimic the giving of a penultimate step in the ankle, knee and hip joints and the pushing back up after the takeoff step plants. Maybe I have been wrong.

[burkhalter]

burkhalter on September 19, 2009 at 12:51 am #89381

” date=”1253290643″][quote author="Chad Williams" date="1253261239"]For Mort

from this thread

https://elitetrack.com/forums/viewthread/4830/#43623

[quote author="Mike Young" date="1170652544"]. I think that the Olympic lifts do tend to carry over to sprinting. Especially the pull-from-the-floor variants with short acceleration ability. I also think the catch in Olympic lifting is similar to the eccentric loading experienced in top-end speed running.

[/quote]
I think the catch in the OL helps top speed sprinting about as much as doing tricep kickbacks with a pink dumbbell helps women nab the flab.[/quote]

He basically said it mimics it. The fast turnover from concentric to eccentric is what I have heard many say they like the catch for. Wouldn’t whether it helps or not be based on multiple factors and wouldn’t that be kind of tough to quantify?

Dan Pfaff agrees with Mike.

[burkhalter]

burkhalter on September 19, 2009 at 12:58 am #89382

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSdTipz6mcc&NR=1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCVM3uh4hAU&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HValLf50A6s&feature=related

The more i see these the more i think there’s nothing wrong with it…This technique can lift more weight for many athletes so why change it!

This technique lifts the most weight. See Pablo Lara – 190k Power Clean at 76k bodyweight. Last lift on the video. If you have the Ironmind Atlanta tape you can see the same lift from the front.

You can gauge your pulls by placing a broomstick on two squat stands at the height you want to achieve. Stand between them and do the pull and you will be able to tell when the bar hits it. Or stand in a power rack, place a band with a bell attached and each time you touch the band with the bar it will ring.

You can do pulls with the quick turnover. The Chinese do this a lot. They pull to full extension and immediately reverse their body as if dropping under but they don’t actually drop under. They usually do them supramax.

For catching and keeping the wrist from getting hurt just think right before the lift WHIP ELBOWS FAST and if the pull is decent this will almost everytime place the bar in the right spot on the front delts.

[tychver]

tychver on November 2, 2009 at 7:29 am #90866

It’s incredibly difficult to keep strict form when using pulls as a main exercise. For that reason alone you should catch your cleans. It’s very easy to start pulling your self towards the bar and getting much less height on your pull than you think.

[GqArtguy]

GqArtguy on November 2, 2009 at 9:04 am #90869

a) The most important part of the clean is the second pull

Depends on the lifter. For most athletes, Id say the most important thing is transitioning under the bar. There are many people who can rip a ton of weight off the floor, but cant drop under it. OLing is about catching weight, not pulling weight. Additionally, most people overpull on the concentric portion of the lift and waste too much time in the air, hence burning the available time to catch a weight.

If the argument is just about power production and load, then most track athletes would be better off ditching the power clean and hitting the full version of the lifts. Somehow, thats getting skipped and the profs are going straight to clean pulls.

b) Heaviest loads can be achieved through just a clean pull

No, the heaviest load can be achieved through the clean deadlift. In order for the clean pull to have any bearing on power production (on non-elite lifters), it needs to be 100-120% of your best clean. Clean pulls arent meant to be super heavy because it slows you down otherwise.

c) Loads can be moved fastest through just a clean pull

Is this opinion or are there facts to back this up? Regardless, the fastest portion of the lift is transitioning to catch. For a successful lift, you have to stand up and have it at a height where you can drop under. Again, most athletes and lifters over pull.

d) Becuase of points a and b greater stimuli is achieved through just a clean pull as well

This has already been addressed.

e) The eccentric component of the clean can be better achieved through different exercises

This is opinion. There are many ways to build up a certain quality, but that by itself is insufficient to claim superiority of one method over another. The Russians, Chinese, Bulgarians, etc. all train very differently, but all have gold medalists in OL. When you have top athletes, it doesnt matter much how you train them.

[jock1310]

jock1310 on March 31, 2011 at 1:36 am #106967

Hey Nick don’t say i always pick on you because i actually agree with you on this one.

Catching the pull is a very mental part of the lift. and i also agree that everybody can clean pull more than they can catch to the same height, which logically is increasing the training effect yes? so in this instance as long as the eccentric component of the lift was substituted with some of the excercises suggested it actually sounds like a good idea.

Here are another few reasons:

– Mentally lower impact, save that focus for competition day otherwise you’ll burn out.
– less chance of injury of wrists or something. (think somebody said this)
– movement of greater loads during a strength phase. Not everybody will agree but i count this as 3 reps or lower.

Personally i catch the clean because its what i was taught. If I changed now it would take me a season or two to get used to the numbers and be able to gauge what kind of shape i thought i was in.

[Nick Newman]

Nick Newman on March 31, 2011 at 6:50 am #106977

[quote author="Nick Newman" date="1253233780"]
a) The most important part of the clean is the second pull

Depends on the lifter. For most athletes, Id say the most important thing is transitioning under the bar. There are many people who can rip a ton of weight off the floor, but cant drop under it. OLing is about catching weight, not pulling weight. Additionally, most people overpull on the concentric portion of the lift and waste too much time in the air, hence burning the available time to catch a weight.

If the argument is just about power production and load, then most track athletes would be better off ditching the power clean and hitting the full version of the lifts. Somehow, thats getting skipped and the profs are going straight to clean pulls.

b) Heaviest loads can be achieved through just a clean pull

No, the heaviest load can be achieved through the clean deadlift. In order for the clean pull to have any bearing on power production (on non-elite lifters), it needs to be 100-120% of your best clean. Clean pulls arent meant to be super heavy because it slows you down otherwise.

c) Loads can be moved fastest through just a clean pull

Is this opinion or are there facts to back this up? Regardless, the fastest portion of the lift is transitioning to catch. For a successful lift, you have to stand up and have it at a height where you can drop under. Again, most athletes and lifters over pull.

d) Becuase of points a and b greater stimuli is achieved through just a clean pull as well

This has already been addressed.

e) The eccentric component of the clean can be better achieved through different exercises

This is opinion. There are many ways to build up a certain quality, but that by itself is insufficient to claim superiority of one method over another. The Russians, Chinese, Bulgarians, etc. all train very differently, but all have gold medalists in OL. When you have top athletes, it doesnt matter much how you train them.[/quote]

Shoot sorry, forgot about this thread…

I was comparing a clean to a clean pull. So obviously a clean deadlift could have higher loads, a partial clean deadlift could have even higher loads…

Loads are moved faster through a clean pull rather than a clean. This is from my opinion but also backed up through un-published data i conducted using several higher level sprinters/jumpers…

As far as eccentric loading. Since I wrote that I have changed my thoughts really. It is an a great way of developing eccentric strength for sure. Other methods are useful also but probably not as transferable because the speed and load at which the eccentric is stressed to much lower overall.