Your Recovery Process

    Posted In: Recovery, Restoration, and Rehabilitation

        • Participant
          Craig Pickering on January 1, 2010 at 6:57 am #16427

          So, what is your recovery process? What do you do to ensure you make each session as good as you can be? Do you do anything different after a race? What about between rounds at champs? How do you monitor overtraining?

          My training process:
          * Immediatly post training – protein/creatine shake, compression tights
          * 90 mins post training – Lunch
          * 4 Hours post training – additional carb / BCAA mixture
          * 6 Hours post training – dinner and antioxidant mix
          * 7 hours post training – stretch, foam roll
          * 9 hours post training(pre-bed) – protein shake, antioxidant mix, ZMA
          * 10 hours post training – sleep!

          Id be interested to hear what you do?

        • Participant
          Matt Norquist on January 2, 2010 at 12:21 am #93054

          Your set up is good. I’d bet most of us don’t put as much attention on recovery process as we should. I know I don’t.

          My real world recovery process looks like this:

          1. Peri-workout nutrition – This is something I’d never done at all until recently. I now am pretty religious about having a drink during my workout. I use Surge by Biotest – which is pretty tasty, sweet, and high in protein, carbs, and Amino Acids
          2. Immediately post workout – cool-down, stretch, foam roll
          3. Contrast Shower (Don’t have access to ice baths, so do not do this).
          4. Will often get in the hot tub – not sure this is all that good for recovery, but I like how it feels!
          5. Post Workout – Try to eat a good meal as soon as possible.
          6. Localized ice on areas giving me more pain

          In an ideal world, I would get massage work done a couple times per week, but can’t justify the cost. Would also like to have more convenient access to ice baths. (I don’t really want to make my own at my house, and my gym only has them in the physical therapy section, which you can’t just walk into).

        • Participant
          Irish100m on January 2, 2010 at 1:42 am #93055

          1. Jog down, stretch. Strides if legs are heavy. Plenty of fluids. Always put leggings back on.

          2. Depends, sometimes cold bath and ghen warm shower. Sometimes warm bath, sometimes jsut a shower.

          3. Good meal. Normally i train in evening so can come hme and have my meal. If ive been training in somehwre like Manchester, 45 odd minutes drive away i’ll eat something before i get home.

          4. Ice any particularly sore parts of body (sore shins atm, really annoying)

          Have never used recovery shakes, protein shakes etc. Are they worth it?

        • Participant
          Miele-Scott on January 2, 2010 at 8:16 am #93070

          what is a foam roll?

        • Participant
          Craig Pickering on January 2, 2010 at 9:57 am #93080

          Its different for me Matt – its my job!

          I dont really get chance to use ice baths, as you have to book them in advance, and I never know when my session will end! Occasionally I do one off cold baths if I am feeling particularly tired, but thats it. I also apply ice later in the day, and massage at least 1xper week.

          Scott, a foam roll is just a large roll of foam that compresses the muscles, releasing tension.

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on January 2, 2010 at 10:03 am #93081

          So you only train once a day Craig? No AM/PM splits…

          I will post my usual day later.

        • Participant
          Miele-Scott on January 2, 2010 at 10:36 am #93082

          ok, thanks for thr reply

        • Participant
          Matt Norquist on January 2, 2010 at 12:25 pm #93085

          Its different for me Matt – its my job!

          I dont really get chance to use ice baths, as you have to book them in advance, and I never know when my session will end! Occasionally I do one off cold baths if I am feeling particularly tired, but thats it. I also apply ice later in the day, and massage at least 1xper week.

          Scott, a foam roll is just a large roll of foam that compresses the muscles, releasing tension.

          I know. Am envious. It is a good set up. If only being an ex-athlete with 7k Deca potential could pay the bills!!

          How’s training this year? Are you going to get under 10.00 this year?

        • Participant
          Josh Hurlebaus on January 2, 2010 at 12:51 pm #93087

          Post workout- bcaa+carb drink w/electrolytes and creatine. Beta alanine
          90 min after workout- meal or protein rich snack
          Few hours later- 2nd dose of beta alanine
          1 hour before bed- roll out and stretching
          Bed- ZMA and protein
          Sleep- I usually get at least 8 hours now that I’ve gotten into my “not in school anymore” routine

          On tempo or recovery days I take 2-3 doses of arginine as well. On days with any sort of manual therapy that is deeper than a foam roller I will ice as well.

        • Participant
          Pete Diamond on January 2, 2010 at 2:13 pm #93088

          Craig, this thread was a great idea. It’s interesting to see the pros, the college guys, and the Johnny Lunch-pails like Matt and me comparing notes.

          I usually lift at lunch-time, followed by a cold shower.
          Lunch immediately after, usually consists of a salad with a lot of beans and/or chicken for protein.
          After that, I ice anything that hurts. My co-workers have gotten used to me walking around with ice packs saran-wrapped to various parts of my body.

          My running workouts in the evenings are followed by a cool-down jog, icing, and a meal.

          Due to my travel schedule, which dictates how much sleep I get from day to day, I try to make sure I warm up well and cool down well, since I can’t really count on anything else off the track.

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on January 2, 2010 at 2:39 pm #93090

          Yes this is a great thread!…My double practice days go like this;

          Training session number 1 (9am – 11am)

          * Pre- training – Nzero & P6 (Cellucor supps)
          * Immediatly post training 1 – Ice bath, protein/creatine shake
          * 60 mins post training 1- Lunch
          * 4 Hours post training 1- Carb loaded snack bar

          Training session number 2 (4pm – 5pm)

          * Immediatly post training 2 – BCAA mix, glutemine supps
          * 30 mins post training 2 – dinner
          * 3 hours post training 2 – ligth stretch, roller
          * 4.5 hours post training 2 – P6 supp
          * 5 hours post training 2 – BED! (10pm)

        • Participant
          davan on January 2, 2010 at 4:00 pm #93091

          -Sip on a shake during and post-workout
          -Massive PWO feast (Ian Cooley can elaborate)
          -Massage 2-3x a week for 60-90 minutes
          -Foam Roll on every other day + vibrational massage + AIS + heat therapies on off days
          -Active recovery with GF
          -ZMA + Melatonin + Ambien if necessary

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on January 2, 2010 at 4:03 pm #93092

          Foam roller best on hard CNS type days or on easy day ?

        • Participant
          davan on January 2, 2010 at 4:15 pm #93094

          It depends on the situation. A couple hours after hard workouts can work and easy days can work, but it all depends on how you’re doing things. Some guy posted here some months ago he foam rolled for 2 hours–that’ll prob be a bit different than someone doing 10-15 minutes of light rolling.

        • Participant
          B Hobbs on January 2, 2010 at 4:40 pm #93095

          Wow. People are pretty anal about their routines.

          Key #1: Quality Recovery starts with your diet.
          Key #2: Sleep
          Key #3: BCAA Supps should be your friend
          Key #4: Power Plate Stretching and Foam Roller

        • Participant
          Craig Pickering on January 2, 2010 at 10:10 pm #93100

          Being anal though is good as you get into a routine, and everything becomes automatic!

          I do double sessions days twice a week – these are conditioning days with lifting/circuits in the AM, then core stability/general conditioning in PM. I never run and lift on the same day. I know this sounds unusual, but its more how things are done in the UK as opposed to the US. I wouldnt mind doing more running sessions, but I wont argue with my coach over it!

          I also foam roll on both CNS intensive and non-intensive days, just to get the general muscle tightness out – the key areas for me are QL in the back, TFL, and ITB.

          Matt, training is going well, but I’m always a poor judge of that, I never know until I race! Id like to go sub-10.00, but I havent run a PB since 2007, so my first goal is to go sub-10.10, which, if the conditions were right, I should have done in 2009, so hopefully that will be achievable. Big year this year for me with both the European (no Jamaicans and US) Champs and Commonwealth Champs!

        • Participant
          Josh Hurlebaus on January 3, 2010 at 1:11 am #93102

          You haven’t technically run a PR since 2007 but your win at Gateshead last year should count for more than it does. 10.3 into a big headwind on a wet track? You’ll PR for sure this year as long as the weather permits it.

        • Participant
          Irish100m on January 3, 2010 at 2:30 am #93103

          Whats your aim for indoors Craig, and when are you opening up your season?

        • Participant
          Carl Valle on January 3, 2010 at 4:07 am #93113

          Not to be critical but for someone of your caliber why don’t you get more manual therapy speedfreak?

          I would bet my life savings you are a sub ten guy with 10.5 therapy protocols.

        • Participant
          Carl Valle on January 3, 2010 at 4:10 am #93114

          Yes this is a great thread!…My double practice days go like this;

          Training session number 1 (9am – 11am)

          * Pre- training – Nzero & P6 (Cellucor supps)
          * Immediatly post training 1 – Ice bath, protein/creatine shake
          * 60 mins post training 1- Lunch
          * 4 Hours post training 1- Carb loaded snack bar

          Training session number 2 (4pm – 5pm)

          * Immediatly post training 2 – BCAA mix, glutemine supps
          * 30 mins post training 2 – dinner
          * 3 hours post training 2 – ligth stretch, roller
          * 4.5 hours post training 2 – P6 supp
          * 5 hours post training 2 – BED! (10pm)

          I would only do Icebath work in the SPP(last week) and comp phase based on the research and pedagogy.

        • Participant
          Ian Cooley on January 3, 2010 at 4:11 am #93115

          -Sip on a shake during and post-workout
          [b]-Massive PWO feast[/b] (Ian Cooley can elaborate)
          -Massage 2-3x a week for 60-90 minutes
          -Foam Roll on every other day + vibrational massage + AIS + heat therapies on off days
          [b]-Active recovery with GF[/b]
          -ZMA + Melatonin + Ambien if necessary

          These are the key to killer PRs

        • Participant
          cdnsprinter on January 3, 2010 at 4:22 am #93117

          So, what is your recovery process?

          *antioxidant mix with protein shake+meal upon awakening
          *contrast shower if too sore during some specific training phase
          *2 hours after 1st meal, protein shake+oatmeal
          *sleep for 60-90 min prior to pre-training meal
          *antioxidant mix with meal about 1 hour prior to training session
          Training session
          *within 30 min after training – protein shake
          *stretch + either ice bath or relax in the pool depending on specific needs
          *90 min after – solid meal and electrolyte drink
          *2 hours after – protein+oatmeal
          *sometimes contrast shower or massage in the evening if needed and really sore
          *2 hours after – solid meal (about 1 hour before bed)
          *ZMA before bed
          *8-10 hours sleep when possible

          *get PT when needed
          *relax as much as possible before and after training session
          *avoid unnessary stress whenever possible, turn off the switch and learn to relax.

          What do you do to ensure you make each session as good as you can be?

          *eat same pre-meal before every workout once you’ve found what works for you
          *set goals
          *use whatever motivates you either before or during training
          *visualisation(short duration)before workout
          *make every session count
          *enough sleep and eat well even in the days before because it can affect your training session
          *general consistency with your approach and recovery process

          How do you monitor overtraining?

          -monitor training log on daily,weekly and monthly basis(and always keep it in context)and even compare it to previous cycles or year(s) when possible/applicable so you can maintain or adapt plan accordingly to current situation
          -As much as it is important to stick to the plan, one must accept to back off/taper before it’s too late as too often IMO people tend to do too much.
          -monitor and keep record of subjective factors well…mood,quantity and quality of sleep,current health(general,physical/injuries and etc and mental/motivation and etc and etc…)and good communication with coach is the key.

        • Participant
          mortac8 on January 3, 2010 at 5:09 am #93120

          [quote]
          What do you do to ensure you make each session as good as you can be?

          *eat same pre-meal before every workout once you’ve found what works for you
          *set goals
          *use whatever motivates you either before or during training
          *visualisation(short duration)before workout
          *make every session count
          *enough sleep and eat well even in the days before because it can affect your training session
          *general consistency with your approach and recovery process
          [/quote]
          Great points/advice.

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on January 3, 2010 at 5:18 am #93121

          [quote author="Nick Newman" date="1262423378"]Yes this is a great thread!…My double practice days go like this;

          Training session number 1 (9am – 11am)

          * Pre- training – Nzero & P6 (Cellucor supps)
          * Immediatly post training 1 – Ice bath, protein/creatine shake
          * 60 mins post training 1- Lunch
          * 4 Hours post training 1- Carb loaded snack bar

          Training session number 2 (4pm – 5pm)

          * Immediatly post training 2 – BCAA mix, glutemine supps
          * 30 mins post training 2 – dinner
          * 3 hours post training 2 – ligth stretch, roller
          * 4.5 hours post training 2 – P6 supp
          * 5 hours post training 2 – BED! (10pm)

          I would only do Icebath work in the SPP(last week) and comp phase based on the research and pedagogy.[/quote]

          Your saying no ice bath during the hardest training time (weeks 4-12) ?

        • Participant
          Craig Pickering on January 3, 2010 at 7:40 am #93126

          Not to be critical but for someone of your caliber why don’t you get more manual therapy speedfreak?

          I would bet my life savings you are a sub ten guy with 10.5 therapy protocols.

          I get physio 3xper week pre-session when I am not injured, from the head physio at the English Institute of Sport (EIS). I get massage 1xper week – I would like more but unfortunately my level of funding prevents this.

          In addition, I pay to see my own osteopath 2xper month, which isnt cheap!

          If I get injured, I get instant access to the head Dr at the EIS, unlimited physio etc.

          Im not sure if thats more what you had in mind, but unfortunately due to a few poor years I cant get as much as I need to – primarily massage, but the physio I get is world class!

        • Participant
          Craig Pickering on January 3, 2010 at 7:43 am #93127

          [quote author="davan" date="1262428229"]-Sip on a shake during and post-workout
          [b]-Massive PWO feast[/b] (Ian Cooley can elaborate)
          -Massage 2-3x a week for 60-90 minutes
          -Foam Roll on every other day + vibrational massage + AIS + heat therapies on off days
          [b]-Active recovery with GF[/b]
          -ZMA + Melatonin + Ambien if necessary

          These are the key to killer PRs[/quote]

          Whats GF? Growth Factors?

        • Member
          rj24 on January 3, 2010 at 8:24 am #93128

          Whats GF? Growth Factors?

          Girlfriend. Get it…wink, wink, nudge, nudge. 😉

        • Participant
          Craig Pickering on January 3, 2010 at 9:07 am #93129

          Ahhhh – an easy cardio workout

        • Participant
          Snoof on January 3, 2010 at 9:11 am #93130

          – post workout: protein+carbs shake
          – 1 hour after workout: protein and carbs rich meal
          – 4 hours after workout: P,CH + good fats meal
          – 30mins before bed: 5g glutamine
          – before bed: cottage cheese or casein based proteins + EFAs
          – sleep: usually 7-8h

          Additionally:
          – 5g of leucine before each meal and ca+mg+vit C with each meal.
          – massage once per week

        • Participant
          mortac8 on January 3, 2010 at 10:48 am #93135

          [quote author="Carl Valle" date="1262471881"]Not to be critical but for someone of your caliber why don’t you get more manual therapy speedfreak?

          I would bet my life savings you are a sub ten guy with 10.5 therapy protocols.

          I get physio 3xper week pre-session when I am not injured, from the head physio at the English Institute of Sport (EIS). I get massage 1xper week – I would like more but unfortunately my level of funding prevents this.

          In addition, I pay to see my own osteopath 2xper month, which isnt cheap!

          If I get injured, I get instant access to the head Dr at the EIS, unlimited physio etc.

          Im not sure if thats more what you had in mind, but unfortunately due to a few poor years I cant get as much as I need to – primarily massage, but the physio I get is world class![/quote]
          Your level of funding prevents this? ugh. Does Dan P know this? Isn’t there a budding massage genius in town that would like to massage a world class sprinter for free?

        • Participant
          Josh Hurlebaus on January 3, 2010 at 3:42 pm #93146

          I would only do Icebath work in the SPP(last week) and comp phase based on the research and pedagogy.

          Carl is that because of an ice baths ability to increase muscle tone and aid in fiber conversion? It’s been years since I read the studies you had on regenerationlab and I can’t remember the exact reasons.

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on January 3, 2010 at 4:10 pm #93148

          Ok, if this is the case…why wouldn’t you ice bath all year?

        • Participant
          davan on January 3, 2010 at 4:31 pm #93149

          You really don’t want increased muscle tone on a regular basis, esp for training. Most people (that are good and gifted) need lower tone, not more. A lot of the research also indicates is blunts the body’s natural recovery mechanisms as well. Don’t have the research on hand, but recall seeing some studies from Carl and know Dan Pfaff has mentioned it in multiple seminars. John Smith also said he saved ice baths for the comp phase and only the hardest training sessions.

        • Participant
          Carl Valle on January 3, 2010 at 4:36 pm #93150


          Post-exercise leg and forearm flexor muscle cooling in humans
          attenuates endurance and resistance training effects on muscle
          performance and on circulatory adaptation

          this is the study that created the confusion…….I agree with the outcomes but remember that the need to deal with such methods frequently is a problem. Use it for comps and perhaps a week or two between SPP and comp I

          remember the grey area between recovery and sports medicine is thin and cloudy. Good sport begins when good health ends is a classic adage.

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on January 3, 2010 at 4:55 pm #93151

          Oh wow…thanks a lot…i had no idea about any of that.

          Well, i’ll try to get more often ice baths now then as competitions are coming up.

        • Participant
          Irish100m on January 4, 2010 at 1:21 am #93154

          Yesterday after the gym i went in the pool, steam room and then jacuzzi. There was quite a powerful jet in the jacuzzi so i put my calves on it … worked wonders I’d had quite sore calves since thursday and now they’re fine!

        • Participant
          davan on January 5, 2010 at 3:44 am #93198

          [quote author="Ian Cooley" date="1262472138"][quote author="davan" date="1262428229"]-Sip on a shake during and post-workout
          [b]-Massive PWO feast[/b] (Ian Cooley can elaborate)
          -Massage 2-3x a week for 60-90 minutes
          -Foam Roll on every other day + vibrational massage + AIS + heat therapies on off days
          [b]-Active recovery with GF[/b]
          -ZMA + Melatonin + Ambien if necessary

          These are the key to killer PRs[/quote]

          Whats GF? Growth Factors?[/quote]

          Yes, must pulse the growth factors ;).

        • Participant
          Craig Pickering on January 5, 2010 at 7:56 am #93216

          Carl, do you have any more papers on ice bath and fibre type conversion? Im very interested in this!

        • Participant
          Irish100m on January 5, 2010 at 8:30 am #93219

          Carl, do you have any more papers on ice bath and fibre type conversion? Im very interested in this!

          Same

        • Participant
          Miele-Scott on January 5, 2010 at 11:51 am #93226

          what is the benifit of foam rollers over “the stick”?

        • Participant
          mortac8 on January 5, 2010 at 12:09 pm #93228

          Foam roller is cheaper and doesn’t suck. It allows for more force/leverage (bodyweight) on a broader surface area. I don’t understand why so many people seem to love the stick. Maybe they have some awesome subliminal marketing scheme…

        • Participant
          Josh Hurlebaus on January 5, 2010 at 12:21 pm #93229

          I like the stick over a foam roller for getting more specific on the muscles im targeting. I like foam rollers because its alot easier to apply a good amount of force without getting an upperbody workout with the stick.

          Other than that its a damn expensive piece of plastic

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on January 5, 2010 at 12:37 pm #93231

          Davan, Carl or someone else who knows…

          Please explain all important information regarding muscle tone as you often mention it.

          I honestly don’t understand anything about it and can’t find much info on it…

          Explain it like i’m an alien please.

          Thanks

        • Participant
          mortac8 on January 5, 2010 at 2:16 pm #93240

          tone = proportion of fired to unfired muscle fiberz

        • Participant
          Matt Norquist on January 5, 2010 at 2:24 pm #93241

          ” date=”1262681218″]tone = proportion of fired to unfired muscle fiberz

          I’d actually like more than that… Does it have to do with hardness or stiffness of the muscle to the touch? If someone’s muscles are soft to the touch but look strong, does that indicate a lack of “tone” – and if so, what are strength and performance implications??

        • Participant
          mortac8 on January 5, 2010 at 2:59 pm #93243

          Sort of. When any given muscle is soft, generally the tone is low. When that same muscle is firmer, the tone is higher.

          Ugh…words… There is an ideal level of tone for “performance”. For example, if you take 3 days off, generally your tone will be low. If you run 3 60s, your tone will rise after each round and your performance will generally increase each round. When a given athlete’s tone becomes too high, race 4,5,6 their performance may plateau then tail off due to a progressive reduction of unfired fibers available to be used.

          Less dominant sprinters in the Olympics generally search for ideal tone via whatever means (explosive/gassing-it-up warmup) for the first round. Their tone is optimal for that first round while Usain Bolt’s tone is probably quite low. In this case, during the second round, the lesser sprinter’s tone is probably now too high (not ideal) and they do not improve upon the first round time. At the same time Usain’s tone is still rising to the appropriate levels in preparation for the final.

          That’s probably an oversimplification but that’s the general idea. You can use your therapist to regulate tone to some degree between rounds however remember there are performance factors other than tone.

        • Participant
          Matt Norquist on January 5, 2010 at 3:05 pm #93244

          Thanks Mort. Very helpful. Had (honestly) never even heard of/considered this effect.

          Maybe this is also why so many of people’s best jumps and throws come on their last attempts??

        • Participant
          Carl Valle on January 6, 2010 at 10:36 am #93261

          speedfreak1,

          Thyroid and skeletal muscle is very scant and I am no longer believing in that mechanism….

          TONE- I agree with mort and this is the trick. Optimal tone is very hard and it’s better to go to a meet with too low of tone and tune up to what you want than come in stiff and risk injury.

          I have felt perfect tone twice and if things were better I may have witnessed another WR.

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on January 6, 2010 at 12:12 pm #93264

          Jeez ok…

          So if this is so important how come no coach has ever even mentioned this to me before? lol…

          SO, how do you know what tone is good for you? What about tone changes after each jump in the long jump? 1-6 jumps…will there be changes?

          So, just sprinting or jumping will increase tone? and that’s why it’s better going to a meet with lower tone rather than high tone because warm up and run throughs etc will raise tone? correct?

          With that being said, doing a day before the meet sprint session or other type of primer session isn’t a good idea then? it can easily cause the athlete to have high tone on meet day ? ? ? ?

          Thanks

        • Participant
          fastsprinter100m on January 6, 2010 at 3:34 pm #93267

          If you know you are in finals then I would rest the day before, if you need to be at your best then I may consider doing 2-3x20m starts.

        • Participant
          sizerp on January 6, 2010 at 11:19 pm #93270

          Jeez ok…

          So if this is so important how come no coach has ever even mentioned this to me before? lol…

          SO, how do you know what tone is good for you? What about tone changes after each jump in the long jump? 1-6 jumps…will there be changes?

          So, just sprinting or jumping will increase tone? and that’s why it’s better going to a meet with lower tone rather than high tone because warm up and run throughs etc will raise tone? correct?

          With that being said, doing a day before the meet sprint session or other type of primer session isn’t a good idea then? it can easily cause the athlete to have high tone on meet day ? ? ? ?

          Thanks

          Coaches here mention it all the time, but it’s actually the massage therapist’s job to figure out and apply the type of massage that is needed in order to end up with a desired muscle tone the day after. In general, I’ve had deeper longer massages during the preparatory period, and shorter and “shallower” massages, more like touch-ups, during competition season and especially the day before a meet. It helps a lot if the therapists has tons of experience with track athletes too, I doubt a general masseur will be able to make the more sophisticated adjustments optimal athletics performance requires.

        • Participant
          Irish100m on January 7, 2010 at 12:40 am #93273

          This tone theory is really interesting

          I always have at least one day off before competing, for the most important competitions i have two days off.

          So my tone will go down, but a good warm up and a first round will increase my tone.

          I couldnt ever train the day before a race.

          When would be he best time to have a massage pre-comp? And does a massage inccrease or decrease tone?

        • Participant
          Snoof on January 7, 2010 at 12:50 am #93275

          I try to have at least one training session after massage, two if possible.

          Massage decreases muscles tone.

        • Participant
          sizerp on January 7, 2010 at 1:43 am #93279

          This tone theory is really interesting

          I couldnt ever train the day before a race.

          A training session the day before a meet that counts is never the same as a regular training session. I usually either do just warmup, some drills and a couple of accelerations, or go to the weightroom and do 1-2 exercises for 3-4 sets at 50-75% of the usual weights I use, with focus on speed, mostly snatch and high box squat.

        • Participant
          Chad Williams on January 7, 2010 at 2:33 am #93280

          Couple of random thoughts on this.

          Most people will regulate tone fairly well just by doing some pretty common things without therapy. Working hard two days prior will have the greatest effect on muscle tone. Think of DOMS.

          I will work some athletes on this day, knowing that they have to go in and perform maximally in the prelims in order to make finals. The finals usually ends up being a decrease in performance but it is a trade-off we couldn’t go without.

          For most, we will have off two days prior and do an extended warm up the day before to slighty increase tone prior to the meet.

          I love it when I go to big meets and see jumpers taking attempts two days prior. IMO, it is the worst day to do this.

        • Participant
          Craig Pickering on January 7, 2010 at 2:51 am #93281

          The tone thing is something which comes up quite a bit of the Charlie Francis website, and in his books. For me, its something thats quite hard to monitor myself, and so I dont really bother thinking about it, as its just something else to worry about!

          Quite often, the day before a one off-race (i.e. a GP), I will do a jog and drills. I have found this prepares me better for the comp, but couldnt think why. Maybe it has a good effect on tone.

          Comparatively, I do usually train pretty hard 2 days pre-comp, usually doing blocks!

        • Participant
          Chad Williams on January 7, 2010 at 3:15 am #93283

          Tellez has a podcast on the canadian athletics coaching site where he talks about this issue. He is adamant about doing nothing two days prior.

          https://www.athleticscoaching.ca/?pid=11&spid=82&sspid=103

          Scroll down. I forget which podcast it is, but I love both of these talks.

          Ralph Mann is also going to confirm (in a few years) the issue he was talking about in regards to the block pedals and why your heel should always be able to pass beyond the block itself.

        • Participant
          Irish100m on January 7, 2010 at 5:01 am #93286

          Each to their own really, psychologically I need a rest before a meet, whereas someone else may want a couple of hard sessions to prepare.

          As Craig said though its another thing to worry about!

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on January 7, 2010 at 5:36 am #93289

          Awesome thanks guys…good info here…

          I agree with Craig, is does seem lime one more thing to worry about!…

          I much prefer a hard day 2 days before a meet and then jog and warm up the day before…works the best i believe.

          question again, how long or how much work does it take to increase tone? if someone feels fastest and sharpest during warm up and then not so much during the meet, could this be down to increased tone too much?

        • Participant
          Craig Pickering on January 7, 2010 at 7:06 am #93292

          Ralph Mann is also going to confirm (in a few years) the issue he was talking about in regards to the block pedals and why your heel should always be able to pass beyond the block itself.

          What issue is this? Tell me more!

        • Participant
          Chad Williams on January 7, 2010 at 7:51 am #93293

          Heel needs to be able to go past the block. Provides a greater stretch on the achilles and more powerful start. One of the reasons to why a lot of athletes have been putting their feet high on the blocks. The blocks are now taller and in order to get the stretch-reflex, the heel must be able to go beyond.

          The higher block limits the achilles’ ability to full stretch when the foot is in full contact.

          Also, the head should hang down between the arms and come up to neutral by the second step and the body should have a slight forward lean while resting in the blocks. Shins parallel.

          Kind of getting off topic here, but when do we ever stay on topic haha.

        • Participant
          mortac8 on January 7, 2010 at 8:21 am #93295

          Ralph Mann has some interesting information. Too bad he does not provide it freely. I asked him once if I could have one of his powerpoints and the answer was a quick ‘no’. Too bad as it’s good stuff.

        • Participant
          Josh Hurlebaus on January 7, 2010 at 9:32 am #93298

          Heel needs to be able to go past the block. Provides a greater stretch on the achilles and more powerful start. One of the reasons to why a lot of athletes have been putting their feet high on the blocks. The blocks are now taller and in order to get the stretch-reflex, the heel must be able to go beyond.

          The higher block limits the achilles’ ability to full stretch when the foot is in full contact.

          Also, the head should hang down between the arms and come up to neutral by the second step and the body should have a slight forward lean while resting in the blocks. Shins parallel.

          Kind of getting off topic here, but when do we ever stay on topic haha.

          Doesn’t the heel passing beyond the block reduce the initial impulse? Or does the elastic response of the achilles make up for the weaker immediate push later in the push off? Did my question make sense?

        • Participant
          Irish100m on January 7, 2010 at 10:16 am #93303

          Is it both heels that should be over the blocks, or just the back foot?

          Because I watched a video where Tom Tellez says the front toe should be curling onto the ground

        • Participant
          Chad Williams on January 7, 2010 at 11:01 am #93306

          Doesn’t the heel passing beyond the block reduce the initial impulse? Or does the elastic response of the achilles make up for the weaker immediate push later in the push off? Did my question make sense?

          Heel passing past the block akin to the counter-movement in a vertical. Try jumping as high as you can without a dip. The elastic response of the achilles is what everyone is after. The block actually impedes it by reducing the stretch.

        • Participant
          Josh Hurlebaus on January 7, 2010 at 11:11 am #93307

          So actually, given what Tellez says about the toes being curled onto the ground to help with optimum launch angle, the new high back blocks are actually worse that the standard ones?

        • Participant
          Chad Williams on January 7, 2010 at 11:13 am #93308

          Is it both heels that should be over the blocks, or just the back foot?

          Because I watched a video where Tom Tellez says the front toe should be curling onto the ground

          Both.

          That question was asked at the convention about the toe being on the ground. It was shot down. Foot on the block, heels need to be able to travel past.

        • Participant
          Irish100m on January 7, 2010 at 11:16 am #93310

          [quote author="Irish100m" date="1262839594"]Is it both heels that should be over the blocks, or just the back foot?

          Because I watched a video where Tom Tellez says the front toe should be curling onto the ground

          Both.

          That question was asked at the convention about the toe being on the ground. It was shot down. Foot on the block, heels need to be able to travel past.[/quote]

          So why is Tellez chatting shite then?

        • Participant
          Josh Hurlebaus on January 7, 2010 at 11:18 am #93312

          I’m not sure its shite. Its sure as hell worked for me the last few years. Just because it isn’t 100% optimal according to Mann doesn’t mean it isn’t consistently good.

        • Participant
          Irish100m on January 7, 2010 at 11:20 am #93314

          I dont know what to do now! Too much information coming my way!

        • Participant
          Chad Williams on January 7, 2010 at 11:36 am #93317

          Mann didn’t have the answers, he just had the model. He said the science will back it but that will be a few years away. It was one of the most informative seminars I have ever been to.

          I have some more scratch notes . . .

          Rear block should be steep angle. More of a horizontal push.

          Front block should be pretty much at 45. Optimal angle of vertical/horizontal forces.

          Acceleration mechanics mimic Max V mechanics in that the pushes are considered incomplete strides.

          After the initial push (first step) the stride rate is consistent throughout the race (longer GCT’s and short flight time to shorter GCT’s and longer flight time).

          There is zero correlation between reaction time and winning the race.

          In order to hit the positions of an optimal block start, the forces required are about 2.05% of your body weight.

        • Participant
          Josh Hurlebaus on January 7, 2010 at 1:56 pm #93325

          Is that 2.05% a mistyping of 205%, ie I would need give or take 360lbs of force for the right position?

          For accel he advocates incomplete pushes? More of a pick em up as soon as they hit type of process? That seems contrary to many videos, papers, etc that I’ve read for the first few pushes at least. I’ve always thought long and strong for the first few steps with decreasing emphasis on that as you progress throughout accel until you are upright and hitting straight down.

          Also did he mention what caliber athletes were used in this study?

          I know I’m asking alot of questions but this is a good conversation (in my mind at least, haha)

        • Participant
          Nick Newman on January 7, 2010 at 1:59 pm #93327

          How the heck did “your recovery process” turn into block starts ? ? ? ?

          Can anyone answer my questions a while back now regarding muscle tone?

        • Participant
          Josh Hurlebaus on January 7, 2010 at 2:14 pm #93328

          This question? Mort and Carl answered most of the tone questions before this one.

          “question again, how long or how much work does it take to increase tone? if someone feels fastest and sharpest during warm up and then not so much during the meet, could this be down to increased tone too much?”

          I would say that something like that could boil down to multiple factors, ranging from tone to endocrine/how pumped you are, to mental state, to caffeine level ^_^. There are a lot of variables and while tone is one of them I personally don’t think its the most important, since as Mort said it can be manipulated to some extent and managed during the meet.

          On a side note maybe a mod could split off the block starts convo into a separate thread. I’d like to continue it.

        • Participant
          cdnsprinter on January 7, 2010 at 3:46 pm #93333

          On a side note maybe a mod could split off the block starts convo into a separate thread. I’d like to continue it.

          actualy there is already a topic that discusses just that and some of the stuff mentionned here already, for those interested here it is:

          https://elitetrack.com/forums/viewthread/8708/

        • Participant
          utfootball4 on January 7, 2010 at 4:37 pm #93336

          This question? Mort and Carl answered most of the tone questions before this one.

          “question again, how long or how much work does it take to increase tone? if someone feels fastest and sharpest during warm up and then not so much during the meet, could this be down to increased tone too much?”

          I would say that something like that could boil down to multiple factors, ranging from tone to endocrine/how pumped you are, to mental state, to caffeine level ^_^. There are a lot of variables and while tone is one of them I personally don’t think its the most important, since as Mort said it can be manipulated to some extent and managed during the meet.

          On a side note maybe a mod could split off the block starts convo into a separate thread. I’d like to continue it.

          Only Mike can split threads.

        • Participant
          sizerp on January 7, 2010 at 7:21 pm #93338

          How the heck did “your recovery process” turn into block starts ? ? ? ?

          Heel recovery process 🙂

        • Participant
          Chad Williams on January 7, 2010 at 8:38 pm #93339

          Is that 2.05% a mistyping of 205%, ie I would need give or take 360lbs of force for the right position?

          For accel he advocates incomplete pushes? More of a pick em up as soon as they hit type of process? That seems contrary to many videos, papers, etc that I’ve read for the first few pushes at least. I’ve always thought long and strong for the first few steps with decreasing emphasis on that as you progress throughout accel until you are upright and hitting straight down.

          Also did he mention what caliber athletes were used in this study?

          I know I’m asking alot of questions but this is a good conversation (in my mind at least, haha)

          Yes to 205%. Sorry for the mistype.

          Ralph only studies the eilte.

          And yes, if you watch video of Powell or Bolt, they are not fully extending anywhere in the race. The pushes are longer due to the body angle, decreased flight time, but the nature of the recovery of the heel remains similar throughout the race.

        • Participant
          Jay Turner on July 4, 2010 at 10:01 am #99917

          ” date=”1262683823″]Sort of. When any given muscle is soft, generally the tone is low. When that same muscle is firmer, the tone is higher.

          Ugh…words… There is an ideal level of tone for “performance”. For example, if you take 3 days off, generally your tone will be low. If you run 3 60s, your tone will rise after each round and your performance will generally increase each round. When a given athlete’s tone becomes too high, race 4,5,6 their performance may plateau then tail off due to a progressive reduction of unfired fibers available to be used.

          So lets say for example, that an athlete had a two day meet, with prelims/semis on day one, and finals on the second day. Would it be good to take three days off before day one of the meet?

        • Participant
          Jay Turner on July 4, 2010 at 10:04 am #99918

          ” date=”1262683823″]Less dominant sprinters in the Olympics generally search for ideal tone via whatever means (explosive/gassing-it-up warmup) for the first round. Their tone is optimal for that first round while Usain Bolt’s tone is probably quite low. In this case, during the second round, the lesser sprinter’s tone is probably now too high (not ideal) and they do not improve upon the first round time. At the same time Usain’s tone is still rising to the appropriate levels in preparation for the final.

          During warmup, should the buildups/accelerations/striders (whatever you would tend to call them) be nice and easy, or fairly fast? In other words, at what pace is optimal?

        • Participant
          Irish100m on February 22, 2011 at 12:43 am #105673

          My recovery process is fairly basic;

          Immediately post session – Protein/carb shake
          Approx 20/30 mins post session – Chocolate milk and high protein/carb meal
          Approx an hour/2hour post session – Green or Redbush tea (antioxidants)
          Bed time – ZMA
          Sleep!

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